Free will in the Ane-Nicean Fathers

F

fltom

Well-known member
In the beginning, He made the human race with the power of thought and of choosing the truth and doing right, so that all men are without excuse before God. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.172.

Lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever occurs happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Now, if this is not so, but all things happen by fate, then neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it is predetermined that this man will be good, and this other man will be evil, neither is the first one meritorious nor the latter man to be blamed. And again, unless the human race has the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions. Justin Martyr (c. 160, E), 1.177.



Edit cut and paste violation


Dictionary of early Christian beliefs

End pt 1
 
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Can you justify your assumptions please and demonstrate how they are not contradictory to foundational verses that state clearly that nothing in the universe functions independent from God…

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”

 
the real question is..
who is your deity...

because if you are IN Him,
listening and obeying Him then your choices are sane..
as well, whatever He decides is Sane...

and if you are in the Carnal Mind (=entities)
then every choice made by man will be depraved...
as well, whatever such demons 'determine' is depraved...

Using terms like free will or determinism means nothing
unless the context of the choices and of the 'determinism' is understood.
 
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Sketo said:
Can you justify your assumptions please and demonstrate how they are not contradictory to foundational verses that state clearly that nothing in the universe functions independent from God…

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”

Click to expand...
Not one of those things states God cannot make creatures with a limited free will

Your view is an oddity throughout all Orthodox Christ history. Even most all Calvinist Compatibilist and hard determinists hold Adam and Eve possessed free will. Your view mirrors that of the Gnostics and the Manicheans
 
fltom said:
Not one of those things states God cannot make creatures with a limited free will
Click to expand...

Can your heart beat again without God first determining it to beat again?

Can a neuron in your brain fire again without God first determining it to fire again?

Can your will function into the next state of being without God first determining it to function into the next state of being?

Again… Can you justify your assumptions please and demonstrate how they are not contradictory to foundational verses that state clearly nothing in the universe functions independent from God…

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”

God is before every meticulous part that makes up you.
God upholds all things that make up you every moment of your existence.
God holds every meticulous molecule of you together moving each one into its next state of being.

God cannot make any meticulous part of a creature free from this foundational declaration without it being a contradiction…

If you are going to claim otherwise then the burden is on you to justify your claim.

fltom said:
Even most all Calvinist Compatibilist and hard determinists hold Adam and Eve possessed free will.
Click to expand...

It depends on your reference point for “free” and if you can justify that reference point. (See video above).

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”

…
 
Sketo said:
Can you justify your assumptions please and demonstrate how they are not contradictory to foundational verses that state clearly that nothing in the universe functions independent from God…

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”

Click to expand...

We can't escape God's presence. So those scriptures don't deny libertarian freedom in God. And He still upholds us.
 
Kampioen said:
We can't escape God's presence.
Click to expand...

Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

You did not address the God is before all things part. What would you say is not included in “all things”?

Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”

You did not address the live, move, have our being part either.

Why???‍♂️

Kampioen said:
So those scriptures don't deny (Without God) freedom in God. And He still upholds us.
Click to expand...

Do you agree that God chooses to uphold us even while we are sinning?

Do you agree that God chooses to uphold Satan while he tempted Jesus?

?What would happen if God chose to not uphold any part of us at any moment?
 
Sketo said:
Can your heart beat again without God first determining it to beat again?

Can a neuron in your brain fire again without God first determining it to fire again?

Can your will function into the next state of being without God first determining it to function into the next state of being?

Again… Can you justify your assumptions please and demonstrate how they are not contradictory to foundational verses that state clearly nothing in the universe functions independent from God…

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”

God is before every meticulous part that makes up you.
God upholds all things that make up you every moment of your existence.
God holds every meticulous molecule of you together moving each one into its next state of being.

God cannot make any meticulous part of a creature free from this foundational declaration without it being a contradiction…

If you are going to claim otherwise then the burden is on you to justify your claim.


It depends on your reference point for “free” and if you can justify that reference point. (See video above).

Hebrews 1:3 “he upholds the universe by the word of his power.”
Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”
Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”
Click to expand...

Independence form God doesn't mean independent from something He didn't allow to happen. If it was not permitted then it wouldn't happen. It simply means nonpredetermined free choice like God has.
 
Kampioen said:
Independence form God doesn't mean independent from something He didn't allow to happen. If it was not permitted then it wouldn't happen. It simply means nonpredetermined free choice like God has.
Click to expand...

“Independence form God doesn't mean independent from…”

Your unjustified “allow” view is in direct contradiction to the very non-independent view you are affirming.

Remember God is upholding, sustaining “all things” moment by moment therefore what are you adding to this “all things” such that God can be merely “allowing” it. It’s an illogical unjustified assumption.

Justify your assumptions please.

God is the Ultimate source of all things. This is an attribute of God that is not transferable. God can not create another self-sufficient anything.

“Allow” is not allowed by scripture.

…
 
Sketo said:
“Independence form God doesn't mean independent from…”

Your unjustified “allow” view is in direct contradiction to the very non-independent view you are affirming.

Remember God is upholding, sustaining “all things” moment by moment therefore what are you adding to this “all things” such that God can be merely “allowing” it. It’s an illogical unjustified assumption.

Justify your assumptions please.

God is the Ultimate source of all things. This is an attribute of God that is not transferable. God can not create another self-sufficient anything.

“Allow” is not allowed by scripture.

…
Click to expand...
Did Adam and Eve have free will?
 
Sketo said:
Colossians 1:17 “he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.”

You did not address the God is before all things part. What would you say is not included in “all things”?
Click to expand...

Which libertarian choices we would make. The all things doesn't have to mean there aren't scriptural contextual exceptions. All have sinned but that doesn't mean Jesus sinned.

Acts 17:28 “In him we live and move and have our being”

You did not address the live, move, have our being part either.

Why???‍♂️
Click to expand...

That we live, move and have our being in God doesn't prove that we don't libertarianly move around in whatever space we have.

Do you agree that God chooses to uphold us even while we are sinning?
Click to expand...

Yes.

Do you agree that God chooses to uphold Satan while he tempted Jesus?
Click to expand...

Yes.

?What would happen if God chose to not uphold any part of us at any moment?
Click to expand...

Perhaps be crippled or die. If it was ceasing the option of choice then perhaps we would freeze indecisively and die or cease to exist. Whatever rules God has for such circumstances.
 
Sketo said:
“Independence form God doesn't mean independent from…”

Your unjustified “allow” view is in direct contradiction to the very non-independent view you are affirming.

Remember God is upholding, sustaining “all things” moment by moment therefore what are you adding to this “all things” such that God can be merely “allowing” it. It’s an illogical unjustified assumption.

Justify your assumptions please.

God is the Ultimate source of all things. This is an attribute of God that is not transferable. God can not create another self-sufficient anything.

“Allow” is not allowed by scripture.
Click to expand...

All have sinned excludes Jesus from the all. So the all things by God can have an exception. So man's libertarian deliberation can be excluded from the all things performed by God and permitted to man himself, not to a supposed uncreated power outside of God.
 
fltom said:
Not one of those things states God cannot make creatures with a limited free will

Your view is an oddity throughout all Orthodox Christ history. Even most all Calvinist Compatibilist and hard determinists hold Adam and Eve possessed free will. Your view mirrors that of the Gnostics and the Manicheans
Click to expand...
"Limited" free will by its own definition is not free will and the fact is many do not understand the term. One has to make choices and all choices are influenced but that is not how free will is defined. There is no problem with the fact that God determines all things good or bad but the problem is "free will" is incorrectly defined! Holding on to the concept of free will and leaving out the word "free" is the problem. Understanding what free means will negate the definition because a "free" will is completely impossible. Now God can do all things but God does not because God is not "free" to do so. God has imposed limitations upon himself! Thus, God does not have "free will." Not only does God limit himself God is also influenced and in many ways not because of man but because of himself.

God bless you,

SeventhDay
 
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SeventhDay said:
"Limited" free will by its own definition if not free will and the fact is many do not understand the term. One has to make choices and all choices are influenced but that is not how free will is defined. There is no problem with the fact that God determines all things good or bad but the problem is "free will" is incorrectly defined! Holding on to the concept of free will and leaving out the word "free" is the problem. Understanding what free means will negate the definition because a "free" will is completely impossible. Now God can do all things but God does not because God is not "free" to do so. God has imposed limitations upon himself! Thus, God does not have "free will." Not only does God limit himself God is also influenced and in many ways not because of man but because of himself.

God bless you,

SeventhDay
Click to expand...
They will soon make a Calvinist out of you ?
 
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