God is love. He created people with free will, with the capacity to love Him back. Or not. People are not God’s playthings that He programs to jump through hoops for His amusement.
FREEWILL AS TAUGHT IN SCRIPTURE
- Thread starter fltom
- Start date
Crazy Ivan
Well-known member
If you look at my thought experiment that I posted earlier, it has to be the case that one possible world in a libertarian free will scheme is that Adam and Eve did not sin. In this world they made the free choice to nor give in to the temptation. This, no fall of mankind and it’s catastrophic consequences.
So why didn’t God choose to create the world where Adam and Eve made the free choice to not sin? Why create the world where they did sin?
Again, God gave His created beings free will. Eve was deceived, but Adam willfully sinned. I do not believe that it was God's plan for Adam to sin, but He prepared for the contingency that they might.
Theo1689
Well-known member
Where is this taught in the Bible?
Chapter and verse, please...
Where is this taught in the Bible?
Chapter and verse, please...
Well, your rhetorical wording notwithstanding, are you able to exegete Rom. 9:11-24 for us?
Crazy Ivan
Well-known member
So why did God choose to make this specific world in which Adam sinned when there was a possible world He could have made in which Adam, exercising his free will, did not sin?
Why choose this world where Adam’s free choice was to sin, when God could have made a world where Adam’s free choice was to not sin?
Why stop there?
Why ignore Paul's summary statement?
Romans 9:30–32 (ESV) — 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousness did not succeed in reaching that law. 32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works. They have stumbled over the stumbling stone,
After all he cannot contradict his summary statement, and from that summary statement it can be seen Israel's problem was not unconditional election but rather a desire to establish their own righteous instead of appropriating the righteous that comes through faith.
Theo1689
Well-known member
So you SKIP OVER Rom. 9:11-24, because you don't like what it teaches.
Thank you for the admission.
You seem to be having a reading difficulty
I stated nothing about skipping over those verses. i just noted it cannot contradict Paul's summary statement
And Paul summary statement shows the Jew's problem was not unconditional election to conversion but a lack of faith and a desire to establish their own self-righteousness.
So, if you interpret Rom 9;11-24 in a manner contrary to that, it is an error.
PS your theology holds the Jews problem was unconditional election to conversion
So, when I say it was not, I am contradicting your theology
but if you want to thank me for contradicting your theology
you are welcome, Happy to do it.
Theo1689
Well-known member
No, you are the one with the reading difficulty.
I never claimed you "stated" that you skipped over anything.
I correctly observed that you DID skip over it.
"Skipping" denotes an action, not an assertion.
And regardless of whether you claimed to skip it or not skip it, your ACTIONS denoted that you DID skip it.
And this is one of the reasons why interacting with you is so incredibly distasteful.
So here's the thing...
First of all, Paul's "summary statement" made absolutely NO mention of "unconditional election", to be able to deny it.
Secondly, you are trying to pit Scripture against Scripture. You are trying to appeal to Rom. 9:30ff to try to claim that Rom. 9:11-24 is false. Now you will never admit that, of course, but that is precisely what you are doing.
You are trying to interpret Rom. 9:30ff WITHOUT first addressing Rom. 9:11-24, but the fact of the matter is that Paul wrote 11-24 PRIOR to 30ff, and that means is that he expected his readers to read 11-24 BEFORE reading 30ff, which you refuse to do.
You want to project a meaning onto 30ff that contradicts what Paul already wrote, which is why you don't want to address 9:11-24 until AFTER you have projected your false theology onto 30ff.
I am more than happy to discuss 30ff with you, but you FIRST have to address what came before.
And you refuse to do that, because it contradicts your false theology.
Except that you are trying to project a meaning onto 30ff that is CONTRADICTORY to what Paul already wrote in 11-24.
I really don't care if you "contradict" my theology.
Because you have ZERO authority.
GIven a choice between the Bible and you, I choose the Bible every day of the week, and twice on Sundays.
Why would I want to "thank" you for contradicting the Bible?!
You really have an over-inflated opinion of yourself.
Sadly, I know you are happy to contradict the Bible.
More's the pity.
sorry I skipped nothing but questioned why you stopped short of Paul's summary statement
and noted your interpretation is contrary to it
You did nothing to dispel that fact
Wake up Theo
He noted Israel problem was a lack of faith and a desire to establish their own righteousness
Theo
Secondly, you are trying to pit Scripture against Scripture. You are trying to appeal to Rom. 9:30ff to try to claim that Rom. 9:11-24 is false. Now you will never admit that, of course, but that is precisely what you are doing.
Sorry you are very confused
i never stated Rom 9:11-24 is false
Rom 9:11-24 is true
your interpretation of it however is false
again the Issue was your failure to include Rom 9:30FF
It contradicts your interpretation of Rom 9:11-24
I have interpreted Rom 9:11-24 many times so you make another false claim
sorry Theo Rom 9:30 is quite plain in its meaning and you have done nothing at all to show i falsely interpreted it
and is confirmed in both Rom 10 and 11
Romans 10:16–21 (ESV) — 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. 18 But I ask, have they not heard? Indeed they have, for “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the world.” 19 But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 Then Isaiah is so bold as to say, “I have been found by those who did not seek me; I have shown myself to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But of Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.”
Romans 11:20–23 (ESV) — 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. 22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Unconditional election and reprobation of eternal destinies is clearly unbiblical
Theo1689
Well-known member
Whats is anti Christian is your snark and stealth insults
Scripture refuted you
Romans 9:30–32 (UASV) — 30 What shall we say, then? That Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness have attained righteousness, even the righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. 32 Why is that? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
Israel's lack of faith is why they failed to obtain righteousness
Romans 10:18–21 (UASV) — 18 But I say, surely, they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have. “Their voice has gone out to all the earth, and their words to the ends of the inhabited earth.” 19 But I say, Israel did not know, did they? First, Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will make you angry.” 20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, “I was found by those who did not seek me; I became manifest to those who did not ask for me.” 21 But as for Israel he says, “All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and obstinate people.”
and that despite God's outreach
Romans 11:19–23 (UASV) — 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become haughty, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you, either. 22 See then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
God makes it clear their failure was due to a lack of faith but states they had the option of remaining not in unbelief in which they would be grafted back in.
Clearly faith was the condition required to be grafted back in and it was within their capability