God cannot know the unknowable

CookedGoose said:
So you're admitting God is both wrathful and jealous, not just loving.

I would even argue it was part of His larger redemptive plan for all humanity.
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Unchecked Copy Box
1Jo 4:8 -
armylngst said:
Ah, so you are into easy believism, a crossless salvation (we don't have to take up our cross and follow HIm) etc. It isn't that it isn't enough to believe in Jesus, it is that there is so much packaged into the few words.
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easy believism = winning the heavenly lottery known as Calvinism. Didn’t have to believe to win the lottery , don’t have to have faith, don’t have to do ANYTHING except be elected.
 
Simpletruther said:
Puppets do not have wills and desires so no we are not puppets.

I do wish to point out that God is sovereign.

Just as He directs the hearts of kings like rivers of water, He hardened Pharoah, Like He gives life to the dead, He blinded Isreal etc.

Men cannot resist the will of God.
Who are you to question Him If He finds fault. We are like clay in His hands as He makes us into His vessels.
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Let's get it in order.

Man can not resist *the results* of God's sovereignty.

God will allow man to choose freely in order to establish those consequences God decides upon.

Example... Pharaoh charging his army into the parted Red sea.
They could not *resist* the consequence for their own choice..
God did not make them charge ahead. But, God made them die.
 
Simpletruther said:
Men cannot resist the will of God.
Who are you to question Him If He finds fault. We are like clay in His hands as He makes us into His vessels.
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You are just repeating what you have been told while not having enough Bible doctrine to think with balance.

Then, you had to stop thinking in order to create the illusion that you are being strong in your faith.

Men can and do resist the will of God all the time!

“‘Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me?
says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?
Has not my hand made all these things?’
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised.
You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Acts 7:49-51



Now.. Careful not to *resist* what that says!

Ironically.... Hyper Calvinists resist God's Word all the time!

And, the Word is God!
 
Stubborn = strong in faith.

translation?

"I do not want to think!

.... This is all too complicated for me!"
 
armylngst said:
However, the fictional stories are not automatons or robots. They are living a life, it is just that someone made it up.
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Sure they're automations. How could you say they're not? If I write a story of fictional character which I have, I used to write plays, some performed in front of audiences, I controlled everything. Every thought they had and word they spoke came from me. They didn't do anything not anything I didn't script. I mean you're really trying to push that God can script someone's life EVERYTHING that happens and say well God didn't do it. The characters did it themselves. No way doesn't make sense.
armylngst said:
The characters are still fleshed out, and live life making decisions in the same way a living person would, in their story. You do understand that the reason that there can be twists and turns in a story is because the characters aren't robots, so they aren't walking a predetermined path that never changes. The characters have depth.
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The writer of the story still made it that way.
armylngst said:
They don't have to be. Fictional stories play out the same as non-fiction stories except that the fictional stories didn't actually happen. If you fail to understand that that means the characters in the fiction stories are not automatons and robots, since the story plays out the same way a non-fiction story does... that's not my problem, that is yours.
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What concerns me Armylgnst is that you're really believe what you are saying.
armylngst said:
Actually, if someone is crying for a fictional character, in many cases, everyone else is crying to. (I only bring this one up, because there was an anime that was so deep, people laughed when the blue ray sales came with tissues with the characters on them, until they actually needed them. If you didn't cry, you weren't human. Sure, the writers cheated by putting every possible heart rending thing possible into the story, which would be why it hit everyone so deep. Disney learned it with Snow White, with the original release. People actually related fully to the characters, because they were so fleshed out, they didn't notice the animation anymore. People cried over a cartoon. That was basically unheard of at the time.
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Sure I like a good tear jerker too. But none of it is real friend.
armylngst said:
The universe, the situations characters found themselves in, what actually occurred when characters interacted, resulted in a complete change of the story. Why? In the actual telling, the flow of events, based not on the authors thoughts, but on the environment of the story, wound up going in a completely different way,
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I read a book called "Inkheart" once by Cornelia Maria Funke. Pretty good story and was made into a movie. It had fictional character from books coming into our real world and one of them has an argument with the author of the book he was in. Ended up the character was able to break what the author wrote about his demise when he went back to his fictional world. You see you Calvinists believe everything is ordained every action and thought of everything with no way to change anything. Unless you can bring yourself to the place as acknowledging that people aren't governed by a script with everything in their lives then you do believe the human race is automations. You have no other solution except to accept that. (which isn't the way that God is by the way)
 
CookedGoose said:
True, but He does give grace. He gives it abundantly, enough to make it irresistible. With this (irresistible) grace we believe and repent on our own.
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Jesus paid for our grace through our believing and placing our faith in Him. God does NOT make you believe nor does He repent for you.
 
armylngst said:
As I read it, I'm not sure what I was writing, though that is what I am saying. I think it is the issue where I am thinking one thing, but there are other things hanging on in my mind, and it got mixed in, and I didn't notice. I have caught myself doing the whole type by word thing, and noticed that the words I was typing was not the word I was thinking, and notice it was some other stream of thought I had beneath the surface. It was rather disorienting.
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No worries. We've all done it including I.
armylngst said:
Do I say that an Arminian has succumbed to a wrong way of thinking? No. I say they just haven't grown up yet.
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I'm not offended if someone says I've succumbed to a wrong way of thinking. I just say OK show me where and let me assess what you're saying with the WORD of God. Words affect us all different, I guess. As for me I'd be more offended if someone claimed I just haven't' grown up.
armylngst said:
It is not. Your words go to show that you have not given God the proper respect of studying Him a part from man. There was a pastor who wrote his systematic theology, and put it best when he said that no one studies God properly anymore. They study man, and then the study God from the point of man and in relation to man, when there is no such thing.
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Well I don't know. I'd have to read what the other person wrote. I'm sure such a criticism could be right at times but other times not.

armylngst said:
You really don't listen to Calvinists do you?
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Not sure I know what you mean that I don't listen to Calvinists. Let me make one thing clear I've listened to a lot of preachers who on paper are Calvinists but I listen to some of there sermons outside of the TULIP subject and very good Bible teachers that I've been blessed by. Plus many of my friends from years gone by were Calvinistic in their thinking. They'd go to our companies Bible studies every noon hour and we'd have blessed good times of edification. Anyway God Bless! :)
 
GeneZ said:
You are just repeating what you have been told while not having enough Bible doctrine to think with balance.

Then, you had to stop thinking in order to create the illusion that you are being strong in your faith.

Men can and do resist the will of God all the time!

“‘Heaven is my throne,
and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me?
says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be?
Has not my hand made all these things?’
“You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised.
You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Acts 7:49-51



Now.. Careful not to *resist* what that says!

Ironically.... Hyper Calvinists resist God's Word all the time!

And, the Word is God!
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The Holy Spirit convicts men of sin, and they resist this conviction. That in no way is outside the soveriegn will of God.

The word of God goes out in power and spirit, and it accomplishes it's purpose. It does not come back void. Just as the gospel is the smell of death to those perishing.

Of course people can and do resist God's revealed moral will in the law, even constantly.
But none resist his soveriengn will of decree.
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
Jesus paid for our grace through our believing and placing our faith in Him. God does NOT make you believe nor does He repent for you.
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Acts 11/18 Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.
So God grants repentance, should be simple enough to understand.

Acts 17/30 But now He commands all people everywhere to repent.
He also commands all people to repent.

Weird how it's both a gift and a command isn't it? Kinda like the Mosaic law or (the other covenant)
 
CookedGoose said:
Acts 11/18 Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life.
So God grants repentance, should be simple enough to understand.

Acts 17/30 But now He commands all people everywhere to repent.
He also commands all people to repent.

Weird how it's both a gift and a command isn't it? Kinda like the Mosaic law or (the other covenant)
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Granted repentance= Provided the means of salvation I.e. Jesus /gave an invitation to believe the truth / gave the requirements 1. Believe 2. Place your faith in Jesus 3. Repent 4. Follow Jesus.
 
GeneZ said:
Let's get it in order.

Man can not resist *the results* of God's sovereignty.

God will allow man to choose freely in order to establish those consequences God decides upon.

Example... Pharaoh charging his army into the parted Red sea.
They could not *resist* the consequence for their own choice..
God did not make them charge ahead. But, God made them die.
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His heart was hardened.....so that....
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
You have it backwards I.e. no faith no grace. God does NOT believe nor repent for YOU.
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Please,, pardon me .....

"No grace = no faith." That is the order.

Faith is what we choose to believe. " Faith comes by hearing the word of God." (Romans 10:17)

If there was no grace? And, our fallen nature remained dominating over our soul? Our soul could never believe the Word of God.

If God did not suppress our sin nature (done by grace)? Our souls would remain enslaved to the flesh. Then no one could have faith.
No one would believe.

Grace precedes any opportunity to make a decision required by God. With the sin nature suppressed, it then becomes our choice!
 
Simpletruther said:
His heart was hardened.....so that....
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Hardening of the heart is building up callouses on one's soul.

The heart is the part of our soul where we keep our convictions and values.

Callouses become built up by constant friction and resistance!

Calluses cause us to become numb to the area of resistance and friction.

That is why Jesus said they are dull/calloused of heart.

For this people’s heart has become calloused/dull; they hardly hear with their ears,
and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear
with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.’

Matthew 13:15
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
Granted repentance= Provided the means of salvation I.e. Jesus /gave an invitation to believe the truth / gave the requirements 1. Believe 2. Place your faith in Jesus 3. Repent 4. Follow Jesus.
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If __________ God grants repentance = providing the means of salvation = repentance
Then ______ God grants repentance

This is referred to as a causal chain. Btw "Belief" and "placing your faith in Jesus" are the same thing.
 
Leatherneck0311 said:
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Many of them will be ashamed after they die to find themselves in Heaven.

Having zero eternal rewards....

But, having a beautiful resurrection body. Ashamed of how they failed the Lord until He wipes away every tear.



11 Here is a trustworthy saying:

If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself."

2 Tim 2:11-13
 
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