God saves unbelievers ...

Howie said:
Tom is so dense he doesn't realize I my Bible in my position, he doesn't. ??
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Is that english?


In any case Howie has erased faith and believe from scripture

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believe on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


you erased believe from the verse

and these verses l

Romans 3:26–30 (ESV) — 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

you also erased faith from scripture
 
fltom said:
Is that english?


In any case Howie has erased faith and believe from scripture

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believe on Him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.


you erased believe from the verse

and these verses l

Romans 3:26–30 (ESV) — 26 It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus. 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. 29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, 30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

you also erased faith from scripture
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All of those verses are completely true; and not one of them erases the following truth:

Major Premise: Believing is godly.
Minor Premise: "God saves the ungodly." Rom 4:5
Conclusion: God saves unbelievers. Rom 4:5.

It'a a timing thing, champ, as I explained to you earlier in the day. You don't have what it takes understand it. ? God's justification of the unbeliever -- starts the time of the believer.

I was saved in the past, I am being saved presently, I will be finally saved in the future. <----------- that is God saving the believer -- truth sails right over Tom's head.

Pray for him.
 
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Kampioen said:
A man is still ungodly while he wants to be saved but he must want it and he must know that faith is all it takes. But a man can't save himself. But God saves a man by the time he believes, so faith and salvation occur simultaneously.

Acts 16: 30 (KJV) And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

Acts 16:31 A(KJV) And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house."
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Yes, it all happens quickly, starting with God justiifying the ungodly, which is logical, and what scripture states.

@fltom
 
Howie said:
Yes, it all happens quickly, starting with God justiifying the ungodly, which is logical, and what scripture states.

@fltom
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Duh, one must believe before being justified

Romans 3:26–30 (KJV 1900) — 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

@Howie is opposed to scripture and willing to either add or subtract from it whatever his theology needs
 
Howie said:
All of those verses are completely true; and not one of them erases the following truth:

Major Premise: Believing is godly.
Minor Premise: "God saves the ungodly." Rom 4:5
Conclusion: God saves unbelievers. Rom 4:5.

It'a a timing thing, champ, as I explained to you earlier in the day. You don't have what it takes understand it. ? God's justification of the unbeliever -- starts the time of the believer.

I was saved in the past, I am being saved presently, I will be finally saved in the future. <----------- that is God saving the believer -- truth sails right over Tom's head.

Pray for him.
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Duh they all do

God saves believers and God justifies believers,

He does not save unbelievers nor does he justify them

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Unbelievers are not saved.

add to that the fact your major premise is defective

One is not godly until his sins are forgiven, and he is saved from them

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

here man is both a believer and ungodly

it is believers who he justifies

Romans 3:26–30 (KJV 1900) — 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Verse after verse refutes his theology yet he is so possessed by the TULIP he cannot see it.
 
Howie said:
For the reader.
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Here is what scripture really states



Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Unbelievers are not saved.

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

Only believers are justified, that is those with faith

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 3:26–30 (KJV 1900) — 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

@Howie would excise the words believe and faith in scripture and replace them with unbelief, and a lack of faith
 
fltom said:
Duh they all do

God saves believers and God justifies believers,

He does not save unbelievers nor does he justify them

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Unbelievers are not saved.

add to that the fact your major premise is defective

One is not godly until his sins are forgiven, and he is saved from them

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

here man is both a believer and ungodly

it is believers who he justifies

Romans 3:26–30 (KJV 1900) — 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Verse after verse refutes his theology yet he is so possessed by the TULIP he cannot see it.
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God saves believers is oxymoronic. Believers are already saved.
 
Howie said:
God saves believers is oxymoronic. Believers are already saved.
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Howie insults the word of God

God saves believers and God justifies believers,

He does not save unbelievers nor does he justify them

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Unbelievers are not saved.

add to that the fact your major premise is defective

One is not godly until his sins are forgiven, and he is saved from them

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

here man is both a believer and ungodly

it is believers who he justifies

Romans 3:26–30 (KJV 1900) — 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Verse after verse refutes his theology yet he is so possessed by the TULIP he cannot see it.

and argues for what never appears in scripture
 
fltom said:
Howie insults the word of God

God saves believers and God justifies believers,

He does not save unbelievers nor does he justify them

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Unbelievers are not saved.

add to that the fact your major premise is defective

One is not godly until his sins are forgiven, and he is saved from them

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

here man is both a believer and ungodly

it is believers who he justifies

Romans 3:26–30 (KJV 1900) — 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Verse after verse refutes his theology yet he is so possessed by the TULIP he cannot see it.

and argues for what never appears in scripture
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Tom, you are clearly denying that God justifies the the ungodly because of your hard and prideful heart that also denies its own depravity. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


You're denying the first step, Tom -- justifying the ungodly.
 
Howie said:
Tom, you are clearly denying that God justifies the the ungodly because of your hard and prideful heart that also denies its own depravity. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯


You're denying the first step, Tom -- justifying the ungodly.
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Howie fabricates

God does justify the ungodly when they believe

Howie insults the word of God

God saves believers and God justifies believers,

He does not save unbelievers nor does he justify them

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Unbelievers are not saved.

add to that the fact your major premise is defective

One is not godly until his sins are forgiven, and he is saved from them

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

here man is both a believer and ungodly

it is believers who he justifies

Romans 3:26–30 (KJV 1900) — 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Verse after verse refutes his theology yet he is so possessed by the TULIP he cannot see it.

and argues for what never appears in scripture
 
fltom said:
Howie fabricates

God does justify the ungodly when they believe

Howie insults the word of God

God saves believers and God justifies believers,

He does not save unbelievers nor does he justify them

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Unbelievers are not saved.

add to that the fact your major premise is defective

One is not godly until his sins are forgiven, and he is saved from them

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

here man is both a believer and ungodly

it is believers who he justifies

Romans 3:26–30 (KJV 1900) — 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Verse after verse refutes his theology yet he is so possessed by the TULIP he cannot see it.

and argues for what never appears in scripture
Click to expand...
Your prideful heart is hardened against God, Tom. You resent His declaring you, "totally depraved," on account of the fall.
 
Howie said:
Your prideful heart is hardened against God, Tom. You resent His declaring you, "totally depraved," on account of the fall.
Click to expand...
Howie as usual fails to address scripture

Howie fabricates

God does justify the ungodly when they believe

Howie insults the word of God

God saves believers and God justifies believers,

He does not save unbelievers nor does he justify them

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Unbelievers are not saved.

add to that the fact your major premise is defective

One is not godly until his sins are forgiven, and he is saved from them

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

here man is both a believer and ungodly

it is believers who he justifies

Romans 3:26–30 (KJV 1900) — 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Verse after verse refutes his theology yet he is so possessed by the TULIP he cannot see it.

and argues for what never appears in scripture
 
fltom said:
Howie as usual fails to address scripture

Howie fabricates

God does justify the ungodly when they believe

Howie insults the word of God

God saves believers and God justifies believers,

He does not save unbelievers nor does he justify them

Acts 16:30–31 (KJV 1900) — 30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? 31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Romans 10:9 (KJV 1900) — 9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 (KJV 1900) — 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

2 Thessalonians 2:10 (KJV 1900) — 10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

John 3:16–18 (KJV 1900) — 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 3:36 (KJV 1900) — 36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Unbelievers are not saved.

add to that the fact your major premise is defective

One is not godly until his sins are forgiven, and he is saved from them

Romans 4:5 (KJV 1900) — 5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

here man is both a believer and ungodly

it is believers who he justifies

Romans 3:26–30 (KJV 1900) — 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

Verse after verse refutes his theology yet he is so possessed by the TULIP he cannot see it.

and argues for what never appears in scripture
Click to expand...
You're continuing in your unbelief because your prideful heart is hardened against God, Tom. You resent His declaring you, "totally depraved," on account of the fall.

Major Premise: Believing is godly.
Minor Premise: "God saves the ungodly." Rom
Conclusion: God saves unbelievers. Rom 4:5.

You cannot defeat God's word, but only prove its truth through the demonstration of your own depravity in your denial of truth.

You deny God's first step -- justifying the ungodly.
 
Kampioen said:
God saved them the moment they believed. So you won't find an unsaved believer, even momentarily. But it is because of their belief that God saved them.
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Thanks for finally agreeing with God that He justifies the ungodly (Rom 4:5).

That is God's first step of conversion and rescuing the ungodly from the domain of darkness into the Kingdom of Christ (Col 1:13)

@Slyzr @fltom
 
Howie said:
Thanks for finally agreeing with God that He justifies the ungodly (Rom 4:5).

That is God's first step of conversion and rescuing the ungodly from the domain of darkness into the Kingdom of Christ (Col 1:13)
Click to expand...

But God doesn't give them faith. He just saves them by the time they believe it on their own, ie justifies the ungodly by the time they believe. You assume that God unilaterally gave them faith, whiich is an error.
 
Kampioen said:
But God doesn't give them faith.
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Scripture says faith is a gift (Eph 2:8-9). That raises the question, "a gift from whom?" Scripture answers the question, "faith is a gift from God" (Eph 2:9).

That raises another question, "why must God gift men with faith?" Scripture answers that question -- God has determined that men will have no faith of their own because of their proclivity to self deception and sinfully puffing up themselves and boasting falsely of their righteousness and goodness. Therefore, one learns man has no faith of his own because, by nature, man is a self righteous exaggerator and boaster in all his abilities, even salvation.

God makes sure no one will successfully boast of having a hand in their salvation.



Kampioen said:
He just saves them by the time they believe it on their own, ie justifies the ungodly by the time they believe. You assume that God unilaterally gave them faith, whiich is an error.
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You prove my above point.
 
Howie said:
Thanks for finally agreeing with God that He justifies the ungodly (Rom 4:5).

That is God's first step of conversion and rescuing the ungodly from the domain of darkness into the Kingdom of Christ (Col 1:13)

@Slyzr @fltom
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Twisting words again?

The ungodly are justified when they believe, not when they are in unbelief

Romans 3:26–30 (KJV 1900) — 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

seems @Howie has a disdain for God's word
 
fltom said:
Twisting words again?

The ungodly are justified when they believe, not when they are in unbelief

Romans 3:26–30 (KJV 1900) — 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

seems @Howie has a disdain for God's word
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Major Premise: Believing is godly.
Minor Premise: "God saves the ungodly." Rom
Conclusion: God saves unbelievers. Rom 4:5.

Still waiting for you to disprove my syllogism and its scriptural support.


note everyone the difference between what God says in Rom 4:5, and what Tom hears God saying in Rom 4:5.

Someone is influencing Tom away from God's word ... "did God say, 'He is the justifier of the ungodly in Rom 4:5?' ... surely He didn't mean that." -- sound familiar?
 
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