Here is a good question for those who believe in a pre trib rapture?

[Yahweh will increase]

Do you know how many people here claim that what they believe was revealed to them by the Spirit?

And how does that matter when Paul in 1 Corinthians chapters 1-3 and especailly chapter 2:13-16 very clearly tells us that this is the way we are to know the truth and whether what we are being taught is true or not.

It doesn't matter what lots of people claim to do but only what you do and what I do, for God soon enough will reveal what those other people were doing and whether they were just claiming it or actually doing it.

So why do you think that should matter?

Don't you realize that the same goes for those who went to Bible college and claim to use good exegesis and hermineutics and yet they also disagree on what the Bible says but they never get picked on for that but only those who are doing it the way the Bible tells us to do it are.

Here is another fact, for those who are not led by the Spirit will not know whether I am being led by the Spirit or not, because if they are not being led by the Spirit there is no way they could know, but should that change the truth or the fact that I should continue to do what the scriptures reveal about it?

You see, I don't care what other people do, I only care that I am doing it the right way and if they can't see the truth that I am saying that is also fine with me, for soon enough at the Great White Throne Judgement God will make it know if I was or not and then if I was, I will be recompensed for their rejection of my words and that is all that really should matter anyhow.

 

[shroom]

You see, I don't care what other people do, I only care that I am doing it the right way and if they can't see the truth that I am saying that is also fine with me, for soon enough at the Great White Throne Judgement God will make it know if I was or not and then if I was, I will be recompensed for their rejection of my words and that is all that really should matter anyhow.

Christians will not be in the white throne judgment. We'll be judged at the pre-trib rapture. Then we'll be in heaven during the time the trib plays out on earth, then we'll be returning to earth with him when he fights Armageddon and then sets up his kingdom.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Christians will not be in the white throne judgment. We'll be judged at the pre-trib rapture. Then we'll be in heaven during the time the trib plays out on earth, then we'll be returning to earth with him when he fights Armageddon and then sets up his kingdom.

I agree, true Christians will not be in the White Throne Judgement, but you are wrong about when they are judged, for they pass from death to life the minute they get truly saved and then they are judged and tested all through their life right here on this earth so that they may be worthy of the Kingdom of God.

I didn't say that I or any other true believer would be judged at The white Throne Judgment but only that there it will be made known who was obeying the truth and who wasn't to everyone, and that goes for both all of the wicked and all of the saints also.

There is no pre trib rapture and you have failed to prove that this doctrine was ever taught in the actual Bible but instead you are imagining it from passages that you would like to be saying this but that do not and cannot either.

Armageddon is yet another doctrine that many are teaching falsely about.

For it isn't a war between The ethnic Nation of Israel over in the Middle East and the other nations at all but rather it is a war of wicked sinners who will not repent and believe against God and His Christ and God's NT Israel of the church, it is persecution from all peoples of the either out of every nation and even included non believing ethnic Israel.

Furthermore the picture of this in Revelation 19 is symbolic of what I just said, for Jesus didn't disappear from the clouds into heaven riding upon a horse and neither will he literally come back to the clouds from heaven on a horse either and the armies of heaven that are following him are symbolic and represent the heavenly born again saints who are being persecuted but will get the victory through Christ in the end.


By the way, Jesus will not return to this earth until this present old heaven and earth is purged by fire as per 2 Peter 3:10-12 and he returns with his resurrected and raptured Saints in the New Jerusalem when it descends from God out of the New Heaven to the New Earth and as per Revelation 21-22.

 

[shroom]

I agree, true Christians will not be in the White Throne Judgement, but you are wrong about when they are judged, for they pass from death to life the minute they get truly saved and then they are judged and tested all through their life right here on this earth so that they may be worthy of the Kingdom of God.

I didn't say that I or any other true believer would be judged at The white Throne Judgment but only that there it will be made known who was obeying the truth and who wasn't to everyone, and that goes for both all of the wicked and all of the saints also.

There is no pre trib rapture and you have failed to prove that this doctrine was ever taught in the actual Bible but instead you are imagining it from passages that you would like to be saying this but that do not and cannot either.

Armageddon is yet another doctrine that many are teaching falsely about.

For it isn't a war between The ethnic Nation of Israel over in the Middle East and the other nations at all but rather it is a war of wicked sinners who will not repent and believe against God and His Christ and God's NT Israel of the church, it is persecution from all peoples of the either out of every nation and even included non believing ethnic Israel.

Furthermore the picture of this in Revelation 19 is symbolic of what I just said, for Jesus didn't disappear from the clouds into heaven riding upon a horse and neither will he literally come back to the clouds from heaven on a horse either and the armies of heaven that are following him are symbolic and represent the heavenly born again saints who are being persecuted but will get the victory through Christ in the end.


By the way, Jesus will not return to this earth until this present old heaven and earth is purged by fire as per 2 Peter 3:10-12 and he returns with his resurrected and raptured Saints in the New Jerusalem when it descends from God out of the New Heaven to the New Earth and as per Revelation 21-22.

We disagree on a lot.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

We disagree on a lot.

That is an understatement.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Are you a preterist/partial preterist?

Nope. "Preterism" after all is "Just another" human attempt at creating "theology". No reason to pay attention to it at all.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

Nope. "Preterism" after all is "Just another" human attempt at creating "theology". No reason to pay attention to it at all.

I know. The OP proved to be a heretic and apostate so the question proved to be moot.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

I know. The OP proved to be a heretic and apostate so the question proved to be moot.

You don't know anything and that is the problem.

Therefore no, but actually you are the heretic and apostate and that will soon enough be proven and also manifested to all that have read your material here on this forum when your falleous pre trib rapture doesn't occur and you are in the thick of the Tribulation running about like a chicken with his head cut of wondering what happened.

By the way, I am not even close to being a preterist but most would call me an amillennialist, I don't like any title, for I just believe what the scriptures say and I know you claim to be but soon enough it will be proven who was understanding the truth of the scriptures and who wasn't.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Oh, ok. Thank you for the clarification.

What would be the purpose of God allowing His children to go through the trib because as you and I are aware, we have no say in God's design?

By the way and in answer to your last question above, because many true Christians have been falsely influenced by the false doctrines of the Harlot apostate churches and therefore they need to be brought back to the genuine truth of God's word and repentance also and God will use the Tribulation to do just that for them.

Now here is a question for you, what was the purpose of God in allowing the early church to go through the horrible persecution that they went through when the majority of them were walking solidly in the truth and also on fire in their passion for God and Christ?

For I will guarantee you this, that they were much more worthy of getting out of it, than the mess called church that exists today and by a long shot also, so why did God let them go through it if he really intends to remove this worse than luke warm mess called a church out of it as you falsely believe he will?

That is the question you ought to be asking instead?

 

[shroom]

...soon enough it will be proven who was understanding the truth of the scriptures and who wasn't.

Yep. One day, perhaps soon, we'll all find out what we had wrong and what we had right.

For now, I'm sticking with pre-trib pre-mill.

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

You don't know anything and that is the problem.

Therefore no, but actually you are the heretic and apostate and that will soon enough be proven and also manifested to all that have read your material here on this forum when your falleous pre trib rapture doesn't occur and you are in the thick of the Tribulation running about like a chicken with his head cut of wondering what happened.

By the way, I am not even close to being a preterist but most would call me an amillennialist, I don't like any title, for I just believe what the scriptures say and I know you claim to be but soon enough it will be proven who was understanding the truth of the scriptures and who wasn't.

I am not saved by eschatological theology but by Grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. Your works based heresy will only earn you the wages that leads to death, not salvation.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

Yep. One day, perhaps soon, we'll all find out what we had wrong and what we had right.

For now, I'm sticking with pre-trib pre-mill.

Well that is your choice but so far you haven't been able to show any proof of this doctrine from the scriptures but instead all you are doing is saying you believe in it despite the evidence that I have given you from the actual scriptures against it.

This looks a lot like only your opinion to me and truth is not determined by ones own opinion but by what he can prove from the scriptures.

Here below I am posting a scripture and I would like you to read it and tell me whether it is past tense, present tense or future tense, so read it closely and give your answer on it.

For it is one of the scriptures that pre-mill pre trib believers use for believing what they do about the pre trib rapture and the1000 years extra to this age Kingdom.

Before I post this, what do you say about John the Baptist, when he said "every mountain shall be made low and every valley filled, was he speaking of literal mountains and literal valley's or was it spiritually symbolic for something else?

Now here is the passage below.


Isaiah 2:
The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established [a]as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.
3 And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us [b]concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the [c]law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And He will judge between the nations,
And will [d]render decisions for many peoples;
And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they learn war.


5 Come, house of Jacob, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.
6 For You have abandoned Your people, the house of Jacob,
Because they are filled with influences from the east,
And they are soothsayers like the Philistines,
And they strike bargains with the children of foreigners.
7 Their land has also been filled with silver and gold
And there is no end to their treasures;
Their land has also been filled with horses
And there is no end to their chariots.
8 Their land has also been filled with idols;
They worship the work of their hands,
That which their fingers have made.
9 So the common man has been humbled
And the man of importance has been abased,
But do not forgive them.


10 Enter the rock and hide in the dust
From the terror of the Lord and from the splendor of His majesty.
11 The [e]proud look of man will be abased
And the loftiness of man will be humbled,
And the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.


Now then are verses 1- 9 of this past tense, present tense or future tense and do you believe that it is all totally literal or is there a lot of symbolism in it with a deeper meaning than what it appears on the surface?

 

[shroom]

Well that is your choice but so far you haven't been able to show any proof of this doctrine from the scriptures but instead all you are doing is saying you believe in it despite the evidence that I have given you from the actual scriptures against it.

I do not believe you have given any evidence against it.

This looks a lot like only your opinion to me and truth is not determined by ones own opinion but by what he can prove from the scriptures.

Agreed.

Here below I am posting a scripture and I would like you to read it and tell me whether it is past tense, present tense or future tense, so read it closely and give your answer on it.

For it is one of the scriptures that pre-mill pre trib believers use for believing what they do about the pre trib rapture and the1000 years extra to this age Kingdom.

There is nothing about a pre-trib rapture in the OT, or in the gospels, for that matter. There is, however, a lot of information about the kingdom that is prophesied to come. https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/appx/5 JtB and Jesus Christ both taught that the kingdom of God was "at hand," meaning it was coming soon. Jesus Christ said that some of the people standing there with him would not die before they saw the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. It didn't happen. God intervened with Christianity. The kingdom is still not here. But it's coming..

The revelation about the rapture was given to Paul (1 Cor 15:51ff and 1 Thes 4:13ff). It is for the Christian church only.

Before I post this, what do you say about John the Baptist, when he said "every mountain shall be made low and every valley filled, was he speaking of literal mountains and literal valley's or was it spiritually symbolic for something else?

I believe it's some of both.

Now here is the passage below.


Isaiah 2:
The word which Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.

2 Now it will come about that
In the last days
The mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established [a]as the chief of the mountains,
And will be raised above the hills;
And all the nations will stream to it.
3 And many peoples will come and say,
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
That He may teach us [b]concerning His ways
And that we may walk in His paths.”
For the [c]law will go forth from Zion
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 And He will judge between the nations,
And will [d]render decisions for many peoples;
And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
And never again will they learn war.


5 Come, house of Jacob, and let us walk in the light of the Lord.
6 For You have abandoned Your people, the house of Jacob,
Because they are filled with influences from the east,
And they are soothsayers like the Philistines,
And they strike bargains with the children of foreigners.
7 Their land has also been filled with silver and gold
And there is no end to their treasures;
Their land has also been filled with horses
And there is no end to their chariots.
8 Their land has also been filled with idols;
They worship the work of their hands,
That which their fingers have made.
9 So the common man has been humbled
And the man of importance has been abased,
But do not forgive them.


10 Enter the rock and hide in the dust
From the terror of the Lord and from the splendor of His majesty.
11 The [e]proud look of man will be abased
And the loftiness of man will be humbled,
And the Lord alone will be exalted in that day.


Now then are verses 1- 9 of this past tense, present tense or future tense and do you believe that it is all totally literal or is there a lot of symbolism in it with a deeper meaning than what it appears on the surface?

As I said, parts are literal and parts are symbolic.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

I am not saved by eschatological theology but by Grace alone, through faith alone in Christ alone. Your works based heresy will only earn you the wages that leads to death, not salvation.

I would agree with that, except that when someone believes and teaches falsely about anything in the scriptures, it isn't a good witness of their salvation by grace, for either it shows that the person is totally immature in the truth and therefore easily swayed by false doctrines or his salvation is based on the wrong thing and therefore he isn't really saved at all.

The only works that I teach are those of God himself working his own righteousness into the believer by the Holy Spirit within the believe and just as Paul also said in Ephesians 2:8-10 below and unfortunately many leave out of the equation verse 10 and which is why they come up with false information about what Paul is actually saying here.

Therefore all that Paul is saying here is that no man is saved by his own works but Paul never taught a salvation totally devoid of works like many falsely believe, for if a man claims to have true faith, and there is no evidence of God working his righteousness in that man's life, then he is deceiving himself.

This is also what James was speaking of when he said, "so we see then that a man is justified by works also and not only by faith" he is speaking of the works that come from God by the Holy Spirit that prove that a man has true faith and not just a faith that acknowledges that God exist and which the Devil also has.

Here, read it yourself.

Ephesians 2:8-10 "For by grace you are saved through faith and that not of yourselves (not even the faith comes from us), it is the gift of God, not of works (human works and self effort) lest any man should boast. FOR WE ARE HIS WORKMANSHIP CREATED IN CHRIST JESUS UNTO GOOD WORKS WHICH GOD HAS BEFORE ORDAINED THAT WE SHOULD WALK IN THEM".

 

[Yahweh will increase]

I do not believe you have given any evidence against it.

And you think that you have???????

Agreed.


There is nothing about a pre-trib rapture in the OT, or in the gospels, for that matter. There is, however, a lot of information about the kingdom that is prophesied to come. https://www.revisedenglishversion.com/appx/5 JtB and Jesus Christ both taught that the kingdom of God was "at hand," meaning it was coming soon. Jesus Christ said that some of the people standing there with him would not die before they saw the Son of Man coming in his kingdom. It didn't happen. God intervened with Christianity. The kingdom is still not here. But it's coming..

Do you have any idea at all what the words "at hand mean"?

For they don't mean way off in the distance but they mean present tense right now, look up the verses that state this in the Bible Hub interlinear and you will see that this is a fact.

This is what Jesus meant also in Luke 17 when the Jews asked him about the Kingdom that was promised to them by the prophets and he said the follow, "the kingdom of God does not come with observation as if to say low it is here or low it is there, for behold the Kingdom of God is in your midst "present tense" right now.

The revelation about the rapture was given to Paul (1 Cor 15:51ff and 1 Thes 4:13ff). It is for the Christian church only.

Exactly but his words about it didn't start there in 1 Corinthians 15:51 but rather in verses 22-26 where he very clearly tells you that it will only happen after the war of Armageddon where Jesus puts all his enemies under his feet is over and ended and that last enemy of death is then also destroyed so that no more of God's elect that are alive and waiting for his coming will have to die or sleep in death.

Now suppose you tell me, if this is not what Paul is speaking of in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26, then what is he speaking of and do you even know yourself without running to your trusted resource that you keep posting?

For this whole chapter is all about the resurrection and also the rapture which follows right immediately after it and Paul is very clearly also bringing into the picture the war of Armageddon between God and his Christ and his NT saints and the wicked and when Jesus destroys all his enemies bar none.

I believe it's some of both.

Yes but you never answer the question of when it would occur or did occur.

As I said, parts are literal and parts are symbolic.

You see, many who believe like you believe this is the 1000 year kingdom but there are big problems with that, because if you pay close attention to what he is saying, it isn't the Jews who are streaming into kingdom of New Jerusalem but rather the nations and this is what happened after Jesus died and the gospel went out to the Gentile nations.

The prophecy is extremely symbolic also, for it is only within the kingdom of God in the present tense on this earth and ruled from heaven by Christ that men learn war no more and beat their swords and spears into farming equipment and which is all symbolic for their living in peace with one another in this age of the Kingdom.

Also you will notice that in verse 5 the call is made back to the rebellious Jews who rejected the NT Kingdom to repent and return, so this is not speaking of any 1000 years extra to this age kIngdom of God predominately over the Jews but it is referring to this age starting at Christ's resurrection and ending at his second coming.

Furthermore, just like the mountains and valleys that John the Baptist used symbolically, so the mountains in this passage are also symbolic for the fact that God's Kingdom ruled by Christ from heaven is exalted above any other kingdoms on this earth and it is all symbolism.

 

[shroom]

And you think that you have???????

Do you have any idea at all what the words "at hand mean"?

I do. It didn't happen. God intervened with Christianity.

For they don't mean way off in the distance but they mean present tense right now, look up the verses that state this in the Bible Hub interlinear and you will see that this is a fact.

Right. It didn't happen.

This is what Jesus meant also in Luke 17 when the Jews asked him about the Kingdom that was promised to them by the prophets and he said the follow, "the kingdom of God does not come with observation as if to say low it is here or low it is there, for behold the Kingdom of God is in your midst "present tense" right now.

Yes. It was "in their midst," about to happen. It didn't. God intervened with Christianity.

Exactly but his words about it didn't start there in 1 Corinthians 15:51 but rather in verses 22-26 where he very clearly tells you that it will only happen after the war of Armageddon where Jesus puts all his enemies under his feet is over and ended and that last enemy of death is then also destroyed so that no more of God's elect that are alive and waiting for his coming will have to die or sleep in death.

No, I do not believe the events in 1 Cor 15 are chronological.

Now suppose you tell me, if this is not what Paul is speaking of in 1 Corinthians 15:22-26, then what is he speaking of and do you even know yourself without running to your trusted resource that you keep posting?

Yes. Paul starts off talking about resurrection into the kingdom, and how things will play out. But 1 Cor 15:51ff is new information.

For this whole chapter is all about the resurrection and also the rapture which follows right immediately after it and Paul is very clearly also bringing into the picture the war of Armageddon between God and his Christ and his NT saints and the wicked and when Jesus destroys all his enemies bar none.

All enemies will not be destroyed until after the millennial kingdom. That is when Christ will turn the kingdom over to God, death and hell will be tossed into the lake of fire, and New Jerusalem will descend to earth.

Yes but you never answer the question of when it would occur or did occur.

The kingdom is not here yet.

You see, many who believe like you believe this is the 1000 year kingdom but there are big problems with that, because if you pay close attention to what he is saying, it isn't the Jews who are streaming into kingdom of New Jerusalem but rather the nations and this is what happened after Jesus died and the gospel went out to the Gentile nations.

Nobody has streamed into New Jerusalem yet. It's not here yet.

The prophecy is extremely symbolic also, for it is only within the kingdom of God in the present tense

The kingdom isn't here yet. For now, the devil is the god of this age (2 Cor 4:4), the whole world is under his control (1 John 5:19).

on this earth and ruled from heaven by Christ

This world is not currently ruled by Christ. When it is, things will be vastly different than they are now.

that men learn war no more and beat their swords and spears into farming equipment and which is all symbolic for their living in peace with one another in this age of the Kingdom.

No, I think it will be quite literal. Jesus Christ will be ruling this world from Jerusalem.

Also you will notice that in verse 10 the call is made back to the rebellious Jews who rejected the NT Kingdom to repent and return, so this is not speaking of any 1000 years extra to this age kIngdom of God predominately over the Jews but it is referring to this age starting at Christ's resurrection and ending at his second coming.

Again, I'm convinced there will be a literal kingdom on this earth.

Furthermore, just like the mountains and valleys that John the Baptist used symbolically, so the mountains in this passage are also symbolic for the fact that God's Kingdom ruled by Christ from heaven is exalted above any other kingdoms on this earth and it is all symbolism.

Disagree.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

I do. It didn't happen. God intervened with Christianity.

Wow are you even blinded by that moron that you are listening to, for you need to understand this, that it is not only trinitarians who are in apostasy but this is also the case with many who believe in God as a single person being, for true faith isn't just asknowledge the truth about who God is but it is surrendering one's self unto him.

Now where does the actual scriptures themselves teach that the Kingdom was put off because the Jews were obstanate and rebellious and didn't want to receive it when Jesus came and the Kingdom was their in their midst?

You have to prove this from scripture and not just say it didn't happen and that God molly coddled the disobedent Jews and put the Kingdom off into the future for them despite the fact that they were being obstinate and rebellious and since when does God stoop low for the disobedient anyhow.

Right. It didn't happen.

Sorry but at hand means right now present tense and therefore you are wrong.

Yes. It was "in their midst," about to happen. It didn't. God intervened with Christianity.

Wake up for heaven sake, for Jesus even said that the Kingdom that they were looking for and asking him about wasn't going to come with a big observable splash like they expected it to but rather that it was even there in their midst present tense and he was speaking of the Kingdom that was promised to the obedient of Israel also and not another.

No, I do not believe the events in 1 Cor 15 are chronological.

So what, that doesn't change the fact that Paul very clearly stated that death would not be put under the feet of Jesus until all of the other enemies of God are first destroyed under the feet of Jesus, that is what he said whether you like it or not.

Yes. Paul starts off talking about resurrection into the kingdom, and how things will play out. But 1 Cor 15:51ff is new information.

LOL!, No, for all of what he is saying is new information about the resurrection and especially what he stated in verses 22-26 and it all ties together with verse 51-58 also.

For Paul says "we shall not all sleep in death (for the last enemy of death will have been destroyed under the feet of Christ) but we shall all be changed in a moment and in the twinkling of an ey and at THE LAST TRUMP" AND THE LAST TRUMP IS THE VICTORY TRUMP WHEN THAT LAST ENEMY OF DEATH FOR BELIEVERS IS also FINALLY DESTROYED UNDER THE FEET OF JESUS FOREVER.

All enemies will not be destroyed until after the millennial kingdom. That is when Christ will turn the kingdom over to God, death and hell will be tossed into the lake of fire, and New Jerusalem will descend to earth.

Don't you see, that you are only paroting what you were taught by someone else and that you don't even know the scriptures yourself enough to be able to show proof of what you are saying?

That is really ignorant!

The kingdom is not here yet.

Well then you are making Jesus a liar in favor of your false doctrine by your false teacher and which you cannot even defend with any scripture of your own to prove any of it.

Nobody has streamed into New Jerusalem yet. It's not here yet.

Sorry but it actually and very clearly tell us that the Gentile nations would stream into the Kingdom and that happened already after the majority of the Jews rejected the Kingdom and the gospel went out to the Gentiles.

The kingdom isn't here yet. For now, the devil is the god of this age (2 Cor 4:4), the whole world is under his control (1 John 5:19).

LOL! Sorry but 2 Corinthians 4:4 is only speaking of what is going on in the Kingdoms of this world while in the Kingdom of God present tense the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ as per verse 6 of that same text is shining in the hearts of those who belong to the Kingdom of God by repentance and faith.

This world is not currently ruled by Christ. When it is, things will be vastly different than they are now.

You better read Isaiah 2 again, for nothing is stated about the rule of God's Kingdom being over the whole world in that text at all.

In fact it very clearly and symbolically states that the Mountain of the Lords house shall be exalted above all the other mountains of the kingdoms of this world and which proves that there are other kingsoms at the same time as God's Kingdom is being ruled by Christ from heaven on this earth.

No, I think it will be quite literal. Jesus Christ will be ruling this world from Jerusalem.

Wow, you are so blind, for all that I hear is "I think, I don't believe that and I believe this with absolutely nothing to prove anything you are saying that you believe and think to be true and which means that all you have is your unsupported by scripture opinion and nothing more or less either.

Again, I'm convinced there will be a literal kingdom on this earth.

By what proof from scripture are you convinced, because I am not interested in your being convince but only with what you can prove from the scriptures and in fact if you don't show some proof soon, I won't even bother with your posts anymore, for it is a waste of time completely if you don't have scripture to back up you think and believe and don't believe and are convinced of.

Disagree.

Well maybe you ought to bite into these words from Jesus then from Lukes gospel below.

Luke 16:16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is pressing to enter into it (present tense).

You need to get away from that quack that you are listening to and I know who he is and have also listened to some of his videos on the Logos and all I can say is that even on that subject he lacks a true understanding and he is not a good Bible teacher.

 

[Yahweh will increase]

I do. It didn't happen. God intervened with Christianity.


Right. It didn't happen.


Yes. It was "in their midst," about to happen. It didn't. God intervened with Christianity.


No, I do not believe the events in 1 Cor 15 are chronological.


Yes. Paul starts off talking about resurrection into the kingdom, and how things will play out. But 1 Cor 15:51ff is new information.


All enemies will not be destroyed until after the millennial kingdom. That is when Christ will turn the kingdom over to God, death and hell will be tossed into the lake of fire, and New Jerusalem will descend to earth.


The kingdom is not here yet.


Nobody has streamed into New Jerusalem yet. It's not here yet.


The kingdom isn't here yet. For now, the devil is the god of this age (2 Cor 4:4), the whole world is under his control (1 John 5:19).


This world is not currently ruled by Christ. When it is, things will be vastly different than they are now.


No, I think it will be quite literal. Jesus Christ will be ruling this world from Jerusalem.


Again, I'm convinced there will be a literal kingdom on this earth.


Disagree.

By the way, it appears you are confused about your words below, so I will explain something that you obviously are not aware of, but with God there are two types of knowing things, first God knows things in his foreknowledge and in advane of their happening and then he knows things as they actually happen and which proves his foreknowledge.

You said this Every decision that free-will beings will make before those decisions are made. God brought the animals to Adam "to see what he would call them." In Genesis 6, God was sorry that He had made man. When Abraham was about to kill Isaac, God intervened and said "now I know..." God got angry with...


This is what is happening in those passages that you wrote in Calvinism verses Arminianism forum and they cut me off so that I could no longer post there out of their fear of the truth that I was opening them up to and which is common for those teaching false doctrine.

For those who have the truth are never afraid of those who teach false doctrine or their doctrine but those who are teaching false doctrine are indeed afraid of those who teach the truth along with the truth that they teach and this was the real reason why the apostate Jews had Jesus and his disciples killed, to shut them up from teaching the truth.

This is exactly why I was cut off from posting over in that forum also and this is why I am answering to it over here instead.

 

[Runningman]

Here is a good question for those who believe in a pre trib rapture?​

My question for pre-tribbers is if after the resurrection you are immortal and cannot die again then why do you need to be saved from the great tribulation? After that only to return again for a millennial kingdom? Never made sense to me.

 

[shroom]

Wow are you even blinded by that moron that you are listening to, for you need to understand this, that it is not only trinitarians who are in apostasy but this is also the case with many who believe in God as a single person being, for true faith isn't just asknowledge the truth about who God is but it is surrendering one's self unto him.

Now where does the actual scriptures themselves teach that the Kingdom was put off because the Jews were obstanate and rebellious and didn't want to receive it when Jesus came and the Kingdom was their in their midst?

You have to prove this from scripture and not just say it didn't happen and that God molly coddled the disobedent Jews and put the Kingdom off into the future for them despite the fact that they were being obstinate and rebellious and since when does God stoop low for the disobedient anyhow.


Sorry but at hand means right now present tense and therefore you are wrong.


Wake up for heaven sake, for Jesus even said that the Kingdom that they were looking for and asking him about wasn't going to come with a big observable splash like they expected it to but rather that it was even there in their midst present tense and he was speaking of the Kingdom that was promised to the obedient of Israel also and not another.


So what, that doesn't change the fact that Paul very clearly stated that death would not be put under the feet of Jesus until all of the other enemies of God are first destroyed under the feet of Jesus, that is what he said whether you like it or not.


LOL!, No, for all of what he is saying is new information about the resurrection and especially what he stated in verses 22-26 and it all ties together with verse 51-58 also.

For Paul says "we shall not all sleep in death (for the last enemy of death will have been destroyed under the feet of Christ) but we shall all be changed in a moment and in the twinkling of an ey and at THE LAST TRUMP" AND THE LAST TRUMP IS THE VICTORY TRUMP WHEN THAT LAST ENEMY OF DEATH FOR BELIEVERS IS also FINALLY DESTROYED UNDER THE FEET OF JESUS FOREVER.




Don't you see, that you are only paroting what you were taught by someone else and that you don't even know the scriptures yourself enough to be able to show proof of what you are saying?

That is really ignorant!


Well then you are making Jesus a liar in favor of your false doctrine by your false teacher and which you cannot even defend with any scripture of your own to prove any of it.


Sorry but it actually and very clearly tell us that the Gentile nations would stream into the Kingdom and that happened already after the majority of the Jews rejected the Kingdom and the gospel went out to the Gentiles.

LOL! Sorry but 2 Corinthians 4:4 is only speaking of what is going on in the Kingdoms of this world while in the Kingdom of God present tense the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ as per verse 6 of that same text is shining in the hearts of those who belong to the Kingdom of God by repentance and faith.


You better read Isaiah 2 again, for nothing is stated about the rule of God's Kingdom being over the whole world in that text at all.

In fact it very clearly and symbolically states that the Mountain of the Lords house shall be exalted above all the other mountains of the kingdoms of this world and which proves that there are other kingsoms at the same time as God's Kingdom is being ruled by Christ from heaven on this earth.


Wow, you are so blind, for all that I hear is "I think, I don't believe that and I believe this with absolutely nothing to prove anything you are saying that you believe and think to be true and which means that all you have is your unsupported by scripture opinion and nothing more or less either.


By what proof from scripture are you convinced, because I am not interested in your being convince but only with what you can prove from the scriptures and in fact if you don't show some proof soon, I won't even bother with your posts anymore, for it is a waste of time completely if you don't have scripture to back up you think and believe and don't believe and are convinced of.

Well maybe you ought to bite into these words from Jesus then from Lukes gospel below.

Luke 16:16 “The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John. Since that time, the good news of the kingdom of God is being preached, and everyone is pressing to enter into it (present tense).

You need to get away from that quack that you are listening to and I know who he is and have also listened to some of his videos on the Logos and all I can say is that even on that subject he lacks a true understanding and he is not a good Bible teacher.

Thanks for your opinions.