You're either totally confused...or purposely trying to obfuscate.
How does the LDS Church reconcile their 1st Article of Faith and selected quotes
- Thread starter jamesh
- Start date
What is your meaning of "birth"?
What is your meaning of "substance"?
You're being silly... intentional or not. Jesus didn't create our heaven and earth until well after He, like us, was taught, and did so under the direction of God, the Father.
Clearly not.
CrowCross
Well-known member
Then describe the relation you mormons have told us on this forum god had with a heavenly women? How are they our parents and Jesus parents? Mormons teach we are LITERALLY the sons and daughters of a mother and father in heaven
You mormons teach Jesus was not God until He was given authority to be so......Care to tell us when this happened? Was it after he was chosen to be the savior and Lucifer wasn't?
CrowCross
Well-known member
Brought into existence.
Conscienceless. A being.
No, I wasn't being silly...I was serious.
Side question....where did the father come from? I would imagine at one time he was nothing more than intelligence..and that which birthed him at one time was nothing more than intelligence.
I'm pretty sure nobody has said this.
This is what I'm talking about. You see the word "literal", and you automatically think "sex". It's all you can understand, in secular terms.
"So also life is eternal, and not created; but life, or the vital force, may be infused into organized matter, though the details of the process have not been revealed unto man...God breathed into the body of man the breath of life...Elohim is the Father in every sense in which Jesus Christ is so designated, and distinctively He is the Father of spirits." https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/ensign/2002/04/the-father-and-the-son?lang=eng
"Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father." (Spencer W. Kimball)
I would say after...though full authority wasn't given until after His atonement (Matthew 28:18). On a different note, Lucifer was never actually considered to be chosen.
Our intelligences always existed.
Spirit matter has always existed.
He would have lived a life like the Savior's. However, asking where it all began (something we can't know), is as fruitless as asking what "your" God (or rather your version of Him) was doing before He decided to "create" existence.
Janice Bower
Well-known member
You've got it! And you will notice that as a first response they provided no quotes as a source for their thoughts.
I sure did.
Here's another for you:
The Divine Mission of Jesus Christ: Creator
The Divine Mission of Jesus Christ: Creator
www.churchofjesuschrist.org
CrowCross
Well-known member
Basically you just told me...you (the mormons) don't know the details or the process. All you know is some non-biblical books reference it.
Considering the earth at one time didn't exist and the earth was created when the co-eternal with God "matter/energy" was gathered...and made into the earth....CREATED....the same would then be true for Jesus when the pre-pre-incarnate Jesus was simply the same stuff but organized into "Jesus" and given birth to in your so-called heaven via some mother and father. Basically you provided me with the LDS literature that shows you believe Jesus was a created being through some unknown process that you don't know the details of.
Your mormon Jesus existed...with some assembly required.
CrowCross
Well-known member
Sooooooooooo, the next time you mormons say salvation is not obtained via works....I'll re-post the following from your link...I sure did.
Here's another for you:
The Divine Mission of Jesus Christ: Creator
The Divine Mission of Jesus Christ: Creatorwww.churchofjesuschrist.org
“How grateful we should be that a wise Creator fashioned an earth and placed us here,” said President Thomas S. Monson, “… that we might experience a time of testing, an opportunity to prove ourselves in order to qualify for all that God has prepared for us to receive.”1 When we use our agency to obey God’s commandments and repent, we become worthy to return to live with Him.
The truth is the true christian has received the righteousness of Christ Jesus when their sins were imputed to Christ Jesus as he hung and died on the cross...as His blood washed away our sins....For it is by grace the true christians have been saved through faith, and this not from themselves...but... it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast.
A Berean of Acts 17 would have listened to the mormon "theology"....see if it compared to the bible...then rejected the mormon "theology"
The mormons reduce Jesus to a shaped, gathered "intelligence" of unknown material...declare he was "born in heaven"....elevated to deity...a separate god from their god the father.....one in agenda...rather than one in nature and essence...then proclaim their is salvation in this Jesus?
CrowCross
Well-known member
Where does the bible teach this?
Now, I would say we are intelligently designed.
Where does the bible teach this?
God was communicating with the...Father, Son and Holy Spirit...who were of the same divine essence and nature yet separate in personhood.
In the above you said God decided to create existence....From your other post you say God created Jesus from pre-existing "stuff"...intelligence.... That is Jesus was brought into this existence by God. Then you claim Jesus always existed but had to be assembled from pre-existing eternal "stuff" via a process of "birth" brought about by some father and celestial mother......Did I sum it up? Perhaps you would like to sum it up, that is if you can.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
There was never a time when he didn't have "substance". All spirit is matter. Spirits are eternal beings without beginning and without end. Your argument is like a broken record. No matter what we tell you, when you decide to speak again, you skip back to the beginning of your track.
I think it is ridiculous to try to guess when Jesus created everything or what he was when he did it. Nevertheless, spirits are eternal, they can neither be created nor made.
The intelligence of man IS the man. His body becomes a tool to carry out his wishes whether they be good or evil. There are far more things in the universe besides intelligence and matter. Among them is energy. If God has power to use energy however he chooses, it doesn't matter what form God exists in, he would be able to organize matter to create worlds without end.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
Jesus is the messenger. God sent him. They are separate and distinct beings in which God had a body and Jesus wanted to become like him..God, therefore dwelt in an earth like ours. Born of a mortal woman, lived and died and was resurrected and exalted just like Jesus.
There's no mystery about how God came to be what he is today. Jesus showed us what he did because Jesus did it himself.
Magdalena
Well-known member
He obviously created the earth before He came here in human form. He was already God.
CrowCross
Well-known member
I skip back to the beginning of "my track" because you haven't expressed your track in an understandable way.
I liken your theology to a "brick"
....where Jesus is the brick in the analogy.You start with "intelligence"...the ingredients....Clay, sand and perhaps a little Lime, Iron Oxide and Magnesia. Then you gather it together and just add water. The mormons here consider the elements used to make the brick as a brick though it wasn't made into a brick yet. The mormons claim Jesus wasn't Jesus yet but then tell us Jesus was eternal.
Say's who?
If God is the all powerful God...which He is, then Jesus as the Word who is God and became flesh ... would be able to create anything out of nothing. Even energy and matter and then use those powers to use the energy and matter however He chooses.
But your "Jesus" was nothing but elements prior to His existence.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
No, you don't. That is the answer. There is no doctrine on it. That's the answer.
He certainly has reached the limit of yours.
No one is pretending to know except you.
You aren't paying attention. 1. We don't know anything about anyone's birth in heaven. We simply know that God, the Father, is the father of spirits and that we are all the offspring of God. That Jesus is the firstborn or all creation and that Jesus and all the rest of us share the same Father and God. Those are biblical facts. You may not believe them, but we do.
This makes Jesus one from among us, a brother, a sibling sharing a common relationship to God with us spiritually. But none of that means that Jesus was created or made. And for that matter, it also doesn't mean that we were ever created or made. The same person, the mind of man or the intelligence we have, was never created or made; that person is the same person that we are today, embodied in flesh and blood. Our will, our minds, our thoughts were not created.
It is possible that God was aware of us but we were not aware of him. "Let there be light..." Quit possibly was our awakening when, for the first time in eternity, we became aware of him. The point is the fact that we don't know. All that occurred before our birth in mortal bodies is forgotten. What little we do have says we are all children of God. Pretty simple, easy to follow.
CrowCross
Well-known member
So, Jesus came after God...This god you spoke of lived on another earth like planet. Thing is the bible says Jesus created all. If Jesus was not then, how did He create that earth like planet that "your god" lived on, died on and resurrected on?
Did this god of yours that Jesus wanted to be like have a god on some other planet that also lived, died and was resurrected on? Where is Jesus' god's, god now?
The answer is God always existed and never did he exist in the form of "intelligence". This eternal God was one and is 3 persons...God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. All 3 of the same nature and essence. Not separate beings as the mormons falsely believe.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
Nope. Not like that at all.
CrowCross
Well-known member
So, you step out of the bible and make up an answer?
Yes, Gods ways are above our ways .... and the bible does give us some understanding. The understanding that the bible presents contradicts your extra-biblical understanding of who God is. This is one of many reasons why your false god has no salvation.
You pretend to know when you say the bible is false concerning who God is.
You have demonstrated that you don't understand the meaning of firstborn.
Here's a brief description.
Jesus is called the firstborn, not the first-created. The word "firstborn" (Greek word "prototokos") signifies priority. In the culture of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn was not necessarily the oldest child. firstborn referred not to birth order but to rank. The firstborn possessed the inheritance and leadership. ref
Your Jesus was made from what you call "intelligence"....Like a brick, your Jesus came from materials that were made, created into the likeness of a pre-incarnate Jesus. Your Jesus wasn't eternal...you may claim the elements were eternal but according to your false theology this "intelligent" ingredients was then made into Jesus. That is Jesus had a beginning much like the human side of Jesus born of Mary had a beginning when the Word that became flesh was formed in the womb.
The bible says we were made in the womb. Do you need the reference?
For the most part our will, mind and thoughts were derived from experience in a body which the bible says was created in the womb.
Some of that was given to us by God as Romans 1 expresses.
What was that light?
What you are doing is taking speculation and presenting it a fact. We are all "children of God" in that we are all created by God in out mothers womb. Adam and Eve would be the only exceptions. "Children of God" takes on a higher meaning when one is born again where as those not born again, purchased by the blood of Christ who have not had their sins imputed to Christ Jesus and His righteousness imputed to them are not "children of God". It is impossible for people to work or earn their way into the higher understanding of what a child of God is. This childhood is a gift from God.....something the mormons deny and in denying will never receive eternal life.
CrowCross
Well-known member
Then take that up with your brethren...as some of them have said otherwise.