How many crosses were there on Calvary?

[Bob Carabbio]

Tradition says 3, but tradition is more often wrong than right. What say you?

Chuckle!!! Dr. Victor Weirwille (The Way International) taught that there were 5 crosses because:
Jhn 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
Jhn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

So there were "two" on one side, and probably "two" on the other side that just weren't mentioned. "Theology" - you GOTTA LOVE IT!!!

 

[cjab]

Correction: Hawkeye didn't translate this verse. It was the King James Bible translators who did.

KJV [Matthew 27:38] Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand, and another on the left.

The preeminent Hebrew/Greek Scholar of the nineteenth century.....Robert Young also translates thus:

YLT [Matthew 27:38] Then crucified with him are two robbers, one on the right hand, and one on the left,

If you look in the English dictionary, there are multiple usages of "then", which can mean either "at that time" or "afterwards." So you're relying only on an ambiguity in the KJV, in which ambiguity, many other translations do not follow.

 

[cjab]

Chuckle!!! Dr. Victor Weirwille (The Way International) taught that there were 5 crosses because:
Jhn 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
Jhn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:

So there were "two" on one side, and probably "two" on the other side that just weren't mentioned. "Theology" - you GOTTA LOVE IT!!!

A silly assumption as it infers the soldiers approached the crosses from a single direction. But it is more than likely, as there was more than one soldier, that they approached the crosses from both directions, simultaneously.

 

[shroom]

A silly assumption as it infers the soldiers approached the crosses from a single direction. But it is more than likely, as there was more than one soldier, that they approached the crosses from both directions, simultaneously.

Now THAT is a silly assumption based solely on the tradition that only two were crucified with Jesus Christ.

 

[cjab]

Now THAT is a silly assumption based solely on the tradition that only two were crucified with Jesus Christ.

It's what the bible says. I know you have problems with understanding the bible, but two malefactors crucified with Christ is quite straightforward.

 

[Hawkeye]

Tradition says 3, but tradition is more often wrong than right. What say you?

Tradition is indeed wrong throughout much of scripture .......Why????

If you were Satan where would you spend your time? Confusing the Buddhists? How about sowing some discord among the Hindus? Do you think Satan would spend any effort with Muslims? Wiccans? Get serious........

This is why we see so many denominations and sects with in Christianity because the Serpent desires confusion among the followers of Messiah.

[Galatians 3:13] Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:

We were told it was a cross.....and there were three of them. Where does it say that in the Greek manuscripts? It doesn't!

[Deuteronomy 21:22-23] And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree: His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

This is why Joseph took Him down before sunset of the 14th (Passover Preparation) and saw that He was entombed before Passover, the 15th began [John 19:14]

What was a Roman crucifixion tree? Was it shaped in the form of a cross?

 

[cjab]

What was a Roman crucifixion tree? Was it shaped in the form of a cross?

The early Romans assumed so, judging by their graphiti and art work.

 

[Hawkeye]

What was a Roman crucifixion tree? Was it shaped in the form of a cross?

[Acts 5:30] and the God of our fathers did raise up Jesus, whom ye slew, having hanged upon a tree;

[Acts 10:39] and we -- we are witnesses of all things that he did, both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem, -- whom they did slay, having hanged upon a tree.

[Acts 13:29] and when they did complete all the things written about him, having taken [him] down from the tree, they laid him in a tomb;

[I Peter 2:24] who our sins himself did bear in his body, upon the tree, that to the sins having died, to the righteousness we may live; by whose stripes ye were healed,

The cross was first used....designating a Christian symbol during the reign of Constantine. " Illustrated World Encyclopedia, Vol. 6, Page 1473"

Constantine reigned as Roman Emperor from A.D. 306 to A.D. 337

So.....why do Luke and Peter refer to it as a tree? The Greek word is xylon (ξύλον) which simply means wood.

Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible (1879) says: "A stake."​

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon (1852) says: "A stake."​

Strong`s Exhaustive Concordance (1890) on #4716 says: "A stake or post."​

Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (1889) says: "An upright stake."​

A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament (1895): "An upright pale or stake."​

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

When I read the assertions of many on CARM forums, I’m struck by the assurance so many seem to have in their understanding of YHWH and Biblical teachings.
I’m left to wonder why the scriptures exhort believers to study daily, day and night, when understanding the Word is as simple as keeping notes as some dude regurgitates what he was told by some dude before him.
Mainstream Christianity and its adherence to tradition at the expense of truth is truly and irredeemably evil and responsible for turning the many from a relationship with YHWH.

 

[cjab]

[Acts 5:30] and the God of our fathers did raise up Jesus, whom ye slew, having hanged upon a tree;

[Acts 10:39] and we -- we are witnesses of all things that he did, both in the country of the Jews, and in Jerusalem, -- whom they did slay, having hanged upon a tree.

[Acts 13:29] and when they did complete all the things written about him, having taken [him] down from the tree, they laid him in a tomb;

[I Peter 2:24] who our sins himself did bear in his body, upon the tree, that to the sins having died, to the righteousness we may live; by whose stripes ye were healed,

The cross was first used....designating a Christian symbol during the reign of Constantine. " Illustrated World Encyclopedia, Vol. 6, Page 1473"

Constantine reigned as Roman Emperor from A.D. 306 to A.D. 337

So.....why do Luke and Peter refer to it as a tree? The Greek word is xylon (ξύλον) which simply means wood.

Young's Analytical Concordance to the Bible (1879) says: "A stake."​

The New Analytical Greek Lexicon (1852) says: "A stake."​

Strong`s Exhaustive Concordance (1890) on #4716 says: "A stake or post."​

Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the NT (1889) says: "An upright stake."​

A Critical Lexicon and Concordance to the English and Greek New Testament (1895): "An upright pale or stake."​

You do distort what you read, don't you?

Ancient Greek as a language had far fewer words to describe things than modern English. Hence Greek words are often imprecise and must be contextually refined to be understood.

σταυρός is not limited to stake, but can include the Roman T shaped crosss. Christ was crucified on a Roman cross, not a Greek stake. As the context is Roman criminal law, the Roman meaning must be applied. As to which:

4716 staurós – the crosspiece of a Roman cross; the cross-beam (Latin, patibulum) placed at the top of the vertical member to form a capital "T." "This transverse beam was the one carried by the criminal" (Souter).

As for the Greek word ξύλον, it stands for anything made of wood, so it can mean a tree or anything derived from one.

 

[Bob Dobbalina]

You do distort what you read, don't you?

Ancient Greek as a language had far fewer words to describe things than modern English. Hence Greek words are often imprecise and must be contextually refined to be understood.

σταυρός is not limited to stake, but can include the Roman T shaped crosss. Christ was crucified on a Roman cross, not a Greek stake. As the context is Roman criminal law, the Roman meaning must be applied. As to which:

4716 staurós – the crosspiece of a Roman cross; the cross-beam (Latin, patibulum) placed at the top of the vertical member to form a capital "T." "This transverse beam was the one carried by the criminal" (Souter).

As for the Greek word ξύλον, it stands for anything made of wood, so it can mean a tree or anything derived from one.

Nowhere in this do you demonstrate distortion in Hawkeye’s thesis; this post only serves to illustrate how upholding traditions is more important than the actual study of scripture.
You don’t have to agree but actual scriptural evidence for your position is always welcome.

 

[Hawkeye]

Constantine reigned as Roman Emperor from A.D. 306 to A.D. 337

So.....why do Luke and Peter refer to it as a tree? The Greek word is xylon (ξύλον) which simply means wood.

​

There are 28 passages in the New Testament where the English word "Cross" appears in most modern works.....17 alone in the gospels. The Greek word used in these passages is STAUROS (σταυρὸν) and it is defined by the Lexicon:

(Thayers #4716) as from the base of isthmi - histemi 2476; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:--cross.

As you can see..... the Lexicon also adds a "further definition", (one popularized by the Roman Catholic Church) a cross. As noted in an earlier post the Cross was first designated a religious symbol by Constantine in the 4th century A.D. so at the time of the crucifixion of our Messiah this terminology was not used.

Modern archeology shows that the symbol of a "Cross" was first used in Chaldea several centuries before the time of Yeshua. It was originally used to represent the god Tammuz (Nimrod) who opposed the Father Yahweh after the flood. He was the founder of the city of Babylon.

In the British Museum you will find ancient Assyrian statues wearing Maltese Crosses around their necks. This dates to at least 700/1000 B.C.

The Greek god, Bacchus is frequently pictured with a headdress covered with various forms of crosses. This predates Christianity by centuries.

Crosses were found by the Spaniards in Mexico. These also dated to centuries earlier.

The Egyptian ANKH is a popular ta-too by some modern folks and can be viewed on google. It symbolizes Life, Eternal Life, Immortality, Death, and Reincarnation. It dates to before the time of Moses and is a cross with a tear drop hoop above.

Archaeology has not found any Christian use of the cross until the time of Constantine. What does this tell us? We do know that Constantine welcomed pagans into his newly formed religion....allowing them to bring with them many superstitions, artifacts and beliefs.

More tradition that serious Christians should consider for further examination as we know the Father has told us not to venerate objects such as this:

The second commandment: `Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image, or any likeness which [is] in the heavens above, or which [is] in the earth beneath, or which [is] in the waters under the earth.

 

[cjab]

There are 28 passages in the New Testament where the English word "Cross" appears in most modern works.....17 alone in the gospels. The Greek word used in these passages is STAUROS (σταυρὸν) and it is defined by the Lexicon:

(Thayers #4716) as from the base of isthmi - histemi 2476; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:--cross.

As you can see..... the Lexicon also adds a "further definition", (one popularized by the Roman Catholic Church) a cross. As noted in an earlier post the Cross was first designated a religious symbol by Constantine in the 4th century A.D. so at the time of the crucifixion of our Messiah this terminology was not used.

Modern archeology shows that the symbol of a "Cross" was first used in Chaldea several centuries before the time of Yeshua. It was originally used to represent the god Tammuz (Nimrod) who opposed the Father Yahweh after the flood. He was the founder of the city of Babylon.

In the British Museum you will find ancient Assyrian statues wearing Maltese Crosses around their necks. This dates to at least 700/1000 B.C.

The Greek god, Bacchus is frequently pictured with a headdress covered with various forms of crosses. This predates Christianity by centuries.

Crosses were found by the Spaniards in Mexico. These also dated to centuries earlier.

The Egyptian ANKH is a popular ta-too by some modern folks and can be viewed on google. It symbolizes Life, Eternal Life, Immortality, Death, and Reincarnation. It dates to before the time of Moses and is a cross with a tear drop hoop above.

Archaeology has not found any Christian use of the cross until the time of Constantine. What does this tell us? We do know that Constantine welcomed pagans into his newly formed religion....allowing them to bring with them many superstitions, artifacts and beliefs.

More tradition that serious Christians should consider for further examination as we know the Father has told us not to venerate objects such as this:

The second commandment: `Thou dost not make to thyself a graven image, or any likeness which [is] in the heavens above, or which [is] in the earth beneath, or which [is] in the waters under the earth.

We can deduce in Jesus case that he wasn't unlikely to have been crucified on a stake, with arms upright, because death would then have ocurred within the hour due to breathing problems, says Jeremy Ward, a physiologist at King's College London. When arms are placed directly above the head, breathing problems are greatly exacerbated.

Modern scholars, following descriptions of criminals carrying crossbars by Plautus and Plutarch, often take the Gospel description as meaning Jesus, then Simon, carried only a heavy patibulum, the crossbar, to a pole, stipes, which was permanently driven into the ground at Golgotha.

Roman crucifixion nails, one embedden in bone, have been found in a first century Jewish tomb. The Roman Alexamenos graffito, dating from 2nd century, depicts the crucifixion of Christ with arms outstretched.

The use of stauros to describe an upright stake was between 700 to 300 years before the birth of Jesus, by the Greek classical authors Homer, Thucydides, Xenophon, and Herodotus. As crucifixion was not a Greek punishment, this literature cannot be applied to the Roman crucifixion method, which derived from Persia.

The "cross"as a Christian symbol seems to have become popularized by the Roman Emperor Constantine when he converted to Christianity. He was nothing to do with the "Roman Catholic" church per se.

 

[cjab]

Typo in the above: Replace "We can deduce in Jesus case that he wasn't unlikely to have been crucified on a stake............" with "We can deduce in Jesus case that he was unlikely to have been crucified on a stake............"

 

[Hawkeye]

Nowhere in this do you demonstrate distortion in Hawkeye’s thesis; this post only serves to illustrate how upholding traditions is more important than the actual study of scripture.
You don’t have to agree but actual scriptural evidence for your position is always welcome.

Thank you for your kind words.

Some thoughts.......

Knowing what we have learned about the "Cross" so far on this thread........the fact that it predated Christianity for over a thousand years as a pagan symbol of the Babylonian's, the Assyrian's, the Chaldean's and the Egyptian's..... we should probably assume that Satan took an interest it.

Originally the "T" stood for Tammuz according to modern archaeology and as the founder of Babylon he was the enemy of Yahweh.... otherwise known as Nimrod [Genesis 10:8-9][I Chronicles 1:10].

The scriptures identify him as "Before the Lord" but may also be translated as "Against the Lord".

If Satan were to somewhat skew this new religion founded by the Messiah what better path of deception could he take other than bringing the "Cross Symbol" into play....? He has even convinced the majority that there were three crosses instead of the biblically proven "Five Stakes".......(Double Deception)

We know this symbol is venerated by millions of folks today whether they simply wear it about their neck on a chain or actually get down on their knees......and worship it. We are reminded of the second commandment given by Yahweh in which He commands us not to make graven images or any likeness thereof. Bowing down to symbol of Tammuz (to me) fits this bill completely. The commandment prohibits us in any way to represent His divinity in a physical manner such idols, symbols and pictures.

Of course the folks who do it....... think it represents the Messiah when we have learned that He was not even crucified on a cross....but on a stake. We learned this by definitions from most accurate lexicons regarding the Greek words defining the stake in early manuscripts. The Greek word "Stauros" does not indicate anywhere it was composed of a stake.....with a crosspiece. It is only described as a upright stake or pale. This is where the word im"pale" was conceived.

We are warned in [Matthew 24: 4-5] regarding deceptions. Can you think of anything representing modern day Christianity more than the sign of the Cross? Do you think Satan would have therefore taken some interest in it? We know he spends all his time deceiving Christians....and does not really bother with others.

The "Many" are prophesied to be deceived.....not the few.

 

[cjab]

Thank you for your kind words.

Some thoughts.......

Knowing what we have learned about the "Cross" so far on this thread........the fact that it predated Christianity for over a thousand years as a pagan symbol of the Babylonian's, the Assyrian's, the Chaldean's and the Egyptian's..... we should probably assume that Satan took an interest it.

Originally the "T" stood for Tammuz according to modern archaeology and as the founder of Babylon he was the enemy of Yahweh.... otherwise known as Nimrod [Genesis 10:8-9][I Chronicles 1:10].

The scriptures identify him as "Before the Lord" but may also be translated as "Against the Lord".

If Satan were to somewhat skew this new religion founded by the Messiah what better path of deception could he take other than bringing the "Cross Symbol" into play....? He has even convinced the majority that there were three crosses instead of the biblically proven "Five Stakes".......(Double Deception)

We know this symbol is venerated by millions of folks today whether they simply wear it about their neck on a chain or actually get down on their knees......and worship it. We are reminded of the second commandment given by Yahweh in which He commands us not to make graven images or any likeness thereof. Bowing down to symbol of Tammuz (to me) fits this bill completely. The commandment prohibits us in any way to represent His divinity in a physical manner such idols, symbols and pictures.

Of course the folks who do it....... think it represents the Messiah when we have learned that He was not even crucified on a cross....but on a stake. We learned this by definitions from most accurate lexicons regarding the Greek words defining the stake in early manuscripts. The Greek word "Stauros" does not indicate anywhere it was composed of a stake.....with a crosspiece. It is only described as a upright stake or pale. This is where the word im"pale" was conceived.

We are warned in [Matthew 24: 4-5] regarding deceptions. Can you think of anything representing modern day Christianity more than the sign of the Cross? Do you think Satan would have therefore taken some interest in it? We know he spends all his time deceiving Christians....and does not really bother with others.

The "Many" are prophesied to be deceived.....not the few.

You are wrong.

Eg. "The Lord answers: When the tree that is fallen shall rise, and when blood shall drop down from the tree. Here you have again mention made, both of the cross, and of him that was to be crucified upon it. And yet farther he saith by Moses; (when Israel was fighting with, and beaten by, a strange people; to the end that God might put them in mind how that for their sins they were delivered unto death) yea, the Holy Spirit put it into the heart of Moses, to represent both the sign of the cross, and of him that was to suffer: that so they might know that if they did not believe in him, they should be overcome for ever. Moses therefore I piled up armour upon armour in the middle of a rising ground, and standing up high above all of them, stretched forth his arms, and so Israel again conquered.” Epistle of Barnabas 11:2-4 (circa 70-132 AD)." &etc,