Is anyone interested in Wed. 3/20/2024 Open Discussion?

SovereignGrace said:
Well, Jesus did tell those Pharisees this, "but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."[John 10:26] Man, in his fallen state, cannot believe, and will not believe.
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Again, you extrapolate too far. He is not saying that they were disabled from faith from birth, per the Ausgustinian tradition (which of course fails to account for those Jews who had faith even prior to Christ) but that they disabled themselves from faith through their love of sinning, such that their damnation became unavoidable. The sins of the Pharisees were classed by Jesus as sins that went before them to judgement 1Ti 5:24. That is, they credited lies over truth, as an intellectual pursuit. Yet not just an intellectual pursuit, but a whole life pursuit in wanton defiance of truth.
 
preacher4truth said:
This post of yours is laden with ad hom and avoidance. You've been kindly asked to pose your questions, and have disregarded posts that suggest this as well. @Theo1689 did in fact answer you, even as you pretend you were not answered. Sorry, but this all feels "too familiar" and like games. If you have, as you say, "unanswerable" questions, then get to posting them.
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Very passive aggressive
 
SovereignGrace said:
If Jesus is the Savior of all men, and not all men are saved, then how can He be (rightly) called the Savior of all men?
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Salvation is a universal commandment: God commands all men to be saved, to repent Acts 7:30. In this sense, the gospel is universal, not particular.
 
cjab said:
Because he provides salvation to all men. In fact salvation is a universal commandment: God commands all men to be saved, to repent Acts 7:30. In this sense, God provides salvation to all entailing that the gospel is universal, not particular.
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Providing and actually saving are two different things.

Notice it does not He provides salvation to all men but is actually the saviour of all men.
 
Reformedguy said:
Providing and actually saving are two different things.

Notice it does not He provides salvation to all men but is actually the saviour of all men.
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"the savior of all men" is obviously an abbreviation for the sake of conciseness, and typifies NT theology is general. Clearly it doesn't just refer to provision to be saved, but rather per Acts 17:30, it entails a duty to be saved, thus becoming in effect the 11th commandment.
 
Reformedguy said:
Christ is the saviour of all men. Are all men saved?
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There was a time when the church aimed to be universal. Such was clearly the apostolic goal. But heresies crept in. Act 20:30 "Even from your own number [narcissists] will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them." Separately from diluting the gospel with heresies is the idea that God himself is a monster partial to a secret elect (such seems to have been credited by Gnostics), such that the love of God for sinners is in reality a fiction. [From a recent Tribunal panel judge (whose very comments led to the hearing being abandoned) "Responding to a comment that only atheists should be in public office, Mr Purkis posted: 'Damn right, you won't catch us killing in the name of our non-god.' "]

So I would contend that if not all men are saved, it is only because man has determined that it should be so, not Christ. Woe to the man through whom such things come (said Christ).
 
SovereignGrace said:
Reformed theology does not teach free will but a will that freely chooses within the confines of that person's nature. Just like a prisoner inside a 9' x 12' jail cell. That person can freely move in the confines of that cell, but cannot of their own choosing, get beyond the confines of those prison bars. A person is either a slave to sin or a slave to righteousness, which is exactly what Paul taught in Romans 6:16ff.
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Someone is having trouble framing his words in his responses so as to not be totally given away. This is why it is pretensive, and why there is so much beating around the bush. It's painful to observe, lol.
 
cjab said:
There was a time when the church aimed to be universal. Such was clearly the apostolic goal. But heresies crept in. Act 20:30 "Even from your own number [narcissists] will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them." Separately from diluting the gospel with heresies is the idea that God himself is a monster partial to a secret elect (such seems to have been credited by Gnostics), such that the love of God for sinners is in reality a fiction. [From a recent Tribunal panel judge (whose very comments led to the hearing being abandoned) "Responding to a comment that only atheists should be in public office, Mr Purkis posted: 'Damn right, you won't catch us killing in the name of our non-god.' "]

So I would contend that if not all men are saved, it is only because man has determined that it should be so, not Christ. Woe to the man through whom such things come (said Christ).
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It say Christ is the Saviour of all men.

Why would the Bible call Him the Saviour of all men if that obviously is not true. Could Adolph Hitler had called Christ his Saviour, even now?
 
cjab said:
Salvation is a universal commandment: God commands all men to be saved, to repent Acts 7:30. In this sense, the gospel is universal, not particular.
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Again, how can Christ be the Savior of all men if all men are not saved? That would be like me coming upon 50 drowning after their ship sank. I jump in and save 5 and then say I saved all of them. Yet, only five were saved.
 
cjab said:
Again, you extrapolate too far. He is not saying that they were disabled from faith from birth, per the Ausgustinian tradition (which of course fails to account for those Jews who had faith even prior to Christ) but that they disabled themselves from faith through their love of sinning, such that their damnation became unavoidable. The sins of the Pharisees were classed by Jesus as sins that went before them to judgement 1Ti 5:24. That is, they credited lies over truth, as an intellectual pursuit. Yet not just an intellectual pursuit, but a whole life pursuit in wanton defiance of truth.
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He literally said "but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep."[John 10:26] And then you went on a tangent to prove He said otherwise.
 
cjab said:
There was a time when the church aimed to be universal. Such was clearly the apostolic goal. But heresies crept in. Act 20:30 "Even from your own number [narcissists] will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them." Separately from diluting the gospel with heresies is the idea that God himself is a monster partial to a secret elect (such seems to have been credited by Gnostics), such that the love of God for sinners is in reality a fiction. [From a recent Tribunal panel judge (whose very comments led to the hearing being abandoned) "Responding to a comment that only atheists should be in public office, Mr Purkis posted: 'Damn right, you won't catch us killing in the name of our non-god.' "]

So I would contend that if not all men are saved, it is only because man has determined that it should be so, not Christ. Woe to the man through whom such things come (said Christ).
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There is a universal church that has transcended all time. This is where a distinction between the visible and invisible needs to be made, right @Reformedguy, @preacher4truth, & @Theo1689 ??
 
Reformedguy said:
It say Christ is the Saviour of all men.

Why would the Bible call Him the Saviour of all men if that obviously is not true. Could Adolph Hitler had called Christ his Saviour, even now?
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It obviously is true in the sense in which I have tried to convey it, but which sense doesn't conform with your theology.
 
SovereignGrace said:
Exactly. Our theology teaches Christ as a Perfect savior who saves all He wills to save.
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Whilst I don't disagree, I think that your horizon can become obfuscated by philosophical determinism that is of course solely in the hands of God and therefore incomprehensible to men. Certain doctrines relating to the divine will shouldn't be over-extrapolated so as to trample over other doctrines relating to the divine will that are equally valid. So there is harmony between God's election for specific individuals and God's purposes for many individuals. Implict in "God being the savior of all men" is that God always acts to maximize the number of the saved. If God refuses to show mercy to some, i.e. hardened the hearts of confirmed sinners, it is only for the sake of the elect. God always works for the good of those who love God. Rom 8:28.
 
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