Is God’s will always done?
- Thread starter 5wize
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I have absolutely no idea. I am just a human, with human understanding, I can't possibly know the mind of God, so I have no idea if his will is always done.
I'm going to guess that if it involves letting a cat out, then probably not.
Our cat is an absolute thug, I think the only reason he goes outside is to fight the local wildlife!
Fortunately, he's decided it's getting too cold and is spending most of his time sleeping near radiators! My wife keeps calling him a slacker.
positive atheist
Well-known member
The answer must be yes. Supposedly god created reality ex nihilo. So for every single thing that occurs in reality, including all evil actions, accidents and natural disasters, we can ask ourselves 2 things:
A) Did god know ahead of time these things would occur? Clearly the answer is yes.
B) Did god take actions that would cause these events to occur? Clearly the answer is yes.
Thus we can assume that everything that happens is god's will.
Christians will try to do an end run around this by saying god gave people free will so if a serial killer kills someone that is his fault, not god's fault.
This is nonsense because none of this changes A or B. If god knows taking action B will cause event A to occur and he performs B and A occurs then to say he did not will A is ridiculous. If you believe that then you must believe god performs certain actions that he knows infallibly will lead to certain results and yet he doesn't want those results to occur.
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
Was it God's will that His only begotten Son hang naked on a cross while His mother watched Him die an excruciatingly painful death?
A resounding Yes and a resounding No. Such is the paradoxical mystery of the Cross.
A resounding Yes and a resounding No. Such is the paradoxical mystery of the Cross.
SteveB
Well-known member
I'd suppose that would depend entirely on what you mean by God's Will.
If you're referring to the dog getting out, and eating the cat, I wouldn't know.
But the overall picture...
Isa 14:24 WEB Yahweh of Armies has sworn, saying, “Surely, as I have thought, so shall it happen; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand:
Scripture asserts God sovereign over all the happenings on the earth, and man is responsible for his actions.
Lk 22:22 ... For indeed, the Son of Man is going as it has been determined; but woe to that man by whom He is betrayed!”
positive atheist
Well-known member
You always seem to choose your words extremely carefully, like you either spent a lot of time thinking about it or got it out of a christian theology book. You are always trying to thread the needle, walk the word-tightrope. I assume you meant "god is sovereign".
Which of what I said, A or B, do you disagree with? Because if you agree with both and you also believe god does NOT want certain results to occur then you must believe, strangely, that god performs certain actions that he knows infallibly will lead to certain results and yet he doesn't want those results to occur.
I agree with both A and B.
positive atheist
Well-known member
It would seem to me then that either
(Y) You agree that god's will is always done, that he is basically responsible for everything
or
(Z) You must believe, strangely, that god performs certain actions that he knows infallibly will lead to certain results and yet he doesn't want those results to occur.
I told you scripture's position: God's will is always done, and men are responsible for their actions.
no, not everyone is saved
no, because people sin
positive atheist
Well-known member
I told you positive atheist's position:
A) Did god know ahead of time these things would occur? Clearly the answer is yes.
B) Did god take actions that would cause these events to occur? Clearly the answer is yes.
Thus we can assume that everything that happens is god's will.
I agreed with both A and B. You seemed perturbed by that.
positive atheist
Well-known member
More surprised than perturbed. Although I shouldn't be because you have, in the past, agreed with things most christians would not agree with.
As I said in #5 if you agree with A and B it strongly suggests "Thus we can assume that everything that happens is god's will." That is something most xtians would immediately deny.
No.
Not always.
God has a perfect will and a permissive will.
If God forced His way on us, there would be no atheists.
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
But God gave us freewill, and that's what rules.
Are you claiming that man’s action, which includes sin, is God’s will? It seems an inevitable conclusion given what you wrote.
It seems an odd “perfect” will. Allowing us the freedom of our will is cool I suppose... but then periodically his will seems to backfill, like water pressure behind a damn, he unleashes it - and then he destroys us.
Would it be better if he released a bit at a time in a more instructive way?
@AV1611VET made a claim of a “perfect” will. Are you familiar with what he means by perfect? Is the will of God merely the desires of God or is it more like his capacity to intend, purpose decree, ordain and make manifest?