Jesus' pre-existence before he was born as a human

[Anthony]

His 'Firstborn' status is of the New Creation. In the OT, The Firstborn has the birthright (Esau disposed his birthright and hence Jacob inherited) by the virtue of which he inherits father's inheritance. It's also a Priestly blessing where Kevites were counted for each firstborn of Israel.

In Yahusha's case, He inherits all spiritual blessings on behalf of His elect - who are transformed into Him

TanachReader,

Sorry for the spelling mistakes as my eyesight is weak.

It's 'despised' and not 'disposed'.

It's 'Levites' and not 'Kevites'

In The NT, Yahusha Messiah is The Firstborn Son having directly come out of God stands in the order of Melkitsedek Priesthood - part of New Creation in Whom His elect are complete.

Not only that, He is The Everlasting Father (God) in the age to come (New Creation where we will have been fully transformed).

No longer, we look for God outside of Him.

Eph 4:
8 Therefore he says, “When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to people.”

9 Now this, “He ascended,” what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.

Far above all the heavens shows He is The Most High.

It's in Bodily form He ascended and not in Spirit form as He first entered the creation.

 

[Tanachreader]

TanachReader,

Sorry for the spelling mistakes as my eyesight is weak.

It's 'despised' and not 'disposed'.

It's 'Levites' and not 'Kevites'

In The NT, Yahusha Messiah is The Firstborn Son having directly come out of God stands in the order of Melkitsedek Priesthood - part of New Creation in Whom His elect are complete.

Not only that, He is The Everlasting Father (God) in the age to come (New Creation where we will have been fully transformed).

No longer, we look for God outside of Him.

Eph 4:
8 Therefore he says, “When he ascended on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts to people.”

9 Now this, “He ascended,” what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?

10 He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.

Far above all the heavens shows He is The Most High.

It's in Bodily form He ascended and not in Spirit form as He first entered the creation.

My eyesight is also weak.?

 

[Nathan P]

But the subject is who he was an image of.

 

[johnny guitar]

Who is The Father? Is His Fatherhood apart from Sonship of Yahusha Messiah? Of course not!

God as The Father is beyond space, matter and time with no one to reach Him except The One Who proceeded forth from His own Being and became part of His own creation.

When people ask Yahusha Messiah to show them The Father, He will still rebuke them by quoting John 14:9

9 יהושע said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father, and how do you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

IOW The Son is God.

 

[Anthony]

IOW The Son is God.

How many times you just post one liners?

Who denies The Son is God?

But He ain't another Person of God beside the Father as you Trinitarians believe. This belief is idolatry and mis-representation of God.

The Son is His Express Image in New Creation. The Father is not part of creation but the Son is.

FYI, One can confess freely that Whom we know as Yahusha Messiah is both Transcendent and Immanent.

1Tim 6;
14 that you guard the command b spotlessly, blamelessly, until the appearing of our Master יהושע Messiah,

15 which in His own seasons He shall reveal – the blessed and only Ruler, the Sovereign of sovereigns and Master of masters,

16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or is able to see, to whom be respect and everlasting might. Amĕn.

 

[Nathan P]

Who is The Father? Is His Fatherhood apart from Sonship of Yahusha Messiah? Of course not!

God as The Father is beyond space, matter and time with no one to reach Him except The One Who proceeded forth from His own Being and became part of His own creation.

When people ask Yahusha Messiah to show them The Father, He will still rebuke them by quoting John 14:9

9 יהושע said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father, and how do you say, ‘Show us the Father’?

The point is it is talking about who he is an image of there correct?

 

[johnny guitar]

How many times you just post one liners?

Who denies The Son is God?

But He ain't another Person of God beside the Father as you Trinitarians believe. This belief is idolatry and mis-representation of God.

The Son is His Express Image in New Creation. The Father is not part of creation but the Son is.

FYI, One can confess freely that Whom we know as Yahusha Messiah is both Transcendent and Immanent.

1Tim 6;
14 that you guard the command b spotlessly, blamelessly, until the appearing of our Master יהושע Messiah,

15 which in His own seasons He shall reveal – the blessed and only Ruler, the Sovereign of sovereigns and Master of masters,

16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or is able to see, to whom be respect and everlasting might. Amĕn.

Our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Tim. 6:14.
The King of kings, and Lord of lords. 6:16
To Him be honor and power everlasting. 6:16.

The point is it is talking about who he is an image of there correct?

The point is WHO Jesus Christ is and what He has done.
1. He is the HEAD, RULER of all creation.
2. BY Him were ALL things created.
3. He is eternal, BEFORE ALL things.

 

[Anthony]

The point is it is talking about who he is an image of there correct?

This is TS2009 translation:

Heb1: 3 who being the brightness of the esteem and the exact representation of His substance, and sustaining all by the word of His power, having made a cleansing of our sins through Himself, sat down at the right hand.

This is the Aramaic Peshitta translation:

Heb 1:3 3 He is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification for sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

KJV translation of this verse is erroneous; which says 'Express image of His PERSON'

There is no 'Person' there. This wrongly used 'Person' is the cause of various theological schools in Christendom. This error makes Transcendent God a Person and the very image of His substance another Person. This is the foundational error in Christendom in its various forms of 'isms'.

The very image doesn't mean He is a created being. It means that He expresses the One and Only God in Bodily form that is tangible.

It's God Who transitioned Himself from Unknown and invisible substance to be known tangible as was witnessed by the Apostles to us and thereafter will be seen as The Everlasting Father in New Creation (the age to come).

Who appeared to the OT prophets in form of a Man? The same Yahuah Who became Yahusha in the NT as The Firstborn over all creatures (His elect). That's why His birth was supernatural without DNA of earthy father (Adam) but of the substance of transcendent God.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of יהוה Elohim walking about in the garden in the cool of the day, and Aḏam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of יהוה Elohim among the trees of the garden.

Exod 15:3 “יהוה is a man of battle, יהוה is His Name.

Exod 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.

In Hebrews 4:12, The Word of God is called the double edged sword ( in original form it's double mouthed). Two mouths related to the same Person Who spoke to the prophets in the OT and as a witness to His Disciples in the NT.

G1366 'distomos' from G1364 'Dis' meaning twice and G4790 'Stoma' which means mouth.

Rev 1:16 And in His right hand He held seven stars, and out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His face was as the sun shining in its strength.

He is The First and The Last (The First Estate of His Being and The Last Estate of His Being) reference Isaiah 44:6.

IOW, God Who is the Creator took part of His own creation as The Son to adopt us into His family as sons and to be The Everlasting Father in the New Creation (age to come).


Rev 21:
6 And He said to me, “It is done! I am the ’Aleph’ and the ‘Taw’, the Beginning and the End. To the one who thirsts I shall give of the fountain of the water of life without payment.(See John 7:37)

7 “The one who overcomes shall inherit all this, and I shall be his Elohim and he shall be My son.
V6 above has a reference to John 7:37:

Now on the last and greatest day of the feast, Yeshua stood and said in a loud voice, “If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.

 

[Anthony]

Our Lord Jesus Christ. 1 Tim. 6:14.
The King of kings, and Lord of lords. 6:16
To Him be honor and power everlasting. 6:16

That's what I have been saying. He is both Transcendent and Immanent. There is only One King of kings and Adon of Adonym. Not two Persons.

The point is WHO Jesus Christ is and what He has done.
1. He is the HEAD, RULER of all creation.
2. BY Him were ALL things created.
3. He is eternal, BEFORE ALL things.

See above. But it doesn't rule out Him being The Firstborn of all creation (His elect and not others).

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Divine Rule: The first shall be last and the LAST shall be the FIRST.

He being The First took upon Himself The Last Estate so that He will take back The First in the New Creation.

It also goes against those who remain in their first estate of carnality without taking the last estate of humility. Taking humility path of spiritual life in Messiah would lead them to glory in the New Creation.

Man/Adam is earthy and carnal in his beginning so not to be compared to Yahusha Who was in the form of God.

But His elect are taken together in His humility of Sonship to adopt them as sons in to the family of God.

Phil 2:5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Meshikha Yeshua,

 

[johnny guitar]

That's what I have been saying. He is both Transcendent and Immanent. There is only One King of kings and Adon of Adonym. Not two Persons.

See above. But it doesn't rule out Him being The Firstborn of all creation (His elect and not others).

Rom 8:29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

Divine Rule: The first shall be last and the LAST shall be the FIRST.

He being The First took upon Himself The Last Estate so that He will take back The First in the New Creation.

It also goes against those who remain in their first estate of carnality without taking the last estate of humility. Taking humility path of spiritual life in Messiah would lead them to glory in the New Creation.

Man/Adam is earthy and carnal in his beginning so not to be compared to Yahusha Who was in the form of God.

But His elect are taken together in His humility of Sonship to adopt them as sons in to the family of God.

Phil 2:5 Have this in your mind, which was also in Meshikha Yeshua,

The firstborn of all creation= Ruler, Head of creation.
IOW The CREATOR.

 

[Anthony]

The firstborn of all creation= Ruler, Head of creation.
IOW The CREATOR.

You are so ignorant of the OT that you make your own private interpretations of the NT to your own destruction. You don't have the mind of Messiah for which you need to to be born from above.

Firstborn has nothing to do with being The Creator but that He is The Firstborn among many brethren in the New Creation whereby there is transfer of all spiritual blessings and inheritance from The Transcendent Father.

The Firstborn, The Firstfruits related to Yahusha Messiah. These are OT terms used in the NT.

The same can be understood in :

Rev 3:14 “And to the messenger of the assembly in Laodikeia write, ‘The Amĕn, the Trustworthy and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of Elohim, says this:

He is the begining of the Creation of God! Which Creation? New Creation!

There was no Son of God in the OT but all over in ptophetic scriptures. It doesn't mean He is not God.

But He doesn't need Trinitarians to prove He is God by stretching scriptures too far. Trinitarians are as ignorant as Unitarians are but base their understanding from traditions than personal revelation of God.

 

[johnny guitar]

You are so ignorant of the OT that you make your own private interpretations of the NT to your own destruction. You don't have the mind of Messiah for which you need to to be born from above.

Firstborn has nothing to do with being The Creator but that He is The Firstborn among many brethren in the New Creation whereby there is transfer of all spiritual blessings and inheritance from The Transcendent Father.

The Firstborn, The Firstfruits related to Yahusha Messiah. These are OT terms used in the NT.

The same can be understood in :

Rev 3:14 “And to the messenger of the assembly in Laodikeia write, ‘The Amĕn, the Trustworthy and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of Elohim, says this:

He is the begining of the Creation of God! Which Creation? New Creation!

There was no Son of God in the OT but all over in ptophetic scriptures. It doesn't mean He is not God.

But He doesn't need Trinitarians to prove He is God by stretching scriptures too far. Trinitarians are as ignorant as Unitarians are but base their understanding from traditions than personal revelation of God.

Firstborn OVER ALL creation.
Beginning of ALL creation.

 

[Anthony]

Firstborn OVER ALL creation.
Beginning of ALL creation.

Repeating something you can't explain means nothing.

The Firstborn relates to the New Creation as much as the Beginning of the creation of God.

Yahusha is the Firstfruits and those who are of those belonging to Him at His appearing.

1Cor 15:23 And each in his own order: Messiah the first-fruits, then those who are of Messiah at His coming.

Firstborn, Firstfruits apply to Him.

 

[johnny guitar]

Repeating something you can't explain means nothing.

The Firstborn relates to the New Creation as much as the Beginning of the creation of God.

Yahusha is the Firstfruits and those who are of those belonging to Him at His appearing.

1Cor 15:23 And each in his own order: Messiah the first-fruits, then those who are of Messiah at His coming.

Firstborn, Firstfruits apply to Him.

Ruler of ALL creation, BOTH old & new.
Origin of God's creation BOTH old & new.

 

[Anthony]

Ruler of ALL creation, BOTH old & new.
Origin of God's creation BOTH old & new.

Not just Ruler because that's another lesson in other set of scriptures.

God doesn't need you to prove He is The King of kings and Adon of Adonym.

I have nothing to learn from you because you are not a true believer.

 

[johnny guitar]

Not just Ruler because that's another lesson in other set of scriptures.

God doesn't need you to prove He is The King of kings and Adon of Adonym.

I have nothing to learn from you because you are not a true believer.

Indeed, Jesus Christ is The King of kings and Lord of lords.

 

[Our Lord's God]

The firstborn of all creation= Ruler, Head of creation.
IOW The CREATOR.

18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to be first in all things. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

 

[johnny guitar]

18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to be first in all things. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Yes, He HIMSELF has the preeminence in ALL things and BY Him to reconcile ALL things to Himself.
Wow! He must be God.

 

[Anthony]

18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to be first in all things. 19 For it was the Father’s good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, 20 and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Col 1: 19 Because in Him all the completeness was well pleased to dwell,

There is no Father in the above verse because its in His Sonship the Fatherhood of God is revealed.

Col 1:15 who is the likeness of the invisible Elohim, the first-born of all creation.

The invisible Elohim refers to the transcendent Elohim (beyond space, matter and time) Whom no one has seen or can see.

I don't see how creatures can have ever access to Him except through Yahusha Messiah, The Son of Elohim because He proceeded forth from transcendent Elohim's own Being. Downplaying the One Who arrived in creation doesn't hold water. We need Yahusha Messiah to be connected to Elohim in Himself.

The Father and The Son are not Names nor distinct Persons. It's by surface reading of scriptures one arrives at that foundational error in both Trinitarianism and Unitarianism.

Heb 1:3 He is the radiance of his glory, the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification for sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

He is not the very image of the Person of God but rather His substance which otherwise would have been unknown.

Transcendent Elohim is not a Person by any standard. The error in both Trinitarianism and Unitarianism is that they consider Transcendent Elohim (Father) is a Person. The substance is Spirit and Yahusha Messiah is the Bodily form of the substance of Elohim.

1John 5:
7 Because there are three who bear witness: note

8 the Spirit, and the water, and the blood. And the three are in agreement.

He is the Spirit transcripted form of God in creation by being part of it and through His resurrection He is The Firstborn over all in New Creation.

Once His Sonship is subjected to The Father at the end of this age, He shall be The Everlasting Father as He will be face to face with His glorified saints.

The unregenerate are all looking for a Father outside of Yahusha but they have no place in the new creation as they are all bound with Satan within the perimeter of 1000 years to be loosed to trample the outercourt of the temple to make it a dead carcass.

 

[Anthony]

Indeed, Jesus Christ is The King of kings and Lord of lords.

This won't save you from just lip sevice.