johnny guitar
Well-known member
The Son is the EXACT IMAGE of God and was NEVER created.
Jesus, the Son of Man. What does it mean?
- Thread starter Lilel01
- Start date
If he’s the image OF God, then he’s not God.
He was, about 2027 years ago.
CrowCross
Well-known member
To add to that the bible says Jesus "emptied" Himself (kenosis)...and became a man.
For Jesus to empty Himself there must have been a pre-existence prior to emptying Himself.....An existence from which He emptied Himself of something prior to becoming a man.
CrowCross
Well-known member
There is so much that shows Jesus was God and still is God.
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
Yes it does. There are some in this forum who think it teaches that Jesus is the Father to explain his miracles.
Jesus told us how. - John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)
In addition Jesus claimed that his Father knew things that he did not know. Hardly a claim of omniscience. - Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. (KJV)
You should also read John 5:19-20:
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Jesus is taught by the Father. But that's not all. He says that the Father will show him more things in the future.
He is not Omnicient.
20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
So, since this is your proof that Jesus is God but Jesus says "the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works" then this should convince you that Jesus is not God.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
Father and Son dwell in each other and work TOGETHER.
Towerwatchman
Well-known member
First none of this a rebuttal. Learn how to write a rebuttal. The topic is being fully God and fully Man at once. Note my post shows Jesus being omniscient when on earth. Writing 101 address post first, then you can go off into left field. But for the readers sake.
The above does not address omniscience.
Each person of the Trinity is a center of consciousness, which has self-awareness, from which mind, will, and desire originates. Thought originates from within. If the "date" originates in the mind of the Father and He chooses not to share it with the Son, how could the Son who is equal in quality and quantity with the Father know it? As it relates between the Godhead and man God knows all, but if within the Godhead, if one member cannot withhold information from the other that would make one greater than the other, thus they are not equal. So Mark 13:32 does not support the idea that Jesus did not possess His attributes while on earth.
But did you bother to carefully read the passage. Nothing in the passage states that the father taught Jesus. Seeing someone do X does not equate to being taught. But let's continue with the lesson.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself,
The Son can do nothing of himself—that is, apart from and in rivalry of the Father, as they supposed. The meaning is, “The Son can have no separate interest or action from the Father.”
but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
likewise ὁμοίως [homoios /hom·oy·oce/] likewise, equally, in the same way. Better, as Rev., in like manner. Likewise is popularly understood as equivalent to also; but as to “working” the word indicates identity of action based upon identity of nature. Claim to absolute equality with the Father could exceed this: not only to do “the same things,” but to do them as the Father does them?
Has nothing to do with omniscience. Reading is fundamental.
20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
John 5:20 {all things} -- {He Himself does}. Jesus states that the Father is reveals all things that He Himself does. Therefore not an all encompassing ‘all’. All this proves is that the Father and Son do not work in opposition, but together. How do you equate the Father showing the Son what He [Father] does, to the Son not being omniscient. For your non-sense to work it should read something as to "The Father shows the Son all things that the Son does not know."
Next time be an adult and address the following first, before you start quoting from your Jehovah's Witness rag.
Now Jesus loved Martha and her sister and Lazarus. 6 So, when He heard that he was sick, He stayed two more days in the place where He was. 7 Then after this He said to the disciples, “Let us go to Judea again.”
8 The disciples said to Him, “Rabbi, lately the Jews sought to stone You, and are You going there again?”
9 Jesus answered, “Are there not twelve hours in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world.10 But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.” 11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead.
How did Jesus (man) know that Lazarus is dead?
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Revelation from God. God told him.
johnny guitar
Well-known member
NO such statement in the Bible.
You are injecting your personal BIAS.
PLENTY of people in the Bible received revelation from God. Do you need examples?
Towerwatchman
Well-known member
Why not start of with once upon a time?
Solo Scriptura.
What in the passage states that? Carries as much validity as getting a text message from the HS.
Because revelation from God is real. God told Jesus plenty.
Many people in the Bible got revelation from God. Jesus was certainly no exception. Jesus probably got more revelation from God than anyone else in the Bible.
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
You expended a lot of words and never addressed what refutes you:
Jesus told us how. - John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)
This means that every super-human or divine act that you attribute to Jesus as a man on earth is what the Father does in him.
Your objection has been dispatched by the one who you call LORD.
Towerwatchman
Well-known member
So when it’s convenient, you add to the text, and when it’s convenient, it’s solo scriptura.
Nothing in the text hints it was a revelation for the Father or HS
Towerwatchman
Well-known member
Again, you do not realize the can of worms you open, when you shoot from the hip. If your interpretation of the text is true, then it is the center of self consciousness of the Father that pulls the strings. So one has to ask, did Jesus make any free will choices, or was it the Father, who made the choices?
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
I'm not shooting from the hips. I've used this passage for decades. These are the words of Jesus himself.
John 14:10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. (KJV)
Let's apply this to your proof text. Jesus said Lazarus is dead ..... "the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me."
My view of Jesus is someone who is always praying and in communication with his Father. Why would the Father speaking to His beloved Son take away his free will? When I pray I ask for help and wisdom and even if I don't know how He will answer. That's faith and trust.
But I digress. You ask an irrelevant question and let's not get off topic.
You have been refuted. According to Jesus words all the works he did were because of the Father.
He emptied "himself" from being in the form of God (that's μορφή), he is not God Himself, into the form of a slave.
When he emptied "himself" from being in the form of God the Father and took the form of a human being he did not leave anything of himself behind otherwise it's not an emptying.
Towerwatchman
Well-known member
You refuted nothing but opened up a can of worms you cannot get away from. Rebuttals have to be solid, and your is not. One can apply it to the crucifixion. Was that a free will choice or did the Father speaks those words?
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
There is no can of worms. You are attempting to deflect from what Jesus clearly said.
And remember. Asking a question is not a rebuttal.
What part of John 14:10 is false?
Believes thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me?
The words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: [You said it was Jesus independent of his Father]
but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. [You say Jesus alone did the works]
You have no rebuttal. You have a smoke screen and it's not working.
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In the account is said that Lazarus' sisters sent Jesus a message informing him that Lazarus was sick.
John 11:3 So his sisters sent a message to him, saying: “Lord, see! the one you have affection for is sick.”
Despite the news, Jesus stayed where he was for two more days (John 11:6). If we think about why he stayed there without going immediately, then we might think about the reasons why he knew that Lazarus had already died probably a few hours after the bad news. Jesus most probably knew that the death of Lazarus was an event that was going to happen soon. He was very far from that area. He had to spend a few more days until he arrived at Bethany (near Jerusalem), where the family of his friends lived, four days after Lazarus' death.
When Jesus tells his disciples that Lazarus had already died, he tells them something interesting:
John 11:16 I rejoice for your sake that I was not there, so that you may believe.
So apparently the death of Lazarus was inevitable due to the state of Lazarus to the point of his sisters being so desperate, but Jesus knew that his death was an opportunity for his disciples to have full confidence that he had the support of God. That is why when they open the tomb he says to Jehovah:
John 11:41 (...) “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 True, I knew that you always hear me; but I spoke on account of the crowd standing around, so that they may believe that you sent me.”
John 11:3 So his sisters sent a message to him, saying: “Lord, see! the one you have affection for is sick.”
Despite the news, Jesus stayed where he was for two more days (John 11:6). If we think about why he stayed there without going immediately, then we might think about the reasons why he knew that Lazarus had already died probably a few hours after the bad news. Jesus most probably knew that the death of Lazarus was an event that was going to happen soon. He was very far from that area. He had to spend a few more days until he arrived at Bethany (near Jerusalem), where the family of his friends lived, four days after Lazarus' death.
When Jesus tells his disciples that Lazarus had already died, he tells them something interesting:
John 11:16 I rejoice for your sake that I was not there, so that you may believe.
So apparently the death of Lazarus was inevitable due to the state of Lazarus to the point of his sisters being so desperate, but Jesus knew that his death was an opportunity for his disciples to have full confidence that he had the support of God. That is why when they open the tomb he says to Jehovah:
John 11:41 (...) “Father, I thank you that you have heard me. 42 True, I knew that you always hear me; but I spoke on account of the crowd standing around, so that they may believe that you sent me.”
Roger Thornhill
Well-known member
I agree.
One thing tho about this forum is that many who proof-text cry fowl when their "logic" is not followed but won't make the same effort they require of others.