Jesus, the Son of Man. What does it mean?

[Tanachreader]

Some religious people have already decided by themselves what they have to twist in the Bible because it doesn't fit their beliefs. If they spoke honestly, they would confess to you that they consider themselves authorized to re-interpret what was written because they have a better vision than you... and you must accept that it is not how you are reading it, but how they are telling you. Something like the new Popes.

When you try to reason with these people by showing them solid arguments for your position, they will in no way accept anything you say nor will they have the slightest intention of giving you a chance to explain yourself... For them it is not about what the Bible says, but that you dare to question what they want you to believe; It is an exercise of power.

Jehovah's Witnesses have a Governing Body of brothers anointed with holy spirit. But when they explain a biblical teaching, they offer all possible details so that you understand that certain understanding is reasonable and originates in the Scriptures themselves, not in their heads. That is why they constantly encourage us to study and meditate thoroughly on the Scriptures. They are not afraid of what we understand when we study because their conclussions came precisely from studying with the support of the holy spirit in them. If there is any issue that we cannot fully understand, we send a letter to more mature brothers for better clarification. We do not try to cast doubts on our brothers by dividing the congregation, but if our doubts are sincere, then we wait for clarification.

Jehovah's Witnesses reason with others; We do not impose our understanding on them.

You have no one anointed with holy spirit.
Believing Jesus is Michael the angel keeps you from God.

 

[Runningman]

Some religious people have already decided by themselves what they have to twist in the Bible because it doesn't fit their beliefs.

It's because the Bible is foundational, but we don't all begin at the same page or pull the same information from the pages. We also don't understand it all the same way.

For example, Trinitarians do not know enough to know what they do not know. If they do not know the truth they will not know they do not know the truth. In effect, the knowledge needed to speak the truth is the same knowledge needed to recognize what the truth is.

This is why there are so many people in Christianity with vastly different opinions and perspectives with an inappropriate and disproportional amount of confidence - and it seems like the most blind become the loudest and most militant.

People tend to read one-liners from the Bible and now feel like they have knowledge of the truth, yet lack sight of the bigger picture... often willfully.

 

[Towerwatchman]

Some religious people have already decided by themselves what they have to twist in the Bible because it doesn't fit their beliefs. If they spoke honestly, they would confess to you that they consider themselves authorized to re-interpret what was written because they have a better vision than you... and you must accept that it is not how you are reading it, but how they are telling you. Something like the new Popes.

When you try to reason with these people by showing them solid arguments for your position, they will in no way accept anything you say nor will they have the slightest intention of giving you a chance to explain yourself... For them it is not about what the Bible says, but that you dare to question what they want you to believe; It is an exercise of power.

Jehovah's Witnesses have a Governing Body of brothers anointed with holy spirit. But when they explain a biblical teaching, they offer all possible details so that you understand that certain understanding is reasonable and originates in the Scriptures themselves, not in their heads. That is why they constantly encourage us to study and meditate thoroughly on the Scriptures. They are not afraid of what we understand when we study because their conclussions came precisely from studying with the support of the holy spirit in them. If there is any issue that we cannot fully understand, we send a letter to more mature brothers for better clarification. We do not try to cast doubts on our brothers by dividing the congregation, but if our doubts are sincere, then we wait for clarification.

Jehovah's Witnesses reason with others; We do not impose our understanding on them.

If you were honest you would address this the the person it is intended for. You don't reply but post as if your have some authority from which you can ignore posters. Look at it like this. The trolls show moré courtesy by replying to posters.

 

[Lilel01]

Preeminence, Not Creation: When Jesus is referred to as the “firstborn of all creation,” it does not mean that He is a created being. Instead, it emphasizes His preeminence over all creation. The term “firstborn” can denote either preeminence in rank or preeminence in time. In this context, it signifies His supreme position and authority.
Christ’s Relationship to God: The passage in Colossians 1:15-21 describes Jesus as “the image of the invisible God.” This means that although He took on human form, He possesses the exact nature of God. In other words, Jesus is God incarnate. He is visible, audible, approachable, knowable, and available—fully representing the divine nature.
Eternal Creator: Jesus is not a created being; rather, He is the eternal Creator. John 1 clearly identifies Him as the One through whom all things were created. God created the world through Christ and also redeemed the world through Him. Therefore, Jesus is both the Creator and the Redeemer, not a mere creation.
Sovereignty Over Creation: The term “firstborn” (Greek word “prototokos”) signifies priority and rank. In the cultural context of the Ancient Near East, the firstborn held the inheritance and leadership. Thus, when Jesus is called the firstborn of all creation, it expresses His sovereignty over the entire created order. After His resurrection, God granted Him authority over the Earth, making Him the acknowledged Head of creation.
Messiah and King: Psalm 89:27 further illuminates this concept by stating, “I will make Him [Christ] My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.” This recognition points to Jesus as the Messiah, the One who holds the highest position and authority in God’s plan of redemption.
The phrase “firstborn of all creation” highlights Jesus’ preeminence, His eternal nature, and His role as both Creator and Redeemer. It does not imply that He was created; rather, it emphasizes His supreme position over all things

The word FIRSTBORN can mean several things.

But the phrase "firstborn of all creation" means that the one who bears the title is part of the creation.

For example, if you say "firstborn of the dead" (Rev. 1:5) it means that the one who bears that title was also dead, he was one of them.

That is why saying that Jesus is "firstborn of God" (Heb. 1:6) is not the same as saying that Jesus is "firstborn of all creation" (Col. 1:15).

PS: Forget about theological writings and reason by yourself on what the Bible says, so you can come to your own conclusions.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

What a hypocrite. For several days, you have been arguing that the name of God does not really matter.

That's not my view at all. Perhaps you worded that incorrectly.

And now you argue this. The reason John use logos was because he was addressing a Greek audience.
Paul did the same on Mars Hill. Read the account .

And you miss my point entirely. You don't really believe the Son of God had the title Logos before John wrote his gospel account?

And you think Revelation that you quoted only calls Jesus the word because of Greek false religion?

For as I passed by, and beheld your devotions, I found an altar with this inscription, The Unknown God. Whom therefore ye ignorantly worship, him declare I unto you. 24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

If you read the account of the unknown god on Mars Hill anyone can see that it is Yahweh.

Not the same at all.

 

[Lilel01]

It's because the Bible is foundational, but we don't all begin at the same page or pull the same information from the pages. We also don't understand it all the same way.

For example, Trinitarians do not know enough to know what they do not know. If they do not know the truth they will not know they do not know the truth. In effect, the knowledge needed to speak the truth is the same knowledge needed to recognize what the truth is.

This is why there are so many people in Christianity with vastly different opinions and perspectives with an inappropriate and disproportional amount of confidence - and it seems like the most blind become the loudest and most militant.

People tend to read one-liners from the Bible and now feel like they have knowledge of the truth, yet lack sight of the bigger picture... often willfully.

That's why Jesus clarified how to recognize the true ones, and it was not because of their knowledge.

The holy spirit is recognized in the fruit it produces.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

Fallacy of an appealing to the message and appealing to authority.
Why not just simply prove me wrong.

As I've told you all along .... you bear the burden of proof for your arguments. And you never accept it.

You have not met the burden of proof but you did prepare a bare argument with no more than your own opinion.

 

[Towerwatchman]

That's not my view at all. Perhaps you worded that incorrectly.




And you miss my point entirely. You don't really believe the Son of God had the title Logos before John wrote his gospel account?

And you think Revelation that you quoted only calls Jesus the word because of Greek false religion?




Not the same at all.

Did I ever write that Jesus had the title Logos before John wrote? Read my post again.

 

[Towerwatchman]

As I've told you all along .... you bear the burden of proof for your arguments. And you never accept it.

You have not met the burden of proof but you did prepare a bare argument with no more than your own opinion.

I have. You keep waving your hand as if waving a hand is a rebuttal. In a court of law you would have lost your case from the opening arguments.

Here is how clueless you are.
Note the post you decided to get involved with.

Where in Philippians 2 does it state that Jesus sacrificed his divine nature? It doesn’t state that, it states that Jesus being in the form of God, equal to God, came in the likeness of men. Nothing in the verse or the passage states Jesus laid aside His divine nature.

It's a question. Why do I have to bear the burden of proof, of a question? You don't know when to quit.

 

[Runningman]

That's why Jesus clarified how to recognize the true ones, and it was not because of their knowledge.

The holy spirit is recognized in the fruit it produces.

It isn't fool proof, but yes typically there are litmus tests to find real born-again believers.

However, the knowledge of the truth, the unity of the faith, and doctrine is something God seeks for us I believe.

1 Tim 2
4who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

 

[shroom]

What you are saying means nothing.
Do you know what would be involved in that process working with His Father.
We are talking about everything vivible and unseen.

whether they be "thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers."

There is nothing there about the heavens and the earth.

 

[Towerwatchman]

@Roger Thornhill That character is just a puppet programmed by manual, impersonating an apostate ex-witness. It is an automaton which will not be able to reason what you explain to it, so it is incapable of accepting reality even if you put it in front of him. When it expresses any kind of agreement with you it will be false and only apparent because by not recognizing a reasoning it cannot have a real reaction to it. In this specific case it has been programmed by a hater, probably a resentful ex-witness or a religious person of those who send you to hell if you don't agree with them. These automata are bad copies of Siri, Alexa, Cortana, Bixby or Google Assistant. It’s like those companies sent religious forums their trash.

Most likely this character is just a clone of several with diverse characters, all of them managed by the same looser seating in his dark office in front of a few browsers and electronic equipments. Remember that forums are a business, and money is what drives a business, so under that premise, the owner does not care if any user clones himself 20 times to multiply himself with the idea of having more influence. .. in the end the more traffic, even if it is from bots, the more benefits. There are religious people who do the very same thing because they think they’re fighting for Christ; evidently theirs is a fictitious christ that feeds on the hatred and hypocrisy of individuals like those. Notice most of them didn’t open even one thread in this subform and got thousands of one liner posts. Do you think these people are serious? Others repeat the same cliches again and again and again, in different topics, in different subforms, in different threads …

As for me, I don't respond to apostates or clones of apostates, or to bots programmed to answer, or to haters, or to people who don't even know what they're talking about... You may have noticed that there are those who respond to a comment of yours and say things that make no sense, unrelated to what your post says... Don't give away your time; use it wisely, respond only when you believe it’s a real person who will reason with you and respond reasonably. Do not participate in the macabre game of those who are not even interested in what you tell them no matter how much time you spend studying the topic or how much effort you did to get to your conclusion. Perhaps they are not believers at all and they are just having some fun with you and the handlers of these puppets laugh at you, at how you waste your time in the game they have set for you.

Don’t even lose your time reading nonsense from those characters. Your time and effort are priceless; don’t waste them. At the end, real honest persons will be guided by God to understand what they need and do what they should. It’s not up to you to change anything; just confirm the truth by yourself and do what you have to. Do your best to reason with others and if it doesn't work, walk away, talk with somebody else or just try to help others in real life as much as you can. Don’t concentrate in “socializing” on internet; this world is a fantasy, so communicate in real life with real persons, talk to them, reason with them, study with them face to face.

I knew it would just take time for the real you to appear. The same character as always. Act like the friendly door knocker to gain entry. And hate viciously anyone who left the organization. Your controllers trained you well to follow the rules, - no interactions with apostates [Ex Witnesses]. But your pride gets to you. So you addresses to Roger but it is intended for me. Since I left the organization I have been most happy, I now know who my God is, and no one tells me who I can and cannot talk to. And when I see your kind on the street with their carts and the frown on their faces (cause they do not want to be there) I engage them and to my surprise how little the know of scripture. That includes you. The dumb leading the dumber, who leads the dumbass. So be the little puppet you've been trained to be and ignore me.

BTW what you posted.

Ad hominem fallacy.

It simply attacking the person making the argument rather than the argument itself when the attack on the person is completely irrelevant to the argument the person is making. This is usually the last position of ignorance knowing that it cannot compete with the intelligence and character of X, it is usually a sign of desperation on the part of the one insulting. [Logically Fallacious]

When you get to hell say hello to Russel Tate for me.

 

[Lilel01]

The religion as a group to which one belongs is very important. If the leaders of a community do not bear fruit worthy of the holy spirit, that community is lost, because it has not followed instructions from whom Jesus describes here:

Matt. 24:45 “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time?

On earth at this time, Jesus only has one organization that he leads. That is why the acts and teachings, as well as the fruit of their followers, of the leaders of religious groups are those that can indicate reality.

As much as it may seem that there are groups close to the truth, Jesus does not know those who he does not directly lead. Those groups are on their own.

Luke 13:25 When the householder gets up and locks the door, you will stand outside knocking at the door, saying, ‘Lord, open to us.’ But in answer he will say to you: ‘I do not know where you are from.’ 26 Then you will start saying, ‘We ate and drank in your presence, and you taught in our main streets.’ 27 But he will say to you, ‘I do not know where you are from. Get away from me, all you workers of unrighteousness!’

 

[shroom]

Some religious people have already decided by themselves what they have to twist in the Bible because it doesn't fit their beliefs.

Some people have rewritten the Bible to make it fit their beliefs. See the NWT.

For them it is not about what the Bible says

For me, it's exactly about what the Bible says.

Jehovah's Witnesses reason with others; We do not impose our understanding on them.

You're trying very hard to convince people that Jesus Christ is Michael.

 

[shroom]

On earth at this time, Jesus only has one organization that he leads. That is why the acts and teachings, as well as the fruit of their followers, of the leaders of religious groups are those that can indicate reality.

Ah, your true colors are finally appearing. You believe the JWs are that one organization. Isn't it also true that you believe you're the only ones who will be saved?

 

[Roger Thornhill]

Did I ever write that Jesus had the title Logos before John wrote? Read my post again.

No and that's the problem I have with your story. Go back and read my objection.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

I have. You keep waving your hand as if waving a hand is a rebuttal. In a court of law you would have lost your case from the opening arguments.

Here is how clueless you are.
Note the post you decided to get involved with.

Where in Philippians 2 does it state that Jesus sacrificed his divine nature? It doesn’t state that, it states that Jesus being in the form of God, equal to God, came in the likeness of men. Nothing in the verse or the passage states Jesus laid aside His divine nature.

It's a question. Why do I have to bear the burden of proof, of a question? You don't know when to quit.

The literal Greek states that he emptied "himself" from being "in" the form of God to be in the form of a slave.

You don't understand that "himself" is the direct object of empty and so it was what was emptied.

If you come to understand the function of the direct object to the verb you will understand.

 

[Tanachreader]

whether they be "thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers."

There is nothing there about the heavens and the earth.

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

 

[Runningman]

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;

16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

I think it's time we take another honest look at Colossians 1:16 again. Did you know that "b y him were all things created" refers to Jesus as an intermediary, channel, or instrument through which something was created?

That means Jesus isn't the creator. Jesus is more like a tool, but the creator is actually God. This is why Colossians 1:15 refers to Jesus as an image of the invisible God because he isn't God. The image of someone or something is not the original. Think of when you see yourself in the mirror. No matter how much your reflection looks like you, it actually isn't the real you.

in
ἐν (en)
Preposition
Strong's Greek 1722: In, on, among. A primary preposition denoting position, and instrumentality, i.e. A relation of rest; 'in, ' at, on, by, etc.

Colossians 1
16 for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can’t see— such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him.

 

[Towerwatchman]

The literal Greek states that he emptied "himself" from being "in" the form of God to be in the form of a slave.

You don't understand that "himself" is the direct object of empty and so it was what was emptied.

If you come to understand the function of the direct object to the verb you will understand.

How does one empty himself of deity?