LFW cannot escape the randomness charge

And that is precisely why "chance" is appropriate as a criticism of libertarian freedom. If absolutely nothing determines the decision making faculties because of their transcendent/ultimate nature, then an act of the will or choice is an ontologically arbitrary event. It is no different than a chance event. You have demonstrated the very point of critique of the opening post.

No one argues "absolutely nothing determines the decision," it's a humongous straw man we deny over and over and over.

You don't wake up and say "WOW, look what I chose, who would have guessed."

By definition agent causation means the agent is the cause of the choice, he has control over it, thereby NOT random, NOT arbitrary, and NOT chance.

Failed criticisms.
 
If the reasons do not determine the outcome, and it could have been different, then there has to be at least a random component to choices, or how could it have been different given the exact same circumstances?

Random implies A LACK OF CONTROL.

The agent is not OUT OF CONTROL, even if what he chooses has no prior reason.
 
No one argues "absolutely nothing determines the decision," it's a humongous straw man we deny over and over and over.

You don't wake up and say "WOW, look what I chose, who would have guessed."

By definition agent causation means the agent is the cause of the choice, he has control over it, thereby NOT random, NOT arbitrary, and NOT chance.

Failed criticisms.
And thusly, you have advocated compatibilism. In what you describe, there is no ability to do otherwise. The agent cannot be otherwise that what he is (basic law of identity), so then it naturally follows that the choice cannot be otherwise, since you advocate agent causation (agent causes the will to be thus and not otherwise). You have shot down your own ability to do otherwise by defending yourself with a compatibilistic freedom.

Furthermore, I simply pointed out your own view, which you have now reversed, you have dodged or ignored your earlier assertion of transcendent/ultimate nature.

Your position has this internal war between agent causation, ability to do otherwise, and transcendent. Your inability to follow my critique does not make it a straw man. You have only backed up the charge of arbitrariness to the agent. Now, if you never advocated the ability to do otherwise, then your position has been a compatibilistic view of human freedom and decision making.
 
Random implies A LACK OF CONTROL.

The agent is not OUT OF CONTROL, even if what he chooses has no prior reason.
A random number generator is in control of generating the number. It doesnt imply a lack of control. It implies something else could have happened under the exact conditions.
 
A random number generator is in control of generating the number. It doesnt imply a lack of control. It implies something else could have happened under the exact conditions.

Random number generators don't generate actual random numbers.
It's impossible.
They generate pseudo-random numbers.
Computers follow algorithms and programming.
 
Random number generators don't generate actual random numbers.
It's impossible.
They generate pseudo-random numbers.
Computers follow algorithms and programming.

Random: lacking a definite plan, purpose, or pattern

Yes, computers can easily be programmed to make that happen.
 
If the reasons do not determine the outcome, and it could have been different, then there has to be at least a random component to choices, or how could it have been different given the exact same circumstances?
That is not determinism

Make a free choice based on reason and determinism are contrary notions
 
And thusly, you have advocated compatibilism. In what you describe, there is no ability to do otherwise. The agent cannot be otherwise that what he is (basic law of identity), so then it naturally follows that the choice cannot be otherwise, since you advocate agent causation (agent causes the will to be thus and not otherwise). You have shot down your own ability to do otherwise by defending yourself with a compatibilistic freedom.

Furthermore, I simply pointed out your own view, which you have now reversed, you have dodged or ignored your earlier assertion of transcendent/ultimate nature.

Your position has this internal war between agent causation, ability to do otherwise, and transcendent. Your inability to follow my critique does not make it a straw man. You have only backed up the charge of arbitrariness to the agent. Now, if you never advocated the ability to do otherwise, then your position has been a compatibilistic view of human freedom and decision making.

Compatibilism is logical nonsense, it's asserting A and not A.

Can you be a compatibilist about truth? A statement can be both true and false.
Can you be a compatibilist about theism? God can both exist and not exist.
Can you be a compatibilist about Calvinism? Calvinism is both false and true simultaneously.

Once one has thrown out such basic adherence to logic, statements don't even have to follow any patterns and anything goes.

Your accusations of me reversing my position, dodging and ignoring, and being "unable" follow your critique, are just standard internet meme debate tricks to posture a superior position. None of that actually happened, and you did not even put the effort to even try to logically explain or defend it before just throwing it to the wall like spaghetti.

None of this is spiritual or intellectually honest dialogue, and by engaging in it, all I'm doing is allowing myself to be abused, so that seems pretty dumb.

Standard Cheesy Internet Debate Protocol is to accuse me of running scared because I know how wrong I am.

Have at it.
 
Compatibilism is logical nonsense, it's asserting A and not A.

Nope. That's not "compatibilism", it's contradiction.

Let me demonstrate the difference:

God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

This is compatibilism.
It is not "contradiction, as it is NOT in the forum of "A and not A".

God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart.

This is a contradiction.
But it is not what we believe.

Can you be a compatibilist about truth? A statement can be both true and false.
Can you be a compatibilist about theism? God can both exist and not exist.
Can you be a compatibilist about Calvinism? Calvinism is both false and true simultaneously.

You don't understand compatibilism.
 
And thusly, you have advocated compatibilism. In what you describe, there is no ability to do otherwise. The agent cannot be otherwise that what he is (basic law of identity), so then it naturally follows that the choice cannot be otherwise, since you advocate agent causation (agent causes the will to be thus and not otherwise). You have shot down your own ability to do otherwise by defending yourself with a compatibilistic freedom.

Furthermore, I simply pointed out your own view, which you have now reversed, you have dodged or ignored your earlier assertion of transcendent/ultimate nature.

Your position has this internal war between agent causation, ability to do otherwise, and transcendent. Your inability to follow my critique does not make it a straw man. You have only backed up the charge of arbitrariness to the agent. Now, if you never advocated the ability to do otherwise, then your position has been a compatibilistic view of human freedom and decision making.


made in the Image of God.... but also are imperfect (born into this world)........................


this is what we are.... this is what we are.... this is what we are.... this is what we are....


two natures.... not at peace.... unless and every time.... in each way .... we walk in Spirit


becoming at - one ( to whatever degree) -- with God/Spirit (though each of us is different)
 
If the reasons do not determine the outcome, and it could have been different, then there has to be at least a random component to choices

We are that we Are (I have said that you are gods - lowercase)


we can decide to do something now, 5 seconds from now....


wait all day.... decide a different path is in order after much


thinking and waiting. Awareness.... makes us alive.... moreso


than the Unaware.... that do not stop and think.... About life.... about


choices.... that do not notice each moment.... and what one is


Be - ing, deciding, not deciding, changing, growing, and Overcoming


in each moment.... of one's Life.... not walking 'asleep'.... anymore
 
Last edited:
We are that we Are (i have said that you are gods - lowercase)


we can decide to do something now, 5 seconds from now....


wait all day.... decide a different path is in order after much


thinking and waiting. Awareness.... makes us alive.... moreso


than the Unaware.... that do not stop and think.... About life.... about


choices.... that do not notice each moment.... and what one is


Be - ing, deciding, not deciding, changing, growing, and Overcoming


in each moment.... of one's life.... not walking 'asleep'.... anymore
Well all righty then...
 
Nope. That's not "compatibilism", it's contradiction.

Let me demonstrate the difference:

God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

This is compatibilism.
It is not "contradiction, as it is NOT in the forum of "A and not A".

God hardened Pharaoh's heart.
God didn't harden Pharaoh's heart.

This is a contradiction.
But it is not what we believe.

You don't understand compatibilism.

If Pharoah's choice was a predetermined desire ie free will to make it compatible then that is a false free will. If Pharoah's free will was libertarianly miraculously incidental to God's predetermination then that is compatible.
 
If the reasons do not determine the outcome, and it could have been different, then there has to be at least a random component to choices

Exactly! Consider this thought experiment:

Imagine someone is confronted with a choice, and right before they decide, God pauses the universe and God creates an exact duplicate copy of that same universe, both paused before the decision.

What happens when God presses play on both exact duplicate copies?

Determinism claims that both will result in the exact same decision because the decision is determined by an antecedent chain of reasoning…

…on the other hand…

LFW assumes that both could result in different decisions because the decision is not based on any preceding chain of reasoning.


This is why when you observe a LFW advocate argue for “choice” they always start at “the choice” and never consider the preceding circumstances, or things that lead up to, as a reason for “the choice”.

 
Compatibilism is logical nonsense, it's asserting A and not A.
Yep free and determined at the same time

making necessity consistent with free will which the bible denies

(ASV) but without thy mind I would do nothing; that thy goodness should not be as of necessity, but of free will.
 
Back
Top