Majority of scholars? Who, and where?

[SteveB]

It's a simple matter of whether I'm convinced that there is anything to know. So far I am not.

If you actually think that third party arguments are going to convince you, you've completely misunderstood the gospel of Jesus.
We who follow Jesus don't depend on these.
We depend on the power of God to make himself known to us.
Exactly as described in 1 Corinthians 2.

Just as you give me nothing with which to believe.

I give you the truth, as stated in YHVH's Word. As it's written that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing and the power of God to salvation to all who believe in Jesus, I'd say that you have chosen to be in the crowd of people who are perishing.

The question is...
Do you actually want to perish?
Or would you prefer to experience the salvation of God, as it is in truth, and righteousness?

Obviously you do otherwise you wouldn't have sought confirmation that YHVH was real.

this just tells me that you're afraid to learn the truth.
I never would have attended college if I didn't want to learn a new career. Had it not been for my cancer, and the subsequent damage caused by the surgery, I would have remained in my previous career as a sheet metal worker, and be retired by now.
Considering that, I'm thinking that you simply don't understand the nature of curiosity and desire to be more than I am.

Your claiming that Jesus (or at least what is claimed of him) is the truth doesn't make it so.

Never said it did.
Jesus said it, and after seeing the change in others, i decided to find out for myself.
i didn't live in fear of learning the truth.
granted, in my era, truth mattered more than being right in one's own estimation.

we'd previously tried right in one's own estimation and it got a lot of people killed by their own stupidity.

I am interested in knowing the truth.

Then do what Jesus says.
don't argue with strangers on the internet. Engage Jesus on his terms.
Because according to YHVH's Word, you got man-made religion, and missed Jesus altogether.
Otherwise, you'd have previously met him, and we'd be having a completely different conversation.

I've seen nothing related to Biblical claims that would indicate what you believe to be that.

Sounds like you're not reading.

 

[SteveB]

And none of those 40 different authors mention the trinity.

?
So you're going to try this again?
You clearly don't pay attention.
Gen 1:1-2 WEB 1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep and God’s Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Oops. There's 2 persons of the Trinity.

Pro 30:1-6 WEB 1 The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, the revelation: the man says to Ithiel, to Ithiel and Ucal: 2 “Surely I am the most ignorant man, and don’t have a man’s understanding. 3 I have not learned wisdom, neither do I have the knowledge of the Holy One. 4 Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know? 5 “Every word of God is flawless. He is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Don’t you add to his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.

darn! There's the third.


Dan 7:13 WEB “I saw in the night visions, and behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him near before him.

Oops! There's the first and third.

Isa 11:1-5 WEB 1 A shoot will come out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots will bear fruit. 2 Yahweh’s Spirit will rest on him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh. 3 His delight will be in the fear of Yahweh. He will not judge by the sight of his eyes, neither decide by the hearing of his ears; 4 but he will judge the poor with righteousness, and decide with equity for the humble of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips he will kill the wicked. 5 Righteousness will be the belt around his waist, and faithfulness the belt around his waist.

aggghhhhhh! There's the first and second and third!
Gee, that's 4 authors, over the course of 1000 years.

You're more than welcome to read for yourself.
i realize that your goal is simply to ignore what you don't want to know or understand. And that is indeed your prerogative. A stupid one, but yours.

as i said to Tiburon, being right in one's own estimation is not a smart thing.

It's best to humble yourself and learn to be right in YHVH's estimation. With Him is Truth.

Hmm... Maybe that supposedly "single coherent message from YHVH" is different to the one most Christians are promulgating?

That would explain why you're so terrified of learning the truth.

 

[The Pixie]

?
So you're going to try this again?

Sure. It is a fact that the concept of the trinity is absent from the Bible.

You clearly don't pay attention.
Gen 1:1-2 WEB 1 In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. 2 The earth was formless and empty. Darkness was on the surface of the deep and God’s Spirit was hovering over the surface of the waters.

Oops. There's 2 persons of the Trinity.

So not the actual concept of the trinity. I am not saying the Bible does not mention the three components of the trinity - obvoously it does. I am saying the doctrine of the trinity is absent from the Bible.

Pro 30:1-6 WEB 1 The words of Agur the son of Jakeh, the revelation: the man says to Ithiel, to Ithiel and Ucal: 2 “Surely I am the most ignorant man, and don’t have a man’s understanding. 3 I have not learned wisdom, neither do I have the knowledge of the Holy One. 4 Who has ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who has gathered the wind in his fists? Who has bound the waters in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son’s name, if you know? 5 “Every word of God is flawless. He is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6 Don’t you add to his words, lest he reprove you, and you be found a liar.

darn! There's the third.

Sure.

But not the doctrine of the trinity.

Dan 7:13 WEB “I saw in the night visions, and behold, there came with the clouds of the sky one like a son of man, and he came even to the Ancient of Days, and they brought him near before him.

Oops! There's the first and third.

Sure.

But not the doctrine of the trinity.

Isa 11:1-5 WEB 1 A shoot will come out of the stock of Jesse, and a branch out of his roots will bear fruit. 2 Yahweh’s Spirit will rest on him: the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Yahweh. 3 His delight will be in the fear of Yahweh. He will not judge by the sight of his eyes, neither decide by the hearing of his ears; 4 but he will judge the poor with righteousness, and decide with equity for the humble of the earth. He will strike the earth with the rod of his mouth; and with the breath of his lips he will kill the wicked. 5 Righteousness will be the belt around his waist, and faithfulness the belt around his waist.

aggghhhhhh! There's the first and second and third!

Sure.

But not the doctrine of the trinity.

Gee, that's 4 authors, over the course of 1000 years.

You're more than welcome to read for yourself.
i realize that your goal is simply to ignore what you don't want to know or understand. And that is indeed your prerogative. A stupid one, but yours.

But still nothing about the doctrine of the trinity.

as i said to Tiburon, being right in one's own estimation is not a smart thing.

And do you heed that yourself? I guess not.

It's best to humble yourself and learn to be right in YHVH's estimation. With Him is Truth.


That would explain why you're so terrified of learning the truth.

The truth is that the doctrine of the trinity is not Biblical. It was made up later.

 

[Furion]

Right, it is God performing poorly.

You've heard the gospel so it looks like you are performing poorly.

He wants everyone to become a Christian, but he has failed with the majority of the world's population.

Hard hearted atheists are not something we are told to worry about. We are given some guidelines perhaps.

Not everyone will hear and accept and be born again. Just because that's you is not indicative of a failure.

 

[The Pixie]

You've heard the gospel so it looks like you are performing poorly.

But it is God's objective that we become Christians, not mine.

In post #56 you said "Men don't do the converting in God's economy so it's more of a messenger type of job. We have a specific goal and purpose.", which again suggests it is God performing poorly.

 

[SteveB]

Sure. It is a fact that the concept of the trinity is absent from the Bible.


So not the actual concept of the trinity. I am not saying the Bible does not mention the three components of the trinity - obvoously it does. I am saying the doctrine of the trinity is absent from the Bible.


Sure.

But not the doctrine of the trinity.


Sure.

But not the doctrine of the trinity.


Sure.

But not the doctrine of the trinity.


But still nothing about the doctrine of the trinity.

Not the concept as you think it is.
But, this just tells me that it's not about the truth with you. It's all about your biases, and preconceptions.

And do you heed that yourself? I guess not.

Further demonstrating that it's about your biases and preconceptions.
I read daily.
I further get down on my knees and pray daily too. Specifically to ensure that I do in fact heed that.
It's exactly why YHVH tells us

Pro 3:5-8 WEB 5 Trust in Yahweh with all your heart, and don’t lean on your own understanding. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make your paths straight. 7 Don’t be wise in your own eyes. Fear Yahweh, and depart from evil. 8 It will be health to your body, and nourishment to your bones.

YHVH himself is the only one who has the accurate perspective on reality and truth. The rest of us are limited to what we can perceive with our 5 senses. YHVH opens up a whole new perspective that enables, and ensures we "get it!"

The truth is that the doctrine of the trinity is not Biblical. It was made up later.

Made up later?

No. Just recognized for WHO YHVH is, what the trinity is.

Since however you have clearly used the phrase erroneously, how about you describe what you think the trinity is.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

In post #56 you said "Men don't do the converting in God's economy so it's more of a messenger type of job. We have a specific goal and purpose.", which again suggests it is God performing poorly.

Do you also rush to erroneous snap judgments about the finality of football games at halftime?

On second thought considering what you guys call football over there, you've probably already dozed off by then.

 

[Furion]

But it is God's objective that we become Christians, not mine.

Not exactly. It is God's desire, but not everyone will.

The "objective" would be closer to 'all men come to the knowledge of the truth', which you have.

In post #56 you said "Men don't do the converting in God's economy so it's more of a messenger type of job. We have a specific goal and purpose.", which again suggests it is God performing poorly.

It performs exactly as planned.

You not being a part of it is also part of the plan since your sophistication appears too good for God.

 

[SteveB]

But it is God's objective that we become Christians, not mine.

Actually, His objective is stated in Romans 8:29.
Rom 8:29 WEB For whom he foreknew, he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.

That we be conformed to the likeness of Jesus.
Thankfully, he provides the resources, power and necessary help to achieve this. As stated in 2 Peter 1:2-4

2Pe 1:2-4 WEB 2 Grace to you and peace be multiplied in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 seeing that his divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and virtue, 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and exceedingly great promises; that through these you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world by lust.

The end goal of which we see described in 1 John 3.
1Jn 3:2 WEB Beloved, now we are children of God. It is not yet revealed what we will be; but we know that when he is revealed, we will be like him, for we will see him just as he is.

In post #56 you said "Men don't do the converting in God's economy so it's more of a messenger type of job. We have a specific goal and purpose.", which again suggests it is God performing poorly.

Just because you think he's "performing poorly" doesn't make it so. Furthermore, what you are showing is that you have lots and lots and lots and lots and lots of biases and preconceptions for which you have no basis.

We read in Acts

Act 2:47
praising God and having favor with all the people. The Lord added to the assembly day by day those who were being saved.

Act 5:14
More believers were added to the Lord, multitudes of both men and women.

Act 11:24
For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Spirit and of faith, and many people were added to the Lord.

In like manner, YHVH adds to the body of Christ those who are being saved today, and daily ever since the time those passages describe.

Jesus said that many are called, but few are chosen. So, he is indeed calling you, as evidenced by Jesus followers on this forum engaging you, presenting the gospel to you.

And you refusing to come to Jesus, as evidenced by comments you made above...

It's not your goal to become a follower of Jesus.

So, presently you're rejecting being chosen.

We don't want you to become a Christian, as you use the word.

We want you to be conformed to the likeness of Jesus, so that when he comes, you will be like Jesus and see him as he is.

 

[Caroljeen]

The Christian owner of this site disagrees with you. He thinks his TAG argument, brain fizz argument and the moral argument amongst others, proves God.

There's a lot of disagreement amongst Christians, meaning the message can't be clear.

Can you post the link to that article? I'm curious about brain fizz.

 

[Tiburon]

Why did you once believe? Why did you stop believing?

I was raised in the Church, my father was a pastor, so I guess I just believed it, I thought everyone believed and never had any doubt that it was the truth. Later I drifted away from the church I was no longer in that bubble. I met people who didn't have the same beliefs. In my later teens I reconnected with my church and started going to bible study and investigating what I had believed trying to regain that feeling of certitude and as in 1 Peter 3:15 Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But the more I looked the more I found reasons to doubt.

 

[Tiburon]

Life is difficult being an atheist apologist I imagine. It's not like you have any reason to be one.

Men don't do the converting in God's economy so it's more of a messenger type of job. We have a specific goal and purpose.

So even the criticism of how poorly I perform at it doesn't even register. I find most atheists don't understand so their criticisms are generally off the mark and therefore ineffectual.

The only place I'm an "atheist apologist", whatever that might mean, is on these boards.
I don't come across the staunchly religions in everyday life.
So your not concerned with how poorly you're delivering the message? You don't see that as the reason "most atheists don't understand"?

 

[Tiburon]

If you actually think that third party arguments are going to convince you, you've completely misunderstood the gospel of Jesus.
We who follow Jesus don't depend on these.
We depend on the power of God to make himself known to us.
Exactly as described in 1 Corinthians 2.

Third party? I thought the Bible was supposed to be the word of God.

I give you the truth, as stated in YHVH's Word. As it's written that the preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing and the power of God to salvation to all who believe in Jesus, I'd say that you have chosen to be in the crowd of people who are perishing.

The question is...
Do you actually want to perish?
Or would you prefer to experience the salvation of God, as it is in truth, and righteousness?

No, you give me your opinion. Your opinion that the Bible presents the truth. My opinion is that you are wrong.
I haven't chosen to be in the crowd who are perishing. I'm not convinced there is such a crowd.

this just tells me that you're afraid to learn the truth.
I never would have attended college if I didn't want to learn a new career. Had it not been for my cancer, and the subsequent damage caused by the surgery, I would have remained in my previous career as a sheet metal worker, and be retired by now.
Considering that, I'm thinking that you simply don't understand the nature of curiosity and desire to be more than I am.

If that's how you choose to rationalise away why people aren't convinced by what you are convinced by.

Never said it did.
Jesus said it, and after seeing the change in others, i decided to find out for myself.
i didn't live in fear of learning the truth.
granted, in my era, truth mattered more than being right in one's own estimation.

we'd previously tried right in one's own estimation and it got a lot of people killed by their own stupidity.

What you think is the truth, is just being right in your own estimation.
You didn't live in fear of learning the truth. As long as that truth is what you already believe.

Then do what Jesus says.
don't argue with strangers on the internet. Engage Jesus on his terms.
Because according to YHVH's Word, you got man-made religion, and missed Jesus altogether.
Otherwise, you'd have previously met him, and we'd be having a completely different conversation.

YHVH's Words are man-made religion.
I can't do what Jesus said. Jesus said to believe. I can't force myself to believe what I find unconvincing.

 

[The Pixie]

Not the concept as you think it is.

The doctrine of the Trinity means that there is one God who eternally exists as three distinct Persons — the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Stated differently, God is one in essence and three in person. These definitions express three crucial truths: (1) the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons, (2) each Person is fully God, (3) there is only one God.​

What Is the Doctrine of the Trinity?

What does the Bible teach about the Trinity? How is it not a contradiction for God to be both three and one?

www.desiringgod.org

​

The doctrine of the Trinity can be summarized in seven statements. (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father. ​

The Doctrine of the Trinity: No Christianity Without It

If any doctrine makes Christianity Christian, then surely it is the doctrine of the Trinity. The three great ecumenical creeds—the Apostles’ Creed, the Nicene Creed, and the Athanasian Creed—are all structured around our three in one God, underlying the essential importance of Trinitarian...

www.thegospelcoalition.org

​

The doctrine of the Trinity, simply stated, is as follows: The Bible teaches that there is one eternal God who is the Creator and Sustainer of the universe. He is the only God that exists. However, within the nature of this one God are three persons, or three centers of consciousness - the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three Persons are co-equal and co-eternal. They are also distinguishable or distinct from one another. These three distinct Persons are the one God. Everything that is true about God is true about the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.​

What Is the Doctrine of the Trinity?

One of the most important doctrines of the Christian faith is that of the Trinity. From Scripture we learn that God, by nature is a Triune Being or Trinity.

www.blueletterbible.org

What do you think it is?

Can you point me to verses in the Bible that indicate this concept of the trinity, rather than just saying the three components exist?

But, this just tells me that it's not about the truth with you. It's all about your biases, and preconceptions.

Then I look forward to you enlightening me.

Further demonstrating that it's about your biases and preconceptions.
I read daily.
I further get down on my knees and pray daily too. Specifically to ensure that I do in fact heed that.
It's exactly why YHVH tells us

Good for you. You will be in a great position to address this issue, right?

Made up later?

No. Just recognized for WHO YHVH is, what the trinity is.

So go find the verses that indicate the doctrine of the trinity, and not just the existence of the three components.

Since however you have clearly used the phrase erroneously, how about you describe what you think the trinity is.

See above.

Now your turn. Describe what you think the trinity is.

 

[The Pixie]

Not exactly. It is God's desire, but not everyone will.

The "objective" would be closer to 'all men come to the knowledge of the truth', which you have.

It is his desire, but not his objective? My you do have to split hair finely when you are a Christian.

So God has failed with his desire to get us all to be Christians.

You not being a part of it is also part of the plan since your sophistication appears too good for God.

Too good for God. Hmm, I will take that. This is the guy who tells us chattel slavery is allowed after all.

 

[Whatsisface]

Can you post the link to that article? I'm curious about brain fizz.

Sorry, this is the best I can find so far. At about 1:30:15 Matt Slick goes into it somewhat, I think he's done so before in this debate. It seems essentially the same as CS Lewis argument, being ...

Lewis argued that if Naturalism were true (i.e., if Nature is all there is), then all of our thoughts (indeed reason itself) are merely the product of the accidental forces of matter-in-motion.

 

[stiggy wiggy]

So God has failed with his desire to get us all to be Christians.

WRONG! (as is so often the case with you) To quote Leonard Cohen:

You can add up the parts
But you won't have the sum
You can strike up the march
There is no drum
Every heart, every heart
To love will come
But like a refugee

 

[Furion]

The only place I'm an "atheist apologist", whatever that might mean, is on these boards.
I don't come across the staunchly religions in everyday life.

EDITED RULE 12 REMARK

That would be the meaning behind atheist apologist for the most part. You get online and argue against all things God, like you admitted.

It's just that your proselytizing has perhaps blinded you into thinking yours is some kind of noble crusade or something and not the ordinary religious proselytizing that it is.

 

[Furion]

It is his desire, but not his objective?

Depends on what you mean by "objective"

My you do have to split hair finely when you are a Christian.

So God has failed with his desire to get us all to be Christians.

Fail at desire?

That makes no sense.

Too good for God. Hmm, I will take that.

Just remember, when you "take that" you'll be taking all that comes with that.

Such is the case with vainglory.

 

[The Pixie]

Depends on what you mean by "objective"

Right, the other great game for Christians, just change the meaning of words as you see fit.

Fail at desire?

He desired it, but failed to achieve it.

Not rocket science.

That makes no sense.

You said my "sophistication appears too good for God." Thanks for the compliment!

Just remember, when you "take that" you'll be taking all that comes with that.

What comes with the compliment, exactly?