Marian Prayers--Catholics try to tell us that prayers to Mary are asking her to intercede for us

romishpopishorganist said:
Right: Catholics just blindly believe whatever they are told by the RCC, but Protestants think for themselves. Protestants do not just accept whatever Pastor Bob, Elder Sue, Reverend Joe, Brother this or sister that tells them without critical thought. No, they go by the Bible. :rolleyes:
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One good lesson I learnt from growing up an RCC and that is do not follow men Be careful check up what they are teaching and their actions. Test the spirits. Never follow man, men lie.
 
A new day said:
In the first place, the Apostles would NOT of taught ANYONE to ask dead people to intercede for those still alive. Let alone even suggest it.
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Right. That's what I said.
When cornelius tried that CROCK, peter rebuked him for doing so. In Acts 14, paul and barnabas, also rebuked people for attempting to worship them. In revelation, john was rebuked by an angel for thinking along the same lines.

Prayer is a form of worship. Asking a dead person to intercede for you in any way is worshipping the dead.
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Asking someone holy and righteous to intercede for us is perfectly biblical though.

God is fully capable of hearing our prayers, and fully capable of meeting our needs according to His will. In Scripture ALL prayers were directed TO God. At no time, did any of the OT prophets ever teach, or preach praying to the dead.
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Jesus opened up a new relationship with God to us. Something that was at the time hidden to the Jews. Christianity believes in a new age and a new relationship.

In the example Jesus gave about the rich man and lazarus, the rich man wanted to send lazarus to the rich man's brothers. And the request was DENIED. The rich man was told that his brother's had the Scriptures available to them. lazarus was NOT able to intercede for the rich man nor the rich man's brothers.
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That isn't an example of asking the saints in heaven for their intercession. That's a whole different kettle of fish. Some sort of occult intervention?

Asking another person who is still alive on earth to "agree" with you in prayer is acceptable. Praying TO a dead person, asking them to intercede on your behalf is NOT
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You keep insisting that intercession is something other than intercession.
 
Bob Carabbio said:
The Roman Catholic "Mary Thing" doesn't even exist, and the entire concept taught my "Marianists" is total BLASPHEMY!!!

HOW DARE YOU think that Jesus our Saviour needs any input from a normal physically dead sinful Human in order to do the right thing by us??

HOW DARE you mischaracterize the REAL Biblical Mary, Jesus' mother into the blasphemous usurping MONSTER that the Roman Catholic "Church" has made her into???
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Our Savior doesn’t “need” anything. That He works through people is patently obvious. That ‘normal physically dead’ people are part of the Church should also be obvious. Death doesn’t remove us from the Church, nor is it a release of the commandment to love our neighbor.
 
Kirby said:
Our Savior doesn’t “need” anything. That He works through people is patently obvious. That ‘normal physically dead’ people are part of the Church should also be obvious. Death doesn’t remove us from the Church, nor is it a release of the commandment to love our neighbor.
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if they're in heaven then they weren't part of the rcc when they died.
 
Stella1000 said:
Right. That's what I said.

Asking someone holy and righteous to intercede for us is perfectly biblical though.
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yes, which is why I would never pray to a dead person to do that or ask someone living to do so, unless I knew they were born again.
otherwise it would be unbiblical.

Stella1000 said:
Jesus opened up a new relationship with God to us. Something that was at the time hidden to the Jews. Christianity believes in a new age and a new relationship.

That isn't an example of asking the saints in heaven for their intercession. That's a whole different kettle of fish. Some sort of occult intervention?

You keep insisting that intercession is something other than intercession.
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yes, He did - but it only comes thru the rebirth.
 
Stella1000 said:
So it isn't reasonable to expect that they would be writing about how they should be regarded beyond their earthly life from their own writings.
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A new day said:
In the first place, the Apostles would NOT of taught ANYONE to ask dead people to intercede for those still alive. Let alone even suggest it.
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A new day said:
The two sentences do not match
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I responded to someone who said that if intercession through the saints in heaven was a thing, it would have been written in the bible. I responded that no that isn't reasonable to expect that the first Saints ie the Scripture writers, would have forseen such a thing while they were alive. That followed from their deaths, the new relationship with God and the closeness of the Kingdom of heaven and the unfolding Christian life.
 
Stella1000 said:
I responded to someone who said that if intercession through the saints in heaven was a thing, it would have been written in the bible. I responded that no that isn't reasonable to expect that the first Saints ie the Scripture writers, would have forseen such a thing while they were alive. That followed from their deaths, the new relationship with God and the closeness of the Kingdom of heaven and the unfolding Christian life.
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so you think those in the NT didn't know about saints? read scripture. the OT mentions them 95 times and the NT 61 times. maybe look 'em up. those you call 'the first Saints' knew that believers were saints.

nowhere does the NT teach that they became 'saints' because Peter proclaimed that they were.
 
Stella1000 said:
I responded to someone who said that if intercession through the saints in heaven was a thing, it would have been written in the bible. I responded that no that isn't reasonable to expect that the first Saints ie the Scripture writers, would have forseen such a thing while they were alive. That followed from their deaths, the new relationship with God and the closeness of the Kingdom of heaven and the unfolding Christian life.
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Again that is you assuming such a thing. If the saints could not forsee it then, how does your institution forsee it now?
 
Kirby said:
Our Savior doesn’t “need” anything.
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O.K. then dump your phony "Mary thing", and your requirement to pray to her.
Kirby said:
That He works through people is patently obvious. That ‘normal physically dead’ people are part of the Church should also be obvious.
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But nothing in scripture indicated that we should engage in necormancy.
Kirby said:
Death doesn’t remove us from the Church, nor is it a release of the commandment to love our neighbor.
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Never said it was. What's THAT got to do with using Mary to get your way with Jesus.
 
dingoling. said:
God prepared Israel to bring his son into the world. It makes very good sense that he would prepare the woman who would be the mother of his son.
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Good "HUMAN SENSE". WE both know that Roman Catholicism will claim all KINDS of foolishess to defend their "Blessed virgin thing".
dingoling. said:
Among other things, Mary is the mother of God,
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Nope - the REAL Mary is Jesus' mom. God doesn't HAVE a "Mother"
dingoling. said:
she is the new Eve, and she is the ark of the new covenant. Not just your typical woman.
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Except that the REAL Mary, Jesus' Mom was a normal, and obedient Jewish gal, whom God used for a difficult ministry, that she obviously didn't fully understand. Roman Catholicism has made a usurping monster out of her.
 
Stella1000 said:
Jesus opened up a new relationship with God to us. Something that was at the time hidden to the Jews. Christianity believes in a new age and a new relationship.
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The OT vehemently condemns communicating with the dead, whether that be going through a divinator or praying to the dead yourself. The Jewish people knew better, they weren't ignorant of this. Jesus did NOT change what was condemned in Scripture.

Asking another person who is still alive on this earth to pray with you and for you is one thing, but asking a person who is no longer alive on this earth is NOT ok

Stella1000 said:
That isn't an example of asking the saints in heaven for their intercession. That's a whole different kettle of fish. Some sort of occult intervention?
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Luke 16:17 - 31
He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”

In the above passages, the rich man who was no longer alive on earth. Was NOT able to intercede for his family who were still alive on earth. He was told that his family had Scripture to listen to and heed from. And neither was lazarus who also was no longer alive on earth able to do any sort of interceding, nor did he.

God set boundaries between those still living on earth and those who are no longer alive on earth. God set boundaries between humans and the spirit world. Jesus reinforced this in the above passages.

“Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.
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What moses and the prophets had written down was sacred scripture. And this is what Jesus is alluding to, when He said "they have moses and the prophets. There is absolutely nothing in the OT or the NT that gives anyone permission to pray TO the dead. Neither is there permission to pray to spirits.

All that is written in Scripture, is all that God wanted us to know.
 
Stella1000 said:
I responded to someone who said that if intercession through the saints in heaven was a thing, it would have been written in the bible. I responded that no that isn't reasonable to expect that the first Saints ie the Scripture writers, would have forseen such a thing while they were alive. That followed from their deaths, the new relationship with God and the closeness of the Kingdom of heaven and the unfolding Christian life.
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You addressed the following quoted post to me a couple of pages back,

Stella1000 said:
I'm not sure why it doesn't make sense. How would it be possible for the very first apostles and disciples writing scripture, to teach others to ask their intercession when they finally die? They don't know how they'll be regarded after death. They didn't even know their writings would become the bible when they were writing. So it isn't reasonable to expect that they would be writing about how they should be regarded beyond their earthly life from their own writings.
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post #44 followed up on the above post.

post #62 replied to post 44.

and in post #68 your telling me you can't keep up with the conversation between you and me even though you quote my posts.
 
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RiJoRi said:
I see both cases as desperate attempts at validation by the RCC. "We were there at the beginning! Honest!"

BTW, if the RCC wrote the New Testament, (a) why weren't their distinctive doctrines clearly spelled out? and (b) why does the RCC work so danged hard to ignore or deny what the Scriptures do say?

--Rich
"Esse quam videri"
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This is a question that we have been asking rc's for a long time now. It is also one of the questions that are never answered. Go figure.
 
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