Nightbirde understands the purpose of suffering more than any of us "Why does God allow childhood cancer" bloviators ever will

stiggy wiggy

stiggy wiggy

Well-known member
She got the golden buzzer on AGT:


She died a few months later.

Here is an excerpt from her blog:

I haven’t come as far as I’d like, in understanding the things that have happened this year. But here’s one thing I do know: when it comes to pain, God isn’t often in the business of taking it away. Instead, he adds to it. He is more of a giver than a taker. He doesn’t take away my darkness, he adds light. He doesn’t spare me of thirst, he brings water. He doesn’t cure my loneliness, he comes near. So why do we believe that when we are in pain, it must mean God is far?

In the beginning, there was immense, immeasurable emptiness. But God was drawn to it like a fog to the sea. He stretched out His spirit over the void, and He stayed. If the stories I’ve heard of Him are true, surely He is nearest of all, to me. To us. You see, the Creator is still here, where He has always been, hovering over the emptiness.

I am still reeling, drenched in sorrow. I am still begging, bargaining, demanding, disappearing. And I guess that means I have all the more reason to say thank you, because God is drawing near to me.
 
I'm a self-professing Christian, and yet I find this answer extremely shallow and dissatisfying.

It is a form of the "soul-building" theodicy which attempts to explain the presence of evil as a means to enhance our character and appreciate the good better.

The thing is, even someone in her case really does not understand the depth of how bad it can be for very many other people. Children sold into sexually slavery abused over and over that never know a kind touch or the light of day. People that live rejected, abused lives, literally tortured for years, tormented by horrible diseases, oppressed by depression and unknown forces of emotional anguish; the worst for many of us is just not the worst out there. They don't get to sing or hear the song "It's okaaay, it's okaaay, just run the yellow lights," and get a big hug and a golden buzzer.

See, the soul-building theodicy fails for me because it does not encompass or recompense all human situations to my satisfaction. And so bad is the disparity and injustice in the world, that nothing would satisfy my innate sense of justice. Under my normal emotional sensibilities, God seems like a monster, God is a jerk, God is unloving, unjust, and can in no way be conceived of as good for all the horrible things he has allowed. Please note moderators, I am not saying this is the case or that I agree with this—this is what my sinful heart feels towards God.

And that's the neglected element. Sin. Everything's all feel good and centered around helping me cope, and helping me feel better about things, and making me be a better person, and satisfying my understanding and feelings. But the real heart and meaning of evil, the real fundamental nature of sin, is robbing God of his worth and value, and making God stand in line with everyone and everything else so that he has to answer to us and our judgment, as if we were on the throne of the universe. Human suffering becomes the idol that all must bow down to, and somehow "fix," creation has replaced Creator in the fundamental order of things, what makes God happy is no longer even close to as important as what makes us happy.

Rebellion and sin are the cause of all sufferings. And the reason is, because God so deemed his own worth to be greater than ours, that his worth must be expressed in that rebellion and sin.

Jesus did not come to make us feel better about God.

Jesus came to tell us we are evil.

If I am evil, the value systems of the entire universe suddenly all move around upside down, topsy-turvy. I don't get to call the shots, I don't get to say what's right and wrong, I don't get to be the one that the universe and God has to justify themselves before because all things were created for my existence and to make me feel better about what I feel and observe. I am no longer on the throne, the center, I am no longer god.

In all the Bible we really only get two short theodicies. The first is the lesson of Job, which ends with "Who are you to question God?" and Job admitting he sees he is vile. The second is Jesus' parable of the weeds and tares, and he simply says "An enemy has done this."

It's not "okay, okayyyy, okaaaay." We are sinners before a holy God and he has every right to create a system where we are born under original sin and worthy to be damned under his wrath day and night with no rest or peace for the wicked. It's not okay to "run the yellow lights" because everything that's gray is really black, and we live in a hazy and dazed world of compromised morals where little sins just aren't important and don't matter anymore, the little instances of pride, dishonesty, resentment, disrespect, lust, anger, unbelief, lack of love. "Hey, we are all humans, just try to be a nice guy!" we tell ourselves. But God is not going to give us the golden buzzer.

Jesus said, "Unless you repent you will die in your sins." Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life." Jesus made God the center of the stage, what creation is all about, unashamedly, unabashedly, self-centered, egotistic, and narcissistic to a creation that doesn't want God to have his worth, and take his place in line with the rest of us.

Was Jesus self-sacrificial, yes, but he set up the entire system where he would need to sacrifice anyway, and the whole reason is all and only because he is holy and we are unholy.

Don't be deceived.

It's not okay, and every yellow light will be recorded and displayed for all eternity if you do not trust in Christ to suffer for your crimes against God.

The reason suffering exists, is because God is more valuable than we are.

He gives us the right and the power to rebel against him. But that's all offense and rejection of God really is underneath: rebellion.

I say, as a Christian, we need to not whitewash the problem of evil and make it out to be a plot arc in a movie where we are the hero in the end, and it all is just to teach us a lesson.

Christ said "Flee the wrath to come, fear what God can do to you more than the worst that man could, narrow is the way and difficult is the path, and few find it."

Count yourself lucky if you see the value of Christ and have embraced him as the ultimate good and the reason for all existence.

Otherwise he does say you are just cosmic trash, whether you like it or not.

And he's going to throw you out one day.
 
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Dizerner said:
Rebellion and sin are the cause of all sufferings.
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Is that what you would have told Jane? I wonder which one of Job's "comforters" is your favorite biblical character?

Pardon me if I tell you that Jane's words are an inspiration to me, while yours land like a wet mackerel on a fishing dock. Glad you weren't around to "comfort" my wife while she underwent her losing fight with cancer.

Here you'll hear a little prose poem Jane wrote:

 
Dizerner said:
I'm a self-professing Christian, and yet I find this answer extremely shallow and dissatisfying.

It is a form of the "soul-building" theodicy which attempts to explain the presence of evil as a means to enhance our character and appreciate the good better.

The thing is, even someone in her case really does not understand the depth of how bad it can be for very many other people. Children sold into sexually slavery abused over and over that never know a kind touch or the light of day. People that live rejected, abused lives, literally tortured for years, tormented by horrible diseases, oppressed by depression and unknown forces of emotional anguish; the worst for many of us is just not the worst out there. They don't get to sing or hear the song "It's okaaay, it's okaaay, just run the yellow lights," and get a big hug and a golden buzzer.

See, the soul-building theodicy fails for me because it does not encompass or recompense all human situations to my satisfaction. And so bad is the disparity and injustice in the world, that nothing would satisfy my innate sense of justice. Under my normal emotional sensibilities, God seems like a monster, God is a jerk, God is unloving, unjust, and can in no way be conceived of as good for all the horrible things he has allowed. Please note moderators, I am not saying this is the case or that I agree with this—this is what my sinful heart feels towards God.

And that's the neglected element. Sin. Everything's all feel good and centered around helping me cope, and helping me feel better about things, and making me be a better person, and satisfying my understanding and feelings. But the real heart and meaning of evil, the real fundamental nature of sin, is robbing God of his worth and value, and making God stand in line with everyone and everything else so that he has to answer to us and our judgment, as if we were on the throne of the universe. Human suffering becomes the idol that all must bow down to, and somehow "fix," creation has replaced Creator in the fundamental order of things, what makes God happy is no longer even close to as important as what makes us happy.

Rebellion and sin are the cause of all sufferings. And the reason is, because God so deemed his own worth to be greater than ours, that his worth must be expressed in that rebellion and sin.

Jesus did not come to make us feel better about God.

Jesus came to tell us we are evil.

If I am evil, the value systems of the entire universe suddenly all move around upside down, topsy-turvy. I don't get to call the shots, I don't get to say what's right and wrong, I don't get to be the one that the universe and God has to justify themselves before because all things were created for my existence and to make me feel better about what I feel and observe. I am no longer on the throne, the center, I am no longer god.

In all the Bible we really only get two short theodicies. The first is the lesson of Job, which ends with "Who are you to question God?" and Job admitting he sees he is vile. The second is Jesus' parable of the weeds and tares, and he simply says "An enemy has done this."

It's not "okay, okayyyy, okaaaay." We are sinners before a holy God and he has every right to create a system where we are born under original sin and worthy to be damned under his wrath day and night with no rest or peace for the wicked. It's not okay to "run the yellow lights" because everything that's gray is really black, and we live in a hazy and dazed world of compromised morals where little sins just aren't important and don't matter anymore, the little instances of pride, dishonesty, resentment, disrespect, lust, anger, unbelief, lack of love. "Hey, we are all humans, just try to be a nice guy!" we tell ourselves. But God is not going to give us the golden buzzer.

Jesus said, "Unless you repent you will die in your sins." Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth and the life." Jesus made God the center of the stage, what creation is all about, unashamedly, unabashedly, self-centered, egotistic, and narcissistic to a creation that doesn't want God to have his worth, and take his place in line with the rest of us.

Was Jesus self-sacrificial, yes, but he set up the entire system where he would need to sacrifice anyway, and the whole reason is all and only because he is holy and we are unholy.

Don't be deceived.

It's not okay, and every yellow light will be recorded and displayed for all eternity if you do not trust in Christ to suffer for your crimes against God.

The reason suffering exists, is because God is more valuable than we are.

He gives us the right and the power to rebel against him. But that's all offense and rejection of God really is underneath: rebellion.

I say, as a Christian, we need to not whitewash the problem of evil and make it out to be a plot arc in a movie where we are the hero in the end, and it all is just to teach us a lesson.

Christ said "Flee the wrath to come, fear what God can do to you more than the worst that man could, narrow is the way and difficult is the path, and few find it."

Count yourself lucky if you see the value of Christ and have embraced him as the ultimate good and the reason for all existence.

Otherwise he does say you are just cosmic trash, whether you like it or not.

And he's going to throw you out one day.
Click to expand...
Personally, I find your response confusing.

For example, you criticize the OP for implying that suffering

“attempts to explain the presence of evil as a means to enhance our character and appreciate the good better.”

But then you turn right around and say,

“We are sinners before a holy God and he has every right to create a system where we are born under original sin and worthy to be damned under his wrath day and night with no rest or peace for the wicked.”

Apparently, according to you, we are not allowed to find any good in suffering or question why we suffer because we deserve it. That is dark, very dark, IMO. I think I would rather have tea with the lady in the OP who finds something good in her suffering rather than be told how evil I am.
 
stiggy wiggy said:
She got the golden buzzer on AGT:


She died a few months later.

Here is an excerpt from her blog:

I haven’t come as far as I’d like, in understanding the things that have happened this year. But here’s one thing I do know: when it comes to pain, God isn’t often in the business of taking it away. Instead, he adds to it. He is more of a giver than a taker. He doesn’t take away my darkness, he adds light. He doesn’t spare me of thirst, he brings water. He doesn’t cure my loneliness, he comes near. So why do we believe that when we are in pain, it must mean God is far?

In the beginning, there was immense, immeasurable emptiness. But God was drawn to it like a fog to the sea. He stretched out His spirit over the void, and He stayed. If the stories I’ve heard of Him are true, surely He is nearest of all, to me. To us. You see, the Creator is still here, where He has always been, hovering over the emptiness.

I am still reeling, drenched in sorrow. I am still begging, bargaining, demanding, disappearing. And I guess that means I have all the more reason to say thank you, because God is drawing near to me.
Click to expand...
She doesn't explain the purpose of suffering. She just expressing her feeling that the idea of God helps her while she continues to suffer.
 
TeabagSalad said:
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Click to expand...

No. She has no "version of God." She has EXPERIENCED God in HER weakness, not God's. Your idea that the Creator and Sustainer of the entire universe is weak, is just too idiotic to even attempt a refutation. You yourself are too weak to even create a snail, much less the entire cosmos.
 
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TeabagSalad said:
So, basically your version of God is too weak to do anything about people's suffering.
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If one pays close attention to what she says, she seems to be referring to the inner Holy Spirit or “spirit of Jesus” as creator hovering over the waters or walking on the waters, respectively. The waters representing the “pain”, “darkness”, “thirst”, and “loneliness” she is passing through.

I don’t speak for her but she seems to concede that this material world she finds herself in is the “emptiness“ and the Holy Spirit comforts her and presumably assures her of a better place he intends to take her. What could be more Christian than that? The inner God saving us from suffering and death in the material world for the perfect world to come.
 
docphin5 said:
If one pays close attention to what she says, she seems to be referring to the inner Holy Spirit or “spirit of Jesus” as creator hovering over the waters or walking on the waters, respectively. The waters representing the “pain”, “darkness”, “thirst”, and “loneliness” she is passing through.

I don’t speak for her but she seems to concede that this material world she finds herself in is the “emptiness“ and the Holy Spirit comforts her and presumably assures her of a better place he intends to take her. What could be more Christian than that? The inner God saving us from suffering and death in the material world for the perfect world to come.
Click to expand...

Ah, I see. In that case do you think God fails to alleviate suffering because he just can't be bothered? Which makes God pretty evil, if he could stop suffering but doesn't bother.
 
stiggy wiggy said:
She got the golden buzzer on AGT:


She died a few months later.

Here is an excerpt from her blog:

I haven’t come as far as I’d like, in understanding the things that have happened this year. But here’s one thing I do know: when it comes to pain, God isn’t often in the business of taking it away. Instead, he adds to it. He is more of a giver than a taker. He doesn’t take away my darkness, he adds light. He doesn’t spare me of thirst, he brings water. He doesn’t cure my loneliness, he comes near. So why do we believe that when we are in pain, it must mean God is far?

In the beginning, there was immense, immeasurable emptiness. But God was drawn to it like a fog to the sea. He stretched out His spirit over the void, and He stayed. If the stories I’ve heard of Him are true, surely He is nearest of all, to me. To us. You see, the Creator is still here, where He has always been, hovering over the emptiness.

I am still reeling, drenched in sorrow. I am still begging, bargaining, demanding, disappearing. And I guess that means I have all the more reason to say thank you, because God is drawing near to me.
Click to expand...

Hmm, well I understand her anyway.

Perhaps people who've endured little have a hard time grasping. And perhaps materialists need their soul ripped apart before they manage to wake up. Some will always receive the bitter end for themselves, it's sad to see.
 
TeabagSalad said:
Ah, I see. In that case do you think God fails to alleviate suffering because he just can't be bothered? Which makes God pretty evil, if he could stop suffering but doesn't bother.
Click to expand...
The solution to suffering is much bigger than one person. In case you haven’t noticed we all suffer and die at some point. Therefore, Preventing or curing suffering in one human is not going to fix the imperfect material world formed 13,7 billion years ago by something we don’t fully understand but theology has some ideas, eg., a fallen angel. It is now God’s task to restrain the forces of chaos enough to comfort and save souls from this world for a new one. Your point of view comes from a culture of instant gratification. I want it now! Now, I said! Give it to me or I am going to throw a tantrum! It is why christians are exhorted to be patient.
 
docphin5 said:
The solution to suffering is much bigger than one person. In case you haven’t noticed we all suffer and die at some point. Therefore, Preventing or curing suffering in one human is not going to fix the imperfect material world formed 13,7 billion years ago by something we don’t fully understand but theology has some ideas, eg., a fallen angel. It is now God’s task to restrain the forces of chaos enough to comfort and save souls from this world for a new one. Your point of view comes from a culture of instant gratification. I want it now! Now, I said! Give it to me or I am going to throw a tantrum! It is why christians are exhorted to be patient.
Click to expand...

Interesting, I think you are onto something with the culture.
 
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