Right. Just believe the Bible is true, and - wonder of wonders - you will realise the Bible is true.
Round and round we go.
Question for Atheists
- Thread starter Torin
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Round and round we go.
And of course even if you followed Jesus, and came to believe that the Bible was true, and even if the Bible is true, @SteveB 's claim -- that the truth of the Bible can be proved by the Dead Sea Scrolls -- would not follow,
stiggy wiggy
Well-known member
It is indeed a wonder of wonder how faith grows internally, not externally. Like Caiaphas in John 11:50 you have unwittingly stumbled onto a true statement, although his was not uttered with stupid sarcasm.
SteveB
Well-known member
Actually, I'm thinking that by doing what Jesus said, you're applying the scientific method for learning.
As he said, and as the new testament writers stated.
Mat 7:24-27 WEB 24 “Everyone therefore who hears these words of mine and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on a rock. 25 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it didn’t fall, for it was founded on the rock. 26 Everyone who hears these words of mine and doesn’t do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 The rain came down, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell—and its fall was great.”
Jas 1:20-25 WEB 20 for the anger of man doesn’t produce the righteousness of God. 21 Therefore, putting away all filthiness and overflowing of wickedness, receive with humility the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. 22 But be doers of the word, and not only hearers, deluding your own selves. 23 For if anyone is a hearer of the word and not a doer, he is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror; 24 for he sees himself, and goes away, and immediately forgets what kind of man he was. 25 But he who looks into the perfect law of freedom and continues, not being a hearer who forgets but a doer of the work, this man will be blessed in what he does.
Act 17:11 WEB Now these were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.
1Th 5:21-22 WEB 21 Test all things, and hold firmly that which is good. 22 Abstain from every form of evil.
But, apparently you're too intelligent to be capable of grasping so primal a concept.
You're more than welcome to step off the merry-go-round anytime you choose.
Substantiation is obtained by obedience to gospel of Jesus.
You're the one who's chosen to remain in a state of circularity.
I'm the guy standing on the ground, in the same place I was 11 years ago, stating the same facts now, as back then.
SteveB
Well-known member
Substantiation is obtained by obedience to gospel of Jesus.
And I'm thinking you do not know what the "scientific method for learning" is.
Can you state what the concept actually is in your own words, Steve?
I did. You are the one going round and round. I am stood at the side, pointing it out.
Substantiation of the Bible being true is obtained by believing the Bible is true.
Once more round the merry-go-round you go.
You re the one saying I only have to believe the Bible is true in order to see that the Bible is true.
And yet you just told me to believe the Bible is true so I will see the Bible is true. You are the one going in circles Steve. apparently you lack the wit to realise that.
SteveB
Well-known member
Ok. Let's find out.
1- at what point am I required to begin the process of determining an hypothesis?
Eg., when does Evolution start the scientific method for determining the process?
Yesterday? Today? Last year? 50 years ago? 1000 years ago? 50 trillion years ago?
It's my understanding that we develop the hypothesis with our present observations.
In evolution, are you required to start with present observations, or are you required to begin with unobserved opinions about the origins?
So.... with regards to the Bible.... what are my presently observations?
If I start with Genesis 1, it makes a statement I'm not able to observe. So I can either argue about it or take it at face value and move on to what I can observe.... as I work through the Bible I see numerous things that I am called to do.
A series of actions to do and not do. Activities to get involved in, personally.
And as I see those things, I notice that by doing them, I am told that God will dwell with me, show himself to me, and even be my Father, and friend.
With regards to evolution.... what am I allowed to do that would corroborate my observations? Nothing really... i can't recreate changes, adaptations, etc... i can only observe and document.
Read above.
Yet you plainly stated- round and round we go.
So, i disagree.
sounds like you're afraid to learn.
what do you think is going to happen when you do what Jesus says?
do you think that you'll cease being alive?
Seriously... explain why you're so afraid to learn!
Are you frightened that you'll become a zombified religionist? That you'll no longer be able to think clearly?
Nope. Been standing on the earth for decades.
Psa 40:2 WEB He brought me up also out of a horrible pit, out of the miry clay. He set my feet on a rock, and gave me a firm place to stand.
Eph 4:14 WEB that we may no longer be children, tossed back and forth and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in craftiness, after the wiles of error;
It's a curious thing. You think you're in a good place. But in reality, you're being tossed around on the waves of the seas. You have no anchor, or stability beyond that which you assign yourself.
Nope. Jesus said that we're to obey his teachings if we want to know the truth.
So, I again ask you...
What are you so afraid of?
Actually, i quoted several passages which clearly stated that you need to do what Jesus says in order to actually know the truth.
Psa 40:2 WEB He brought me up also out of a horrible pit, out of the miry clay. He set my feet on a rock, and gave me a firm place to stand.
Nope. As it's written, he's set me on a firm place.
You claimed that the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the Bible is true. I disputed that claim, and only that claim. So when you reply that "substantiation is obtained by obedience to the gospel of Jesus," the obvious implication is "substantiation of my claim that the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the Bible is true is obtained by obedience to the gospel of Jesus."
But if that is what you are saying, then you are saying that everybody who is obedient to the gospel of Jesus can see that the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the Bible is true.
And if that is true, how many people have ever been obedient to the gospel of Jesus? Pretty darned few, because not many Christians alive today believe that the Dead Sea Scrolls prove that the Bible is true, and obviously zero Christians before the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls could have believed it.
SteveB
Well-known member
gee! I'm disputing that it's night-time outside.
so?
Read them for yourself.
read the dead sea scroll website in Israel, for yourself.
Why, does that frighten you?
Do you think you'll be turned into a zombie?
Actually, they'll gain the wherewithal to successfully demonstrate that the Bible is true, that the Scrolls validate the Bible.
Those who have.
You apparently missed the memo.
Mat 7:13-14 WEB 13 “Enter in by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in by it. 14 How narrow is the gate and the way is restricted that leads to life! There are few who find it.
Luk 13:23-24 WEB 23 One said to him, “Lord, are they few who are saved?” He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter in by the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will seek to enter in and will not be able.
I demonstrate that, according to Steve's own logic, there were no genuine Jesus-followers until the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered. (If, as Steve has it, all who follow Jesus can see that the Scrolls prove the Bible, then anybody who doesn't see that the Scrolls prove the Bible can't be a follower of Jesus; and nobody who died before the Scrolls were discovered could possible see that. Therefore...)
The response of a person acting in good faith would be something like "let me clarify, then; I wasn't literally claiming that 'the Scrolls prove the Bible' let alone that every genuine follower of Jesus knew that the Scrolls prove the Bible; rather, what I was claiming was...'
But because Steve is religiously opposed to offering any good-faith response to any questions or challenges, he's left with "So what if that's true; didn't Jesus say it was a narrow gate?" That is, "yeah, there were no genuine followers of Jesus until 1946. What's your problem?"
Well, Steve, there are a lot of problems with that conclusion, a very minor one being that all your dozens of statements about how there have been hundreds of millions of people proving the truth of the gospel for 1900 years all are instantly rendered entirely false. Not that you've ever cared in the slightest about that sort of thing before, but maybe this will be the first time!
SteveB
Well-known member
?
What did you think the first century Jesus followers throughout Judea and the Galilee used for scripture?
As always, Steve has no interest at all in even trying to clarify his own argument, let alone in defending it against challenges, so he just asks a random, irrelevant question and pretends it's a So there!
If Steve responds to this, it will probably be along the lines of how my failure to see the relevance of his question just demonstrates how much I hate the truth, and how much I need Jesus, and how long I'll be in the lake of fire, etc., etc., etc. It will not, under any circumstances, contain anything explaining how his question is at all relevant to anything I said, anything he is "responding" to here.
SteveB
Well-known member
Why, I thought you were more intelligent than me.
It's not complicated.
Jesus said that if we continue in his teachings, we will know the truth and the truth will set us free.
What's spooky is that you think an argument can force you to choose.
And?
The Pixie earlier said:
Which bit of that is the "scientific method for learning"? What bit of that is about learning in any sense? None of it. Did you mean the scientific method rather than the "scientific method for learning"? I expect so, but a college education in physics apparently failed to teach you what the correct term is, let alone what it means.
So is what you describe the scientific method? It is part of it, but it misses the steps of drawing a prediction and then testing the prediction.
With regards to evolution, examples of predictions would be be the pattern observed in the fossil record and in genetics - the nested hierarchy in particular.
When we have these discussions we step onto your merry-go-round with you.
Sure, to you someone refusing to blindly accept your BS as fact means they are afraid to learn.
That is because you were conditioned from an early age to blindly accept it yourself.
Bingo!
Blindly believing something would necessarily mean I have to stop thinking clearly. The recent discussion about Plantinga's EAAN shows how religion clouds the thinking of very intelligent people. Another great example is John Lennox, another professor at a very good university, and another guy whose thinking has been derailed because of his religion; like you he blindly accepts the Bible as fact. I am not saying that because I disagree with their religion, but because the flaws in the arguments they present are so obvious, and yet they are apparently oblivious to them.
Look at your own case. Again and again we ask you to give us a reason why the bible is true, and all you can say is that it must be true because it is true. And you just as oblivious to the fallacy in your argument as Plantina and Lennox are to the flaws in their arguments.
I do not want to be another zombified religionist.
While you have the false security of a man confidently sailing into a hurricane because he refuses to check the weather.
Again, the only evidence you have assumes the Bible is true.
Being another zombified religionist who blindly assumes the Bible is true.
And they all suffer from the same flaw - that we have to blindly assume the Bible is true first.
Like every other zombified religionist you cannot see the fallacy in your argument.
ME: Steve has no interest at all in even trying to clarify his own argument, let alone in defending it against challenges.
STEVE: [Shows no interest at all in even trying to clarify his own argument, let alone in defending it against challenges.]
SteveB
Well-known member
If you require clarification, then I'd say that you aren't as think as you smart you are.
It's not that difficult.
Jesus said that unless you become as a little child, you shall by no means enter the Kingdom of God.
I.e., he made this simple enough for a child to grasp.
So, I'd say that the problem you're having here is that you are overthinking this.
Where I come from, there are several things in life that nobody else can do for you, and you gain the benefit.
I can't urinate for you and you experience the relief.
I can't defecate for you and you experience the relief.
I can't eat for you and you enjoy the taste, and nutritional benefits
I can't drink for you and you enjoy the taste, and the benefits.
I can't have sex for you, and you enjoy the experience and get the procreation benefit.
In like manner, I can't believe something for you and you gain the benefit of doing so.
So, God has made it so that each and every single person must believe him, in order to gain the benefit of knowing YHVH and Jesus.
You're more than welcome to continue playing games with your life.
But the only way anyone can actually KNOW YHVH is by coming to him through Jesus Christ.
SteveB
Well-known member
Ok. You're not as ...... as I was led to believe.
I thought you were capable of answering simple questions.
Obviously not.
Well, there's no point in fighting with you over such simple things.
Enjoy whatever life you have.
The central plank in the credo of SteveBism is that every word which proceedeth from SteveB is not only right and true but sparklingly clear and obvious, so any failure to understand what in the hell SteveB is saying is entirely the fault of SteveB's reader. Only those who are outside the Faith, and thus justly condemned to an eternity in the lake of fire, doubt this proposition.
Another, related plank in the SteveBism credo is that there is not, and cannot ever be, any distinction to be made between "SteveB said this" and "Jesus said that" This is why, when somebody asks "Steve, why do you say this? It doesn't make any sense," Steve will inevitably reply "Jesus said that."
Steve's most likely response here, based on past experience, is:
"And?"
SteveB
Well-known member
Do you really think you're helping yourself here?
You were given everything you needed to know YHVH years ago.
Unless and until you turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus, you're only hurting yourself.
ME: It's really just an amazing act of presumption for Steve to respond to any criticism of his mistakes and fallacies and lack of clarify by talking about Jesus, as if Steve were Jesus's acknowledged deputy on earth, and every word which proceeded from Steve was self-evidently the word of Jesus!
STEVE: [responds to criticism of his post by talking about Jesus.]