Rejecting the Biblical Doctrine of Justification by Faith

[Gary Mac]

First of all, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I'm not entirely knowledgeable of the Reform viewpoint, so I won't comment on that. Except to say I don't get the sense they see their believing as "involuntary." I realize you didn't say that precisely, but that their salvation was an involuntary act, but since we are talking about faith and believing, I think their view is very close to Thomas Aquinas in my Catholic tradition, who said that God changes you so as to then believe voluntarily (by the grace of a pre-movement or pre motu). Everything you do - believe, repent, hope, love - is something you do because you yourself want to do it, voluntarily, willingly. To call it by grace is to say that you feel moved to do so, as the result of an interior motion inside you that is not by your own creation but moves you from within yourself as a gift/grace. That said, I think you are correct that the Reform view is that you cannot resist this motion but will always assent or acquiesce, whereas the Catholic view is that you do indeed retain the power to throw it off and refuse it. For example, a person can feel initial compassion for someone by the road, as the Good Samaritan felt, but then deny it and walk on by. Or you can feel yourself moved to believe a story you are being told, but then deny it and refuse to believe it, saying, "I almost fell for that."

I tend to agree with what you are saying, so perhaps there is a semantic issue here as to what you mean as "under his own power." Jesus says that the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which the early church fathers (Methodius, for example) interpreted to mean that it lies buried within our soul. So we have within us the abilities to believe and to have compassion, for example, but we are alienated from it. Our egos have an egotistical nature that fears death and will do anything for survival, and can cut us off from and bury our compassion or belief in goodness. Our egotistical nature is inherently self-serving, and so we are alienated from our inner self which is made in the image of God and is a descendant/child of God, as you say. So when I read Paul saying that the Spirit strengthens our inner self, the Spirit is adding strength to something that is already within us. But I think of myself as the ego or "outer self/man," with my ego-nature (which is by nature egotistical and "by nature a child of wrath"), even though I have within myself an inner self made in God's image and a child of God with faith, hope, generosity, compassion, love. And for me, as the ego-self, I will receive all internal movements and impulses coming from my inner self as a grace. We all have compassion within us, but it is not the ego making it, but rather comes from within us, or we find it within us as a gift or treasure waiting to be discovered as in a field, as Jesus says.

I think you are right that the Romans 1 people who are handed over to their own delusions started off in a more neutral position and went downhill from there. (I don't know what the Reform definition of "depravity" is, so I can't comment on that.) I think if you are moved to compassion, for example, and then deny it, you can be held responsible for not having been compassionate. You are only responsible because you were given the grace to do something, but threw off and denied the grace.

Is this faith coming from your ego-self or from your inner self?
I see the bible saying that faith is a gift of the Spirit, and that the Spirit strengthens the inner self, so that you can now believe.
I agree that Paul says that you receive the Spirit through faith (Galatians 3). But I see that faith as being already a grace from the Spirit, leading you to welcome the Spirit so as to indwell you. God draws you by moving you to believe, and then you can call on God for the blessing of the Spirit as an indwelling presence to strengthen your inner self.

In my 77 years I have come to learn that beliefs are not real, only speculation and anyone can believe anything about a God. I to had beliefs about God. But a day came just in the life of Jesus in Matt 3:16 when God Himself came by the Spirit He is and said here I Am, here is My will for you.

There is a huge difference in believing things about a God and God Himself coming and manifest Himself in you and opening up His will in you. And when you read the before and after Matt 3:16 when God came to him and open in that man who He is and all of His heaven, look at the change in that mans disposition. He was not the same after that at all. In fact the very ones who once reverend him as a rabbi even from a young age, after that enlightenment by God Himself were the very ones who had him crucified for blaspheme.

Beliefs? Just look at all the different ones in this very forum. How many here has received from God the same as Jesus did? It isn't hard to distinguish who is like in the Father and who isn't.

Gods ultimate purpose is that He may be manifest in my mortal man. I cant count the times I have been deemed as a blasphemer for that very statement.

 

[utilyan]

Why does the Roman Catholic Church reject the doctrine of justification by faith when God's Word teaches this quite clearly in many places?

1 CORINTHIANS 13-->if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Good Luck getting a protestants to say amen to the above verse.

 

[cjab]

1 CORINTHIANS 13-->if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Good Luck getting a protestants to say amen to the above verse.

But no-one can seriously doubt that justification is by faith: Rom 5:1 - not even Catholics, whatever else they say.

But as to salvation, 2Pe 1:5 as also Paul (as you point out) talk about what must accompany faith. And this is likely the real bone of contention between different denominations, along with the very meaning of the word "faith" (Gk: "pisteuo"), as to which some build a doctrinal interpretation on top of it (i.e faith implies love, etc. etc.), but as to which extended meaning I am not sure the original Greek word itself bears; but the application of the word in the biblical setting of faith in God invariably does; but not always, e.g. in doctrinal teaching as found in sundry places, e.g. in the letter of James.

As to which doctrinal teaching, to talk about adding to faith would seem to contain "pisteuo" to its narrow meaning of "being persuaded of the truth of something," but in other places, particularly in the mouth of Christ, "pisteuo" does seem to infer that extended application of being a servant of Christ.

 

[balshan]

1 CORINTHIANS 13-->if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Good Luck getting a protestants to say amen to the above verse.

No that would be too hard for RCs. They would have to get spades, shovels, diggers to move the mountain and we have seen RC love for others it is non existent.

Non RCs know fath moves mountains and they know the importance of love. We do not have to work to move the mountain.

One cannot love without being born again, RCs prove that fact in their posts. They are all talk but we know they do not love Non Rcs, and they really do not love ex RCs.

 

[utilyan]

No that would be too hard for RCs. They would have to get spades, shovels, diggers to move the mountain and we have seen RC love for others it is non existent.

Non RCs know fath moves mountains and they know the importance of love. We do not have to work to move the mountain.

One cannot love without being born again, RCs prove that fact in their posts. They are all talk but we know they do not love Non Rcs, and they really do not love ex RCs.

Jesus' personal example of AGAPE is THE GOOD SAMARITAN. Someone you would disqualify.


1 CORINTHIANS 13-->if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1 john 3
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

Still, havent heard amen to the bible verses. IF A = B and B=C.

Tell everyone why you hate those verses. Tell everyone why you DON'T think the good Samaritan is capable of Love.

2 John
6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning, that you must walk in love.

 

[balshan]

Jesus' personal example of AGAPE is THE GOOD SAMARITAN. Someone you would disqualify.


1 CORINTHIANS 13-->if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1 john 3
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

Still, havent heard amen to the bible verses. IF A = B and B=C.

Tell everyone why you hate those verses. Tell everyone why you DON'T think the good Samaritan is capable of Love.

2 John
6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning, that you must walk in love.

You are bearing false witness and that is not true love. As I said RCs love to brag about how they love, but their fruit leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[utilyan]

But no-one can seriously doubt that justification is by faith: Rom 5:1 - not even Catholics, whatever else they say.

But as to salvation, 2Pe 1:5 as also Paul (as you point out) talk about what must accompany faith. And this is likely the real bone of contention between different denominations, along with the very meaning of the word "faith" (Gk: "pisteuo"), as to which some build a doctrinal interpretation on top of it (i.e faith implies love, etc. etc.), but as to which extended meaning I am not sure the original Greek word itself bears; but the application of the word in the biblical setting of faith in God invariably does; but not always, e.g. in doctrinal teaching as found in sundry places, e.g. in the letter of James.

As to which doctrinal teaching, to talk about adding to faith would seem to contain "pisteuo" to its narrow meaning of "being persuaded of the truth of something," but in other places, particularly in the mouth of Christ, "pisteuo" does seem to infer that extended application of being a servant of Christ.

Faith does not imply love, precisely why it was written out in Corinthians and other places throughout the bible.

Faith is not a magical word. It is about trust and belief.


James 2:
You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

Notice WORKS perfect the faith. Can a incomplete broke faith save you?


2 Peter 1
5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Kindness Love, Charity, those things have to be added to faith, they don't spring forth from faith.


Its just scripture after scripture showing LOVE is the highest priority.
12No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 12No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us.

8The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.

Verses after verses teach the superiority of the GOOD WORK that is Love.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Which is the greatest?

There is a word for anything that is absent of Love, its called evil and sin.

 

[utilyan]

You are bearing false witness and that is not true love. As I said RCs love to brag about how they love, but their fruit leaves a lot to be desired.

1 CORINTHIANS 13-->if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Never quite get an amen. You don't believe that verse do you ?

Is that verse TRUE or NOT? hmmmmmmmmmmm?


Is a FLAWED FAITH good enough to save a person?

 

[utilyan]

Abraham first contact with God, how come it wasn't just a perfect faith first?

God directly talks to him. How is that possible if he doesn't even have a perfect faith to start with?

You think when GOD is TALKING to Abraham there is some kind of struggle of faith where He doesn't believe God exists or is real?

No God talks to him. God is Love and speaks to him and the good samaritan. This idea of exclusivity is not shared in scriptures.

 

[cjab]

Is a FLAWED FAITH good enough to save a person?

Which is why, as I identfied, there is often that implication deduced from its application that saving faith is a genuine faith.

 

[Gary Mac]

1 CORINTHIANS 13-->if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

Good Luck getting a protestants to say amen to the above verse.

Moving that mountain, veil, that stands between man and God that keeps one from receiving from God His same disposition of mind as Jesus removed in Matt 3:16 and received from God and let Him. opening your who He is and all of His heaven in you is very difficult for anyone who refuses to let God come to them and make them as He is and in His same image.

He is at your door knocking this day, and anyone who will open that barrier of a mountain and let Him in, He will come to you and sup with you and be in you. Rev 3:20.

 

[Gary Mac]

But no-one can seriously doubt that justification is by faith: Rom 5:1 - not even Catholics, whatever else they say.

Justification comes by God Himself manifest Himself in you, and that is your decision, not His for He is willing to justify anyone into His same image and have His same disposition of mind.

But as to salvation, 2Pe 1:5 as also Paul (as you point out) talk about what must accompany faith. And this is likely the real bone of contention between different denominations, along with the very meaning of the word "faith" (Gk: "pisteuo"), as to which some build a doctrinal interpretation on top of it (i.e faith implies love, etc. etc.), but as to which extended meaning I am not sure the original Greek word itself bears; but the application of the word in the biblical setting of faith in God invariably does; but not always, e.g. in doctrinal teaching as found in sundry places, e.g. in the letter of James.

Exercising faith, manifesting faith, will produce anything that what one was once was void of.

Most cant even muster enough faith to receive the least of the gifts, let alone heal the sick or even be saved by God Himself be your own disposition and in His same image, perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect. Most say they have faith in Christ but that is all they do is say it without any return for actuality of God manifesting himself in them, as He did in Jesus in Matt 3:16, Adam in GHen 3:22 Abraham, Moses, 120.

As to which doctrinal teaching, to talk about adding to faith would seem to contain "pisteuo" to its narrow meaning of "being persuaded of the truth of something," but in other places, particularly in the mouth of Christ, "pisteuo" does seem to infer that extended application of being a servant of Christ.

Gods ultimate purpose is that he may be manifest in your mortal man Himself, and that takes an exercise in faith for him to manifest Himself in you as He did in Jesus in Matt 3:16 when Jesus himself exercised that faith for a result.

 

[Gary Mac]

No that would be too hard for RCs. They would have to get spades, shovels, diggers to move the mountain and we have seen RC love for others it is non existent.

Non RCs know fath moves mountains and they know the importance of love. We do not have to work to move the mountain.

One cannot love without being born again, RCs prove that fact in their posts. They are all talk but we know they do not love Non Rcs, and they really do not love ex RCs.

Most here ar all talk with no action of God Himself be their own disposition of mind. All that have is a belief fro their gods they can control to obey them, and just about all of these has their own gods in their own image instead of being in the same image of the God who is a sPirit of Love, for God is Love. They seek a man as a god who never will come instead. That way they dont have to be accountable for being perfect even as the God in heaven is perfect, Matt 5:48.

 

[Merton]

But no-one can seriously doubt that justification is by faith: Rom 5:1 - not even Catholics, whatever else they say.

But as to salvation, 2Pe 1:5 as also Paul (as you point out) talk about what must accompany faith.

Are you distinguishing between justification in this life (which is by faith) and salvation from wrath on the last day (when additional things will need to accompany faith)?

And this is likely the real bone of contention between different denominations, along with the very meaning of the word "faith" (Gk: "pisteuo"), as to which some build a doctrinal interpretation on top of it (i.e faith implies love, etc. etc.), but as to which extended meaning I am not sure the original Greek word itself bears; but the application of the word in the biblical setting of faith in God invariably does; but not always, e.g. in doctrinal teaching as found in sundry places, e.g. in the letter of James.

As to which doctrinal teaching, to talk about adding to faith would seem to contain "pisteuo" to its narrow meaning of "being persuaded of the truth of something," but in other places, particularly in the mouth of Christ, "pisteuo" does seem to infer that extended application of being a servant of Christ.

I agree that "Faith" on its very own is as you say, "being persuaded of the truth of something." For example in the Hebrews definition of faith:

Hebrews 11 1-3
Now faith is confidence in what we hope for and assurance about what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for.
By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.

To understand that God created the universe without using prior matter but creating new matter, the visible out of the invisible, is simply a mental act of believing something. You can't put your trust in that belief itself, but it's simply a question of whether you believe it or not. The demons, for example, believe it, as James would say and as you mentioned. But you can build on that belief in order to believe other things - things in which you can indeed put your trust, such as believing and putting your trust in God's promise. Because of your belief that God creates, you can then believe God's promise that He will create new life, as Abraham did (Romans 4:20). And putting your trust in this belief means that you will act accordingly. Abraham, for example, picked up his tents and moved to the promised land. For us, to act accordingly is to be patient while we await the second coming and to endure in our lives in Christ, doing good (Romans 2:6-7). So in sum, when what you are believing is simply a fact that is already true (e.g. that God exists, God created the world, God created a child for Abraham, God resurrected Jesus), then that is faith "on its own" or "by itself" (James 2:17) which even demons are capable of (believing what they know to be facts). But when what you believe is something that is unseen because it still lies in our future, as in believing a Promise that God has made (e.g. that God saves all who call on Him, that God can unite you with Christ, that coming into union with Christ means you are justified to receive from him and share in the same eternal life that Jesus has), then that belief becomes something that alters what you do, like picking up your tents to move or calling on God or being baptized into Jesus or patiently persevering in doing good - and we can call this putting your trust in your belief or your trust in the Promise or your trust in God.

Would you agree with this, or how would you modify it?

 

[Gary Mac]

Jesus' personal example of AGAPE is THE GOOD SAMARITAN. Someone you would disqualify.

Jesus personal example is be as he was in the father who sent him as example for who you are supposed to be exactly as he was in the Father.

1 CORINTHIANS 13-->if I have absolute faith so as to move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1 john 3
18 Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

Still, havent heard amen to the bible verses. IF A = B and B=C.

Tell everyone why you hate those verses. Tell everyone why you DON'T think the good Samaritan is capable of Love.

2 John
6And this is love, that we walk according to His commandments. This is the very commandment you have heard from the beginning, that you must walk in love.

Walking in Gods commandments that state to be as I Am and in My same image, perfect even as your Father in heaven is perfect is a whole different meaning from trying too follow those laws and actually letting God come to you and open in you who He is and all of His heaven in you as He did in Jesus in Matt 3:16.

Jesus describe his renewing of his mind by God Himself as born again. Ye must be born again with that same renewing or one never will know who God is or who Jesus was.

 

[Gary Mac]

Faith does not imply love, precisely why it was written out in Corinthians and other places throughout the bible.

Faith is not a magical word. It is about trust and belief.

Beliefs are not real, only speculation and anyone can believe anything about a god. the only truth is in using faith to manifest Giod in you that He may become your own disposition of mind and walk as He walks in it. Faith exercised accomplishes the desires of the heart no matter what that might be.

James 2:
You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.

22You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;

Notice WORKS perfect the faith. Can a incomplete broke faith save you?

That is exactly what I have been saying, faith is an action word to be exercised to produce what one was ignorant of.

Want Christ to come? Then exercise your faith in God to reveal the Christ in you, and in that He will anoint you with His same disposition of mind, which would be Christ in you, you being that person of Christ who is anointed of Gods same mind, just as Jesus became in Matt 3:16 and not before.

2 Peter 1
5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

Kindness Love, Charity, those things have to be added to faith, they don't spring forth from faith.


Its just scripture after scripture showing LOVE is the highest priority.
12No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us. 12No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God remains in us, and His love is perfected in us.

8The one who does not love does not know God, because God is love.

God is love, and the one who remains in love remains in God, and God remains in him.

Verses after verses teach the superiority of the GOOD WORK that is Love.

13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Which is the greatest?

There is a word for anything that is absent of Love, its called evil and sin.

 

[Gary Mac]

Which is why, as I identfied, there is often that implication deduced from its application that saving faith is a genuine faith.

Salvation is an act of faith where God Himself is manifest in you to have His same disposition of mind yourself.

Never look for Gods explanations through intellect, look for it in your disposition. It is that which is wrong.

 

[Merton]

In my 77 years I have come to learn that beliefs are not real, only speculation and anyone can believe anything about a God. I to had beliefs about God. But a day came just in the life of Jesus in Matt 3:16 when God Himself came by the Spirit He is and said here I Am, here is My will for you.

I can understand that the same Spirit of God can come to you in the same way as the Spirit of God came to Jesus. But I'm not clear as to whether you have this relationship with God's Spirit independent of Jesus or through Jesus as our intermediary. For example, how do you read John's gospel?

John 1:1-3,14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

John 14:20
On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I in you.

John 15:1,5
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener...I am the vine; you are the branches."

 

[cjab]

First of all, thank you for your thoughtful reply. I'm not entirely knowledgeable of the Reform viewpoint, so I won't comment on that. Except to say I don't get the sense they see their believing as "involuntary." I realize you didn't say that precisely, but that their salvation was an involuntary act, but since we are talking about faith and believing, I think their view is very close to Thomas Aquinas in my Catholic tradition, who said that God changes you so as to then believe voluntarily (by the grace of a pre-movement or pre motu). Everything you do - believe, repent, hope, love - is something you do because you yourself want to do it, voluntarily, willingly. To call it by grace is to say that you feel moved to do so, as the result of an interior motion inside you that is not by your own creation but moves you from within yourself as a gift/grace. That said, I think you are correct that the Reform view is that you cannot resist this motion but will always assent or acquiesce, whereas the Catholic view is that you do indeed retain the power to throw it off and refuse it. For example, a person can feel initial compassion for someone by the road, as the Good Samaritan felt, but then deny it and walk on by. Or you can feel yourself moved to believe a story you are being told, but then deny it and refuse to believe it, saying, "I almost fell for that."

I think there is a lot of superstitious nonsense attached to this subject. The capacity of most people to receive the gospel and discern the Spirit inherent in the gospel message should never be underestimated. What prevents people receiving the gospel is variable, a common issue is cynicism or arrogance on the part of the receiver, but after that, the sheer failure to communicate the gospel effectively, which often involves a failure to provide intellectual stimulus or relay the message with necessary conviction. For my own part, after having attended church services for years as a child, I still hadn't got the faintest idea what religion was about because it was never relayed to me coherently. It was all about doing things, rather than understanding things. Hence I never understood it as a child. Superficiality is the bane of so much religion today, and why it doesn't bear fruit.

I tend to agree with what you are saying, so perhaps there is a semantic issue here as to what you mean as "under his own power." Jesus says that the kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which the early church fathers (Methodius, for example) interpreted to mean that it lies buried within our soul. So we have within us the abilities to believe and to have compassion, for example, but we are alienated from it. Our egos have an egotistical nature that fears death and will do anything for survival, and can cut us off from and bury our compassion or belief in goodness. Our egotistical nature is inherently self-serving, and so we are alienated from our inner self which is made in the image of God and is a descendant/child of God, as you say. So when I read Paul saying that the Spirit strengthens our inner self, the Spirit is adding strength to something that is already within us. But I think of myself as the ego or "outer self/man," with my ego-nature (which is by nature egotistical and "by nature a child of wrath"), even though I have within myself an inner self made in God's image and a child of God with faith, hope, generosity, compassion, love. And for me, as the ego-self, I will receive all internal movements and impulses coming from my inner self as a grace. We all have compassion within us, but it is not the ego making it, but rather comes from within us, or we find it within us as a gift or treasure waiting to be discovered as in a field, as Jesus says.

Very thoughful.

I think you are right that the Romans 1 people who are handed over to their own delusions started off in a more neutral position and went downhill from there. (I don't know what the Reform definition of "depravity" is, so I can't comment on that.) I think if you are moved to compassion, for example, and then deny it, you can be held responsible for not having been compassionate. You are only responsible because you were given the grace to do something, but threw off and denied the grace.

I agree.

Is this faith coming from your ego-self or from your inner self?
I see the bible saying that faith is a gift of the Spirit, and that the Spirit strengthens the inner self, so that you can now believe.

In Ephesians 2:8–9, it is not faith that is a gift, but salvation by the grace of God that is a gift. As faith depends on grace, I suppose the seed of faith may be seen as a derived gift, which is afterwards strengthened by the Spirit and confession.

I agree that Paul says that you receive the Spirit through faith (Galatians 3). But I see that faith as being already a grace from the Spirit, leading you to welcome the Spirit so as to indwell you.

A grace from the Spirit in the words of the messenger, or a grace from the Spirit within the hearer? How can the hearer without faith be imputed with the Spirit? Therefore, if faith is induced by the grace, I would say that such grace comes through the Spirit by the word preached, for as Jesus said "the words I have spoken to you are spirit and they are life".

I would conclude that faith arises from the same grace as is inherent in the gospel, and that it is the response of man to the grace of the gospel communicated by the Spirit, rather than any prior indwelling of the Spirit "causing belief."

God draws you by moving you to believe, and then you can call on God for the blessing of the Spirit as an indwelling presence to strengthen your inner self.

I agree.

 

[Gary Mac]

I can understand that the same Spirit of God can come to you in the same way as the Spirit of God came to Jesus. But I'm not clear as to whether you have this relationship with God's Spirit independent of Jesus or through Jesus as our intermediary. For example, how do you read John's gospel?

By the Spiritual connotations in it. There is a duality in all of scripture. One sees it through the eyes that is carnal as in a man as a god, and one see it through the eyes of Spirit that God is a Spirit and not a man at all but man receiving from God His same disposition of mind, or Spirit the mind is referred to.

John 1:1-3,14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made...The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

Yes our flesh, the place God resides. Jesus was very clear in that in Luke 17:20-21, the kingdom of God, His heaven or His hell, doesnt come with observation, it is within you.

As far as he that John 1 speaks of is God Himself. Here is what Jesus Said about himself and this God John was ferrying to.

John 12:49: For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 12:44-45. who believes in me, does not believe in me but in Him who sent me. He who sees me sees Him who sent me.
John

7:16. Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

John 5 :17 I can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.

John 5:19. “Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”

John 6:38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

Joihn 17:2-21, the kingdom of God doesnt come withj observation, it is withn you

John 16:23. And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you.

John 14:16. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Matt 11:25. At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.

It is very clear to me that Jesus didnt create anything according to what he said of himself and his God that he could do noting at all of himself.

John 14:20
On that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I in you.

Yes and Jesus was very clear in that in John 17 when he prayed to his God for His God he called Father to be in us and we in Him as one just as the Father was in him and he was in the Father as one.

John 15:1,5
“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener...I am the vine; you are the branches."

Yes God plants the seed and those who mature bear His fruit. Hod seed was planted in Jesus in Matt 3:16 when he came to Jesus by the Spirit He is and open up in that man who He is and all of His heaven in that man, only then did Jesus bear that same fruit by the same image His seed, Spirit, produces.

Only self can separate one from being of the same knowledge that is of Love of mind that GHod is. Wither Jesus was a deceiver or some extraordinary thing happens in man who receives the Love that God is as your own dispopsition as Jesus received from Him when the odds are against Gods Character as Jesus faced in crucifixion. logic is silenced in the face of every one of these things. Only one things can account for it, The Love that God is be your own disposition of mind.

Train wrecks happen when they get off track and out from that wreck God arrises in me and I rise with Him every time to get me back on track.

Gods ultimate purpose is that He may be manifest in my mortal man, and we know that there is no criminal who is half bad in actuality as you know yourself to be in possibility. In the flesh is no good thing, the good comes through when you see yourself as you see others.