A belated, Good morning to you too
Thanks for the responseA belated, Good morning to you too
You are correct. Conversations with others are not used using fixed words all the time. There are times when it is necessary though. I think about my job as a Dean of Students at a school. If I have to call a parent, whether it be because of unacceptable behavior or to let a parent know about the wonderful things there child is doing, I use a fixed set of words. I actually have written out the way in which I begin a conversation with a parent: "Hello, this is Mr. Dunham, Dean of Students at . . . I just want to say that your child . . . (something positive about them) however, he/she mad a choice that was a choice that goes against what the expected behavior in the school which was . . . and so on and so forth. I think this is typical for most places of work. I feel that when in conversation with friends or family, we do not have a fixed set of words every time we speak with them but we probably often follow a particular pattern of conversation.
The Orthodox agree with you 100% and there is room for spontaneous prayer in the Orthodox faith. I imagine this is what much of practicing Orthodox do during prayer whether it be giving thanks, when in sorrow or what ever is on the heart of the individual.
Orthodox agree 100% and as you mentioned, what Jesus is warning us is "falling into empty and meaningless repetition" as the pagans/Gentiles did. I think any kind of prayer has the potential to be "empty and meaningless." Christ taught His Apostles the pray the Lords prayer, which is a recited prayer. It is also a model that is used in much of the prayers of the Orthodox faith.
Beautiful! Thanks for sharing!
ziapueblo said:
Definitely, I have a prayer rope myself. It has 100 knots and I wear it around my left wrist. I live just over a mile away from my work so I am able to walk to my school. I us the prayer rope to say the Jesus Prayer, "Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me a sinner." It's a beautiful prayer. A prayer rope and using it to say the Jesus Prayer is more of a monastic tradition, you won't find many Orthodox using one, although some do. If recited meaningfully, from the heart, it is not harmful.
Yes, you can find many lovely ones. Mostly made in a monastery.
I'm not sure of anywhere in Scripture that there is any teaching on praying or reciting the Psalms. Does that matter? We see the Psalms quoted all over the New Testament. I am not that familiar with Jewish worship at that time but I imagine that the Psalms were recited. I do know that the ancient Jews participated in a regular cycle of prayer (1st, 3rd, 6th and 9th hour) where Psalms and other prayers were recited. We see St Peter in Acts 10:9 praying at the sixth hour. The early Christian Church continued this Tradition. Most Orthodox Churches have Wednesday and Saturday evening Vespers, Orthros (morning prayer) and our Church is open at noon everyday for 6th hour prayers.
Correct, Christ never mentions a specific number, but He did give the Apostles, and us, this prayer, so it seems that reciting it is something that we should do regularly. It's a wonderful prayer for any situation we find ourselves in. As far as the Hail Mary, that is not an Orthodox thing. We have the Akathist, which is a version of the Hail Mary, but used in a totally different context.
I wouldn't say that. I prayed the Jesus Prayer on my walk to work this morning. Do you know my heart or my thoughts while I pray? If I see someone say Grace at a restaurant, or praying in a Church, I wouldn't call that meaningless, no matter what type of prayer it may be.
Only God know that hearts and minds of men when they are praying. My repetition of the Jesus Prayer is not done in vain, I can assure you. Plus, look at the context, Christ was speaking of pagans praying to their false Gods. Of course it was done in vain.
We all have a particular lens in which we read Scripture.
I obviously disagree. It strengthens ones relationship with Christ just as spontaneous prayer does.
I guess it could be, depending on the heart of the person praying. The same could be said about any prayer. The thing here is that Christ is speaking of pagans who are praying to false Gods. Of course their prayer is in vain.
Where does Christ say that this is merely a guideline? I
Where does Christ say this?
The Orthodox do not disagree with you here because we do pray spontaneously. Recited prayers also help us. Are many of the Psalms not prayers? Are we not to pray them?
Why can this not be categorized as prayer? Just because it was prayed or written by someone else? Again, lets look at the Psalms, most of which are prayer. Should we get rid of them or not pray them because they were written by someone else?
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.
John 1, love it!
Psalm 136 repeats “for his mercy endures forever” [26 times]
I see what you were trying to do, but it is nothing like reciting a prayer.
I was pretty sure what your point was.
Sure, because their heart was not in prayer. Just because one recites a prayer does not make it unworthy or meaningless. My mother-in-law and her husband are very faithful Christians. They attend a Baptist Church in town with a wonderful community. The two of them use a daily devotional, with reflection and prayers. It's not spontaneous prayer. You would say Christ would condemn them for using a devotional which has recited prayers?
Traditional patterns and forms of prayer, yes. I keep track on a prayer rope, yes. The number I do, I do not keep track. It helps me keep focus on my prayer.
The knots are not meant to keep "a high quota of prayer." Like a said above, its a tool that helps one stay focused on prayer. Do I use a prayer rope all the time, no. As traditionally done, I were it on my left wrist. It reminds me to prayer throughout the day. A minute here, a minutes there. By the way, spontaneous prayer could easily be "non-stop talking."
I know but I'm not sure what your point is. Are you saying songs or hymns are not a form of prayer? When I have visited a friends Church (closest thing to a mega church in my town) there are members with their hands raised in the air, singing the songs as if they were praying. Same with my mother-in-laws Baptist Church. I know every person there feels that their singing of the worship music is a form of prayer (with lyrics that repeat themselves). I would argue that most contemporary Christian musicians would argue that their music is a form of prayer. I chant in our Church choir and I can assure you that we and everyone in the congregation believes we are praying when we chant our hymns.
This is how I spend my time in prayer. Why does it matter if I choose to begin my prayer with a recited, beautiful, ancient prayer (the Lords Prayer) and other beautiful and ancient prayers (the Psalms) along with my personal prayer? This is just something that your, as you have said to me a few times in this thread, institution teaches and part of your institutions traditions.
Couldn't agree more.
I don't disagree.
You assume Orthodox, or Catholics for that matter, don't do this. What you mention above is how Orthodox pray. Do we use recited prayer in our daily prayer, yes! Do we prayer as you mentioned, "thank you Lord for ..." Yes, all the time.