Rosh Hashanah

[balshan]

non-Christians might not be allowed to Troll on the specifically Christian forums


my friend OH likes to claim an exclusivity on the "Judaism" and what is Not department
I asked if this was in the Tanakh...(?)

"None of that is in the Tanakh,” ....referring to the Hebrew Bible.

https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/belief/articles/the-jews-youve-never-heard-of

No OH posted the answer, you seem to imply all Jewish beliefs are found in the Tanakh which is not the case. They have always had biblical feasts and non biblical feast.
The claim that OH is your friend is overstepping the mark, as you have not shown signs of friendship in your posts.

Your link is it to one sect of Judaism is it? I finally found the about us, it is not clear who they are. Is it made by Karaites or is it about them?

 

[American Gothic]

No OH posted the answer, you seem to imply all Jewish beliefs are found in the Tanakh which is not the case.

Mosaic lawful requirements are in the Tanakh
so are prophecies about the Messiah - some typological

They have always had biblical feasts and non biblical feast.

"They" do not seem to all think and do alike
and not all Jews consider this a New Years

Your link is it to one sect of Judaism is it? I finally found the about us, it is not clear who they are. Is it made by Karaites or is it about them?

from a believing Jesus perspective -
Rabbinic Judaism seems almost upside down on a lot maybe most of things

why should Jesus believers give credence to the Rabbinic view on New Years?
why should Messianics give credence to the Rabbinic view on anything?

 

[balshan]

Mosaic lawful requirements are in the Tanakh
so are prophecies about the Messiah - some typological


"They" do not seem to all think and do alike
and not all Jews consider this a New Years


from a believing Jesus perspective -
Rabbinic Judaism seems almost upside down on a lot maybe most of things

why should Jesus believers give credence to the Rabbinic view on New Years?
why should Messianics give credence to the Rabbinic view on anything?

Really they are???????????????????????????? who would have known that?????????????????/

The Tanakh has more than one meaning by the way.

 

[American Gothic]

what should the Messianic view be?

Jesus said to not believe Him was not believing Moses and the prophets

 

[American Gothic]

questioning the Rabbinic view and any influence it might have upon certain strands and organizations of MJ
would certainly be within the purview of this Forum

 

[Open Heart]

questioning the Rabbinic view and any influence it might have upon certain strands and organizations of MJ
would certainly be within the purview of this Forum

I supplied you with the MJRC website, which discusses the obligation to observe Rosh Hashana, and how they follow in rabbinical tradition. Your extreme aversion to everything rabbinical would not be appreciated by any MJ, if one ever came into the room. So you are actually arguing against MJ.

 

[Open Heart]

@American Gothic

I'm just curious. You are against Messianic Judaism, fine. I'm sure if there were actual MJ's that came in here, it would be satisfying for you to argue with them. But none come here. So why do you bother coming in here? What do you get out of it?

 

[American Gothic]

I supplied you with the MJRC website, which discusses the obligation to observe Rosh Hashana, and how they follow in rabbinical tradition. Your extreme aversion to everything rabbinical would not be appreciated by any MJ, if one ever came into the room. So you are actually arguing against MJ.

why should they be considered legit "rabbi"s?

coming in here?

I'm interested in Israel/Jews - which may be lacking in other forums and it seems to me some Christian denominations
history, literature, context of Scriptures, prophecy. covenants etc
maybe if the Calvary Chapel forum was an active thing that would be kool

I'm maybe not interested in it like you are -
my view of Judaism is more like "stuff Jews do", which for some includes believing Jesus
if Jewish people eat a certain way, observe some things, etc that would make sense to me (tho I don't think they have to at this point in time)
and there is knowledge to be gained by understanding calendar and the Feasts and things like that

if Jewish believers are most comfortable with each other and want to hang out, that makes sense to me
if they are less comfortable with gentiles that also would make sense, depending on what flavor of Christians they are dealing with

I don't see why me reasoning against certain expressions of MJ or todays Judaism is much different than
the disagreements going on in the NT among Jews themselves

Messianic Judaism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

List of Messianic Jewish organizations - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Open Heart]

why should they be considered legit "rabbi"s?

They are NOT legitimate rabbis, since rabbis are experts in Jewish law, and these are basically people who are Christian leaders of Christian congregations. IOW, they are pastors, not rabbis.

However, they ARE the legitimate leaders of UMJC. You will recall that there are two denominations in Messianic Judaism: UMJC (Union of Messianic Jewish congregations, which is the larger one) and MJAA (Messianic Jewish Alliance of America). The "Standards of Observance" issued by the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council (an arm of UMJC) is incumbent on all those who are members of its congregations. They also have written papers on such topics as the place of Gentiles in MJ, where conversion to become a Jew comes in, the place of Oral Torah in Messianic Judaism etc.

So if you want to know the behavioral expectations on more than half the MJ world, you read the Standards of Observance of this council.

The general website is http://ourrabbis.org/main/
The Standards of Observance in particular can be found if you click on the tab for Standards. The drop down menu will take you to various pages for introduction, Halakha for MJ, issues of status (who is a Jew), Kashrut, Community practices (Shabbat, Holy Days, and more), and life cycle events.
You will find their articles on the place of Gentiles in MJ and the place of Oral Torah in MJ under the tab of Articles, submenu Papers.
The article on conversion to Judaism (change of one's status to that of Jew) is under the tab of Articles.

 

[American Gothic]

They are NOT legitimate rabbis

so we bigot the same here
and some self-described Jewish believers in Jesus I'm aware of think the same on this

However, they ARE the legitimate leaders of UMJC. You will recall that there are two denominations in Messianic Judaism: UMJC (Union of Messianic Jewish congregations, which is the larger one) and MJAA (Messianic Jewish Alliance of America).

so some self-described Jewish believers in Jesus may try to look to Rabbinicism/what is called "Judaism" as their model
may even have restorationist thinking and tendencies (some gentile Christian movements do this as well)
and some don't

 

[American Gothic]

"The primary purpose of the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council (MJRC) is to articulate and promote a cohesive vision for Messianic Judaism rooted in Torah, responsive to Tradition, and faithful to Messiah Yeshua."

I assume looking to the Rabbinic model (which is post-temple Pharisaism IMO)

""The MJRC consists of ordained Rabbis (sic) and associates who promote a life of faithfulness to God's covenant among Jewish followers of Messiah Yeshua by providing realistic and practical guidelines for Messianic Jewish observance."

I would question about what this generally referenced covenant specifically is -
as I don't hold to a view of the Biblical covenants that is well known or popular within Christiandom or Judaism
but was taught to me by Christian Jews nonetheless

I would also point out they use the term "observance" - as would I, meaning distinction from a truly Lawful "keeping"

 

[Open Heart]

so some self-described Jewish believers in Jesus may try to look to Rabbinicism/what is called "Judaism" as their model
may even have restorationist thinking and tendencies (some gentile Christian movements do this as well)
and some don't

Well heck, AG, the majority of Jews who believe in Jesus become completely Gentilized -- not only do they throw Oral Torah out the window, but they toss out even attempting to obey the written Torah. But we are not talking about all Jewish believers in Jesus in this room. In this room, the idea is to talk about those who claim to be Messianic Jews. That's why I spoke of the MJRC site.

 

[American Gothic]

the majority of Jews who believe in Jesus become completely Gentilized -- not only do they throw Oral Torah out the window, but they toss out even attempting to obey the written Torah. But we are not talking about all Jewish believers in Jesus in this room. In this room, the idea is to talk about those who claim to be Messianic Jews.

this comes from yr faction/Religion - which literally defines for you what it means to be a Jew
even secular Jews are still Jews

 

[Open Heart]

this comes from yr faction/Religion - which literally defines for you what it means to be a Jew
even secular Jews are still Jews

True. But in the case of secular Jews, they become Gentilized on their own. In the case of Jewish converts to Christianity, Jews are socially pressured to Gentilize. For example, a Jewish believer in Jesus might be told by his fellow church members that it is wrong for him to keep the Sabbath, that it somehow conflicts with loving Jesus. Most Gentile Christians are not comfortable with a Jew in their church who for example brings their own kosher dinner to the church potluck.

 

[Jewjitzu]

why should Jesus believers give credence to the Rabbinic view on New Years?
why should Messianics give credence to the Rabbinic view on anything?

Ironically, and this has been pointed out to you before, Messianic Judaism affirms they are Jewish by keeping Rabbinic laws and customs, ie, lighting Shabbat candles, Hanukkah candles, wearing kippahs, tallits, reading from a Torah scroll, etc.

 

[Jewjitzu]

what should the Messianic view be?

The term "Messianic" is broad. To Christians, this term must include Jesus at its core. In Judaism, Messianic focuses on an age where Israel is restored, the knowledge of God is over the earth, Messiah reigns, and the temple is rebuilt. So in my case, Orthodox Jews are Messianic because we pray and hope for that age.

Jesus said to not believe Him was not believing Moses and the prophets

What's ironic is that not believing in the Rabbis and judges as stipulated by Moses in Deut 17:8-13, and ruling by Torah required by kings, Deut 17:18-20, is not believing God.

 

[Open Heart]

Ironically, and this has been pointed out to you before, Messianic Judaism affirms they are Jewish by keeping Rabbinic laws and customs, ie, lighting Shabbat candles, Hanukkah candles, wearing kippahs, tallits, reading from a Torah scroll, etc.

Right. Both denominations of Messianic Judaism incorporate Rabbinic traditions. You gave good examples. They do not have the same hostility towards Jewish tradition that AG has. It's really too bad that there are no MJ people in this forum that can take AG on.

I don't know how much you are curious about MJ, but the Messianic Jewish Rabbinical Council has a fascinating article on Oral Torah. The whole thing is worth reading, but I'll give you a short quote from its opening paragraph. The article is called "A Biblical Defenses of Oral Torah" and is by Mark Kinzer, who is perhaps the singularly biggest mover and shaker in the MJ movement.
"Our current Forum has taken up the topic of “Jewish Tradition.” This term is deliberately broad in scope, including in its domain the entire way of life and thought transmitted to Jews of the present from Jews of the past. While some Messianic Jews dispute the value of Jewish tradition in this sense, most recognize that we cannot construct a viable Messianic Jewish way of life without drawing at least minimally on the heritage received from our ancestors."

http://ourrabbis.org/main/documents/Oral_Torah_Kinzer.pdf

 

[American Gothic]

But in the case of secular Jews, they become Gentilized on their own

gentilization is a non-gentile problem
if I was ethnic Jew I would want the same theology and probably have the same lifestyle
it's odd how convert Jews obsess on such things

In the case of Jewish converts to Christianity, Jews are socially pressured to Gentilize.

I'm not personally interested in Jewishness is a spectrum stuff

For example, a Jewish believer in Jesus might be told by his fellow church members that it is wrong for him to keep the Sabbath, that it somehow conflicts with loving Jesus. Most Gentile Christians are not comfortable with a Jew in their church who for example brings their own kosher dinner to the church potluck.

if that is all Messianic Judaism is then whatever
if significant number gentiles are going there as well then that point isn't that relevant
it is more than just wanting to have a gathering of people similar in the Jew department

Jews should actually be leaders in understanding the scriptures
and if Jesus believers, in the New covenant especially
but they won't get that by taking cues from the Rabbi cult IMO
like a believer in Jesus needs the Oral law LOLZ

you can tell the MJRC doesn't have any real understanding on this
and exists to push that view of authority on Jewish communities and get them Rabbinic employment (as stated in the goals)

 

[American Gothic]

What's ironic is that not believing in the Rabbis and judges as stipulated by Moses in Deut 17:8-13, and ruling by Torah required by kings, Deut 17:18-20, is not believing God.

not believing Jesus is not believing God

not believing the Apostles and what they teach is not believing God
that would include understanding of the covenants and laws in a New covenant context
and living in that New reality

 

[American Gothic]

Jesus said for His followers to not use "rabbi" as a title
I assume because it indeed does mean something specific within the culture of Judaism

"But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for one is your Teacher, the Messiah, and you are all brethren."
Matthew 23