Since a few atheists love trying to confuse the issues

[SteveB]

Really? Can you point to any specific observations that have led you to conclude I want you to blindly believe what I want you to, regardless of what the truth actually is?

Every time you accuse me of being conditioned as a child, and assume things that are not true, and the accuse me of lying about my life's experiences growing up.

I ask because this is the exact opposite of what I say numerous times in every post.

Yeah, uhuh, sure..... riiiight!
Keep smoking that whiskey Pix! It's obviously deluding your mental processes....

Steve, we all know you want us to blindly believe.

Then you have never once actually read what I've been saying for the past 4033 days.

We all know you want us to blindly believe. Re-word it how you like, that is what it comes down to.

I have, repeatedly.
No worries though.
If you really want to spend your eternity in the lake of fire, you don't have to do a da88 thing. Keep going as you are.
You can reword it however you please.... the end result of your unbelief is an everlasting misery. An everlasting agony. An everlasting anguish beyond your worst possible nightmare.


Psa 116:1-19 WEB 1 I love Yahweh, because he listens to my voice, and my cries for mercy. 2 Because he has turned his ear to me, therefore I will call on him as long as I live. 3 The cords of death surrounded me, the pains of Sheol got a hold of me. I found trouble and sorrow. 4 Then I called on Yahweh’s name: “Yahweh, I beg you, deliver my soul.” 5 Yahweh is gracious and righteous. Yes, our God is merciful. 6 Yahweh preserves the simple. I was brought low, and he saved me. 7 Return to your rest, my soul, for Yahweh has dealt bountifully with you. 8 For you have delivered my soul from death, my eyes from tears, and my feet from falling. 9 I will walk before Yahweh in the land of the living. 10 I believed, therefore I said, “I was greatly afflicted.” 11 I said in my haste, “All people are liars.” 12 What will I give to Yahweh for all his benefits toward me? 13 I will take the cup of salvation, and call on Yahweh’s name. 14 I will pay my vows to Yahweh, yes, in the presence of all his people. 15 Precious in Yahweh’s sight is the death of his saints. 16 Yahweh, truly I am your servant. I am your servant, the son of your servant girl. You have freed me from my chains. 17 I will offer to you the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call on Yahweh’s name. 18 I will pay my vows to Yahweh, yes, in the presence of all his people, 19 in the courts of Yahweh’s house, in the middle of you, Jerusalem. Praise Yah!

YHVH wants to give you everlasting life in exchange for your sin.
But if such really is too odious for you then you can continue as you are.

Why do you think all British people behave the same?

i wouldn't know. My maternal ancestors left Britain over 400 years ago. My paternal ancestors left Ireland and Scotland at least 172 years ago.
as such, I don't even know if there's any relatives remaining.... maybe a 5th or 6th generation removed cousin...

This suggests some deep-seated bigotry to me that you really need to address.

And I'd say that you have some serious deep seated bigotry against the Bible and biblical Christianity that you need to address.

Again and again, all you are saying is I should blindly believe the Bible,

Thank you for demonstrating my point.
You're batting them out of the park in every single post!

When I look at the petty-minded, insulting, prideful people on CARM who say they are Christians, I think the same thing.

Further demonstrating my point...

you have some serious deep seated bigotry against the Bible and biblical Christianity that you need to address.

And yet I am sure he considered himself a Christian.

i wouldn't know. He refuses to discuss it with me.

We have discussed how the Bible regards women as inferior - it literally says they have less worth.

Actually, we've discussed how you believe that the Bible says women have less worth.
Jesus defined that women have equal worth to men, in Genesis 1-2, and restated it in John 8.

your father was an extreme, but I do not doubt he considered what he did to be Biblical.

really? I thought he was the standard model.

What does that prove?

that you are perishing because you prefer to justify yourself instead of welcoming YHVH's justification through believing in Jesus Christ.

I use the word when I am not sure.

so, you admit to using a poor choice of words to justify yourself.
bad habit!

I do not have your arrogance; I have the humility to know I can be wrong, and to make it clear in my posts that what I say is tentative.

Yet you refuse to turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus so you can be justified by YHVH.
hthat's not humility.
That's stupidity and the epitome of arrogance.

it's stupidity, because you are aware of the consequences for refusing to turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus so you can escape condemnation for your sin and unbelief.
it's arrogance because you think as long as you pay lip-service to the ideas of the words, your justification of yourself invalidates the truth.
Russian roulette anyone?
did you want a .44, 45, or .50 with that suicide you're engaged in?

That depends on what you mean by "belief".

To trust the word of someone who loves you enough to tell you the truth, and who actually has the power and authority to follow through with keeping their word to you.

Fair enough.

I guessed that the three videos you presented argued that Islam is wrong. I could have wasted three hours watching them to be sure,

but really I did not care.

It's more noticeable that you don't actually care that I find to be the problem.
Meaning that you have wasted far more than 3 hours arguing unsensibly and foolishly, about topics you have no idea about, in order to have the appearance of being a reasonable person.
That's what I consider a complete and total waste.
Congratulations though! You appear erudite to your fellow atheists.

Remember, I guessed correctly, based on the evidence I had. And I was quite clear that it was a guess.

And wasted far more than 3 hours arguing unsensibly and foolishly on topics you know nothing about.
How you think that's a win is incomprehensible in my book.

Now consider your relationship to the Bible in contrast. You are utterly certain it is true, and yet you have NO evidence of that.

I have plenty of evidence.
You however have repeatedly stated that you'll have no part of it.
And even if I were to spend the next 3 decades detailing my experiences, in diary format, you'd still reject it.
so, my job is to simply present the gospel to you...
Jesus died, and rose again to pay the penalty for your sin, so you can enjoy Peace with
YHVH, and everlasting life, freed from the power of sin, the consequences of sin, and finally, the presence of sin.

I think my situation is more realistic, more honest with myself, more honest with you.

that is your prerogative. It is after all your life.
it'll be your eternity too.
do you really want to spend 1000 10000000 100000000000000 10000000000000000000 years in misery, and then come to the awareness that those eons weren't even a picosecond of the eternity that is yet to come? All because your ego is too fragile to come to the recognition that Jesus is God's only solution?

When we have little evidence, guessing is all we can do.

Pity.
YHVH has been giving evidence to his people for millennia. And it's not merely to a small group of people a couple thousand years ago. He still does it today.

The difference between you are me is that I can acknowledge when I am guessing.

Yet you refuse to do anything effective about it. To you, it's a vague and basic idea of mental assent.

You have to pretend your unsupported BS opinions are fact.

My opinions are based on YHVH carrying through on his terms and conditions.

 

[The Pixie]

Every time you accuse me of being conditioned as a child, and assume things that are not true, and the accuse me of lying about my life's experiences growing up.

I am not saying you are lying. I would guess your religion has blinkered you to the reality that you believe the Bible first and foremost because you were told it is true as a child.

The simple fact is that neither you nor I can suggest any other reason for you to think the Bible is true beyond on that. You have been asked repeatedly, and you never have anything that does not assume the Bible is true.

And I'd say that you have some serious deep seated bigotry against the Bible and biblical Christianity that you need to address.

What bigotry? I do not believe it is true. Is that bigotry? Are you bigoted if you do not believe the Koran is true? Or is it only bigotry when people refuse to blindly follow your beliefs?

Actually, we've discussed how you believe that the Bible says women have less worth.

We have indeed. You gave up.

Jesus defined that women have equal worth to men, in Genesis 1-2, and restated it in John 8.

Can you give the actual verse?

Lev 27:1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If anyone makes a special vow to dedicate a person to the Lord by giving the equivalent value, 3 set the value of a male between the ages of twenty and sixty at fifty shekels[a] of silver, according to the sanctuary shekel; 4 for a female, set her value at thirty shekels[c]; 5 for a person between the ages of five and twenty, set the value of a male at twenty shekels[d] and of a female at ten shekels[e]; 6 for a person between one month and five years, set the value of a male at five shekels[f] of silver and that of a female at three shekels[g] of silver; 7 for a person sixty years old or more, set the value of a male at fifteen shekels[h] and of a female at ten shekels.​

According to the Bible, this is God's own words explicitly telling us women are worth less than men.

so, you admit to using a poor choice of words to justify yourself.

That is not what I said at all.

Yet you refuse to turn to YHVH from your sin and place your trust in Jesus so you can be justified by YHVH.
hthat's not humility.
That's stupidity and the epitome of arrogance.

What is arrogant about not blindly believing?

Are you arrogant if you refuse to blindly believe the Koran? Of course not. In SteveB's world, it is arrogant to not blindly believe what SteveB believes.

To me, that is arrogance,

To trust the word of someone who loves you enough to tell you the truth, and who actually has the power and authority to follow through with keeping their word to you.

Why would I trust a god I do not believe exists?

Remember, every time we ask you for evidence God is real, all you have is the Bible that you assume is true. Great for you, you were conditioned to believe it as a kid. But that does not work for the rest of us.

My opinions are based on YHVH carrying through on his terms and conditions.

They are based on assuming God exists, on assuming that God will carry through on his terms and conditions. Why do you assume that is true?

Think about it, Steve. It clearly is not evidence. So what is it?

 

[SteveB]

I am not saying you are lying. I would guess your religion has blinkered you to the reality that you believe the Bible first and foremost because you were told it is true as a child.

The simple fact is that neither you nor I can suggest any other reason for you to think the Bible is true beyond on that. You have been asked repeatedly, and you never have anything that does not assume the Bible is true.


What bigotry? I do not believe it is true. Is that bigotry? Are you bigoted if you do not believe the Koran is true? Or is it only bigotry when people refuse to blindly follow your beliefs?


We have indeed. You gave up.


Can you give the actual verse?

Lev 27:1 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If anyone makes a special vow to dedicate a person to the Lord by giving the equivalent value, 3 set the value of a male between the ages of twenty and sixty at fifty shekels[a] of silver, according to the sanctuary shekel; 4 for a female, set her value at thirty shekels[c]; 5 for a person between the ages of five and twenty, set the value of a male at twenty shekels[d] and of a female at ten shekels[e]; 6 for a person between one month and five years, set the value of a male at five shekels[f] of silver and that of a female at three shekels[g] of silver; 7 for a person sixty years old or more, set the value of a male at fifteen shekels[h] and of a female at ten shekels.​

According to the Bible, this is God's own words explicitly telling us women are worth less than men.


That is not what I said at all.


What is arrogant about not blindly believing?

Are you arrogant if you refuse to blindly believe the Koran? Of course not. In SteveB's world, it is arrogant to not blindly believe what SteveB believes.

To me, that is arrogance,


Why would I trust a god I do not believe exists?

Remember, every time we ask you for evidence God is real, all you have is the Bible that you assume is true. Great for you, you were conditioned to believe it as a kid. But that does not work for the rest of us.


They are based on assuming God exists, on assuming that God will carry through on his terms and conditions. Why do you assume that is true?

Think about it, Steve. It clearly is not evidence. So what is it?

Well, since you continue to accuse me of doing what you are doing, I'm thinking that it's not actual discussion you want.

I hope you enjoy smoking your whiskey. I have more enjoyable matters to attend to.

Let me know when you decide to stop twisting what I said and then blame me for your own beliefs.

 

[The Pixie]

Well, since you continue to accuse me of doing what you are doing, I'm thinking that it's not actual discussion you want.

The discussion I want is about the actual evidence for Christianity.

I started a thread about your claim of proof for the resurrection in the hope - slight though it was - that you might provide evidence, no matter how weak, that the resurrection actually happened. As I recall, all you had was that people decades later believed it.

Let me know when you decide to stop twisting what I said and then blame me for your own beliefs.

I am happy to be responsible for my beliefs. I will continue to believe what appears to be true. What appears to be true to me is that Christianity is wrong; it is based on myths and legends based on varying degrees of fact, and is, at heart incoherent.

Furthermore, what appears to be true is that the major reason a person adopts a religion is that he or she was raised to think that religion is true. I see no other way to explain why the vast majority of Hindus were raised in Hindu culture, Muslims in Muslim culture and Christians in Christian culture. If you can explain that any other way, I will be happy to listen, but at the point I am sure you cannot.

 

[SteveB]

The discussion I want is about the actual evidence for Christianity.

I gave you a pretty comprehensive list of books.
Go read them, and then come back and we'll talk further.

I started a thread about your claim of proof for the resurrection in the hope - slight though it was - that you might provide evidence, no matter how weak, that the resurrection actually happened. As I recall, all you had was that people decades later believed it.


I am happy to be responsible for my beliefs. I will continue to believe what appears to be true. What appears to be true to me is that Christianity is wrong; it is based on myths and legends based on varying degrees of fact, and is, at heart incoherent.

Furthermore, what appears to be true is that the major reason a person adopts a religion is that he or she was raised to think that religion is true. I see no other way to explain why the vast majority of Hindus were raised in Hindu culture, Muslims in Muslim culture and Christians in Christian culture. If you can explain that any other way, I will be happy to listen, but at the point I am sure you cannot.

 

[The Pixie]

I gave you a pretty comprehensive list of books.

And later proved you had not even read at least one of them.

Go read them, and then come back and we'll talk further.

No. You claimed to have the proof. Either you have it, and present. Or you do not.

If you had actually read the books - and they contain this mythical proof - you would be able to say what it is. At this stage, it is clear that either you have NOT read them, or they do NOT contain any such proof, or, most likely, both.

I am not doing your homework for you.

 

[SteveB]

And later proved you had not even read at least one of them.


No. You claimed to have the proof. Either you have it, and present. Or you do not.

Ah.
Justifying yourself for the purpose of excluding yourself from achieving your previously stated goal.

That's a you thing.
I'm not interested in listening to you whining.

If you had actually read the books - and they contain this mythical proof - you would be able to say what it is. At this stage, it is clear that either you have NOT read them, or they do NOT contain any such proof, or, most likely, both.

Blah blah blah....

I am not doing your homework for you.

I never said you had to.
Why you would think me doing my own homework is your responsibility is beyond me.

You are however failing, by your own refusal to do your own homework.

Congratulations Pixie!

 

[Authentic Nouveau]

Just watch them.
He describes the problems that have been identified with the Quran and the man, and their history.

My uncle moved to Northern africa and our family invested in his mission. New farm, church housing and school. Muslim country. He speaks Arabic, 8 dialects of berber, low German, High German and english. and fluid French. They won a lot of Muslims to the Lord. When he sorta retired, he started an Arabic speaking Baptist Church down town near my offices. One day he drops by and introduces me to a new Arabic believer. PhD polymer science. I have corporate connections in America. The saint was told if he ever went home, his family would kill him.

When my aunt passed away, the memorial service was in a Mennonite Church out in the country. (large new church)
There were Muslim friends from Asia, europe and Africa that attended. I one day hit a local food truck for lunch, The Arab guys do giros. They knew my uncle from the university where he had a table and handed out bibles in over 20 languages. He had helped them with English in engineering classes.

They had been to my uncles home in America for a dinner.

 

[Tiburon]

My uncle moved to Northern africa and our family invested in his mission. New farm, church housing and school. Muslim country. He speaks Arabic, 8 dialects of berber, low German, High German and english. and fluid French. They won a lot of Muslims to the Lord. When he sorta retired, he started an Arabic speaking Baptist Church down town near my offices. One day he drops by and introduces me to a new Arabic believer. PhD polymer science. I have corporate connections in America. The saint was told if he ever went home, his family would kill him.

When my aunt passed away, the memorial service was in a Mennonite Church out in the country. (large new church)
There were Muslim friends from Asia, europe and Africa that attended. I one day hit a local food truck for lunch, The Arab guys do giros. They knew my uncle from the university where he had a table and handed out bibles in over 20 languages. He had helped them with English in engineering classes.

They had been to my uncles home in America for a dinner.

Does this have anything to do with what's being discussed or did you just want to tell a story about your uncle?
"Northern Africa"? Could you be a little more vague? And what exactly is "fluid French"?

 

[Vladimir]

Over the past several years, a few atheists have loved to throw Islam and the Quran into the mix, in an attempt to claim the Bible can't be true, because Muslim are equally convinced they're right, or that the Quran must be true.

Here is a three part video series discussing Mohammed, The Quran, and the history.

I clicked on the first link and in the second paragraph I found this gem:

Muslim tradition teaches that Mecca is the oldest and possibly the greatest of all cities; that Adam and Eve were thrown down to it; that Abraham lived in it; and that this city was where Muhammad came from and received the Qur'an. But what does history and archaeology reveal?

I'm guessing Christians don't have issues with history and archeology WHEN it's debunking Islam but when it's debunking Christianity and Judaism, we hear how the scientists are all biased and can't be trusted. In fact, I think a Muslim can just use Christian Apologist arguments to debunk your site's debunking of Islam.

How does archaeology support the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

How does archaeology support the Bible? Does the archaeological evidence support the teachings of the Bible?

www.gotquestions.org

Of course, there are some archaeological discoveries that seem to contradict the Bible. What then? Is it archaeology or the Bible that is in error? In such cases we remember that archaeologists are people, too, with their own limitations, biases, and proneness to error. Once an artifact is found, its existence and its location must be interpreted, and it is the process of interpretation that is liable to mistakes
....
In case after case, archaeology eventually catches up with the biblical account, and archaeology and the Bible come into agreement. As Christians, we must be patient and not let our faith in God’s Word be troubled by the theories of men. Archaeology has never proved the biblical account to be wrong, although, in some cases, it lacks the evidence to prove the biblical account right. As archaeologists continue to dig, we will have more and more external evidence to substantiate the historicity and truthfulness of the Bible’s record.

 

[SteveB]

I clicked on the first link and in the second paragraph I found this gem:

Muslim tradition teaches that Mecca is the oldest and possibly the greatest of all cities; that Adam and Eve were thrown down to it; that Abraham lived in it; and that this city was where Muhammad came from and received the Qur'an. But what does history and archaeology reveal?

I'm guessing Christians don't have issues with history and archeology WHEN it's debunking Islam but when it's debunking Christianity and Judaism, we hear how the scientists are all biased and can't be trusted. In fact, I think a Muslim can just use Christian Apologist arguments to debunk your site's debunking of Islam.

How does archaeology support the Bible? | GotQuestions.org

How does archaeology support the Bible? Does the archaeological evidence support the teachings of the Bible?

www.gotquestions.org

Of course, there are some archaeological discoveries that seem to contradict the Bible. What then? Is it archaeology or the Bible that is in error? In such cases we remember that archaeologists are people, too, with their own limitations, biases, and proneness to error. Once an artifact is found, its existence and its location must be interpreted, and it is the process of interpretation that is liable to mistakes
....
In case after case, archaeology eventually catches up with the biblical account, and archaeology and the Bible come into agreement. As Christians, we must be patient and not let our faith in God’s Word be troubled by the theories of men. Archaeology has never proved the biblical account to be wrong, although, in some cases, it lacks the evidence to prove the biblical account right. As archaeologists continue to dig, we will have more and more external evidence to substantiate the historicity and truthfulness of the Bible’s record.

And?
Over the past few decades, numerous archeological discoveries have been made, corroborating people and locations.
Back in the 90's there was a new historian/archeologist who came up with a new hypothesis adjusting the timing backwards some 200-400 years.
It wound up correcting the biblical time-line.

I think the 2nd paragraph of got questions statement is accurate...

Not everything in history has been found yet.

Ironically, mecca is a big city. If what they claim was true, the ancient maps, and mounds, etc... should be there. They are not.

 

[Vladimir]

Ironically, mecca is a big city. If what they claim was true, the ancient maps, and mounds, etc... should be there. They are not.

So when are we going to find proof of Solomon's riches?

1 Kings 10:27 The king made silver as common in Jerusalem as stones, and cedar as plentiful as sycamore-fig trees in the foothills.

2 Chronicles 1:15 The king made silver and gold as common in Jerusalem as stones, and cedar as plentiful as sycamore-fig trees in the foothills.

IF the above is accurate that would make ancient Israel the wealthiest nation on earth. Forget Egypt and Rome. Israel would draw in the skilled tradespeople, the best business people. This would leave a mark for posterity. And we should have found something by now. Silver and Gold as common as stones?

 

[SteveB]

So when are we going to find proof of Solomon's riches?

1 Kings 10:27 The king made silver as common in Jerusalem as stones, and cedar as plentiful as sycamore-fig trees in the foothills.

2 Chronicles 1:15 The king made silver and gold as common in Jerusalem as stones, and cedar as plentiful as sycamore-fig trees in the foothills.

IF the above is accurate that would make ancient Israel the wealthiest nation on earth.

Sure seems like it, doesn't it.

ever read those books, and any of the prophets?
Things got so bad around 600-500 BC that the Babylonian empire invaded Israel and took the inhabitants of Jerusalem and surrounding areas captive, as well as all the gold and silver and the temple treasury.
Then, in 70 AD, Titus invaded Jerusalem, torched the city, and the temple. The fire got so hot it melted the gold that lined the temple walls. It melted down in between the stones, and the Roman army disassembled all those stones to get the gold.

All this is historically documented.

Forget Egypt and Rome. Israel would draw in the skilled tradespeople, the best business people. This would leave a mark for posterity. And we should have found something by now. Silver and Gold as common as stones?

Read more. Not to win any arguments, but to see, and understand what happened and why.

Israel seriously screwed the pooch, and God did exactly what he said he would. Deuteronomy 27-28.
Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Matthew 24-25.

It's all there.

 

[Vladimir]

Sure seems like it, doesn't it.

ever read those books, and any of the prophets?
Things got so bad around 600-500 BC that the Babylonian empire invaded Israel and took the inhabitants of Jerusalem and surrounding areas captive, as well as all the gold and silver and the temple treasury.
Then, in 70 AD, Titus invaded Jerusalem, torched the city, and the temple. The fire got so hot it melted the gold that lined the temple walls. It melted down in between the stones, and the Roman army disassembled all those stones to get the gold.

All this is historically documented.

Very convenient. So, Israel was poor, then got super wealthy, then poor again, with "super wealthy" part just disappearing. "Trust me bro" is proof of Israel's wealth. Well, perhaps the Crusaders destroyed alll evidence that is crucial to confirm the Quoran?

Read more. Not to win any arguments, but to see, and understand what happened and why.

Israel seriously screwed the pooch, and God did exactly what he said he would. Deuteronomy 27-28.
Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Isaiah, Matthew 24-25.

It's all there.

So Israel screwed up worse than the Egyptians who had experienced God's destruction of all their first borns, much of their cattle, their Pharaoh and his army. And all of this without a blip in Archeology. And Israel screwed up worse than the Romans? The Romans who desecrated the Temple?

 

[SteveB]

Very convenient.

I don't see it as convenient at all!
YHVH warned them about it.
he promised them the creme de la creme. All he asked was that they kept his commandments and didn't worship false gods.
They didn't JUST ignore him, they flaunted their disobedience and then killed the people whom God sent to warn them.
His warnings lasted for 1000 years.
in their exile, they lost everything. Jewish people were slaughtered, brutally murdered by the invaders, those who survived were imprisoned and turned into slaves.
so.... if you actually find that convenient.... you have a seriously twisted version of convenient.

So, Israel was poor, then got super wealthy, then poor again, with "super wealthy" part just disappearing.

Disappearing?
nope. It was taken by invading governments and absorbed into their civilizations.
Babylon was subsequently invaded by the Medes and Persians, which was taken over by the Persians. I wouldn't be the least but surprised if Iran has some of it buried in their antiquities.

"Trust me bro" is proof of Israel's wealth.

not at all. You're more than welcome to study history. In fact, why don't you go visit Iran, and talk to them about it.
they're presently pretty big on their abject disgust and loathing of Israel.

Well, perhaps the Crusaders destroyed alll evidence that is crucial to confirm the Quoran?

i wouldn't know.
did you need them to?

So Israel screwed up worse than the Egyptians who had experienced God's destruction of all their first borns, much of their cattle, their Pharaoh and his army.

that is what the Bible says.
read it for yourself.

And all of this without a blip in Archeology.

You've never actually studied this have you?

And Israel screwed up worse than the Romans? The Romans who desecrated the Temple?

YHVH did say he'd destroy the people who injure his people.
Genesis 12:3.

It's about the level of knowledge of YHVH.

You have to study to learn for yourself.