Steve Tassi - Rom. 9 non-debate

Hal Chaffee of Lake City (Florida) Church, of the Assemblies of God holds to Flom’s erroneous view as well.

It's last days false teachers trying to get cute with doctrine, yet they are clueless.
 
Of course not, it is all in man's ability according to him.

I take the above statement along with his other statement "not some irresistible force" https://forums.carm.org/threads/free-willers-are-often-cheaters.17625/page-23#post-1408345 as mockery of the work of the Spirit, and it being transcended and supplanted by his false teachings of man's magical ability.

That is what @fltom favors, man's ability while he makes a mockery of the work of God. He is heretical and cannot see it, even with all of his "abilities."
He will pay for all those loose words he spouts.
 
It's last days false teachers trying to get cute with doctrine, yet they are clueless.
They do not believe in the sufficiency of scripture. They preach a message then ask/beg ppl to come forward. If you have to coax someone(s) to come forward, you have just sawed the legs off of your sermon. Preach the word and get out the way. It is sufficient to save. No coaxing, no theatrics, no begging and/or pleading, just preach the word.
 
You deny the efficacy of the cross. You are the epitome of an enemy of Christ and His cross. You are the same exact grounds atheists and agnostics trod upon. Good bye and may God be merciful to you and grant you faith and repentance before you die.
sorry that is false as well

It provides remission of sin and salvation for those who trust in it and the crucified one

allow me quote the Calvinist theologian WGT Shedd

Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners

William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology (ed. Alan W. Gomes; 3rd ed.; Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.

Atonement without faith does not remit sin
 
Of course not, it is all in man's ability according to him.
If you were not blind to scripture you would have seen

Romans 11:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

but it is not scripture that moves you


I take the above statement along with his other statement "not some irresistible force" https://forums.carm.org/threads/free-willers-are-often-cheaters.17625/page-23#post-1408345 as mockery of the work of the Spirit, and it being transcended and supplanted by his false teachings of man's magical ability.

That is what @fltom favors, man's ability while he makes a mockery of the work of God. He is heretical and cannot see it, even with all of his "abilities."
You have shown yourself an incompetent handler of the word of God so what you think is heretical is worthless along with your comments and what you take to be the case

Seeing as you are too blind to see it is your doctrine being addressed and not the work of the Spirit
 
sorry that is false as well

It provides remission of sin and salvation for those who trust in it and the crucified one

allow me quote the Calvinist theologian WGT Shedd

Vicarious atonement without faith in it is powerless to save. It is not the making of this atonement, but the trusting in it, that saves the sinner: “By faith are you saved” (Eph. 2:8); “he that believes shall be saved” (Mark 16:16). The making of this atonement merely satisfies the legal claims, and this is all that it does. If it were made but never imputed and appropriated, it would result in no salvation. A substituted satisfaction of justice without an act of trust in it would be useless to sinners

William Greenough Thayer Shedd, Dogmatic Theology (ed. Alan W. Gomes; 3rd ed.; Phillipsburg, NJ: P & R Pub., 2003), 726.

Atonement without faith does not remit sin
The cross provides an ACTUAL salvation not a potential one. You're drowning in the Tiber, Flom.

#Glub
 
If you were not blind to scripture you would have seen

Romans 11:23 (KJV 1900) — 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

but it is not scripture that moves you



You have shown yourself an incompetent handler of the word of God so what you think is heretical is worthless along with your comments and what you take to be the case

Seeing as you are too blind to see it is your doctrine being addressed and not the work of the Spirit
You tell'em Leighton, Jr!!!!
 
They do not believe in the sufficiency of scripture. They preach a message then ask/beg ppl to come forward. If you have to coax someone(s) to come forward, you have just sawed the legs off of your sermon. Preach the word and get out the way. It is sufficient to save. No coaxing, no theatrics, no begging and/or pleading, just preach the word.
If any have shown they do not believe in the sufficiency of scripture it would have to be you Calvinists here.

Not only do you not address scriptural rebuttal but you contradict scripture
 
Wow...
Talk about a dumpster fire in a train wreck.
I know it was 7 years ago, but I can't remember if I saw it before, and I was intrigued by the RFG intro where Tassi is accusing White of being a Molinist.

Tassi: "You need to realize that he's gone from predeterminism, now he's speaking of some kind of middle knowledge, and now has to -"​
White: "I deny, and categorically deny, middle knowledge."​
Tassi: "Then don't beg the question that would, uh, demand me to force you to, uh, embrace it."

Huh?!

The day before the debate, James found a video of Tassi attacking Calvinism (with incredibly poor arguments, IMO), and decided to make a video about them, addressing them so that hopefully Tassi would avoid such poor argumentation, and the end result might be a far better debate (since historically, Arminians don't do well debating Rom. 9). Well, I can understand Tassi's annoyance, since it was the day before, and that didn't leave a lot of time to modify his presentations (not that he would have, IMO).

So after James' 20 minute opening statement, Tassi spent 20 minutes playing the victim, complaining that White was trying to sabotage the debate, and calling White every name under the sun. He also apparenlty wanted to let the audience know how many names of logical fallacies he knew, as he had an excuse for everything (as he spent the entire 20 minutes personally attacking and insulting White, instead of addressing Rom. 9).

The rest of the debate didn't go much better for Tassi. During the cross-ex, Tassi couldn't give straight answers for what any Scripture (eg. John 6:44) meant, only what it "cannot" mean. He did the same for the audience Q&A at the end.

It made me wonder how much education and background Tassi had. It turns out that Calvary Chapel apparently only requires a 1-year study in their in-house seminary before becoming CC pastors. But at least he knew how to look up and pronounce Greek words (ooh! We're all impressed!)

He clearly didn't have an adequate understanding of Calvinism. He mentioned the WCF and LBCF, as well as Geisler's book, White's response book, and White's and Hunt's "debate" book. So I'm guessing he's never read any irenic presentations of Calvinism, such as the Institutes, or Boettner's book, or something like that.

He showed nothing but contempt and disrespect for Calvinists, both in his presentation to his congregation that James was responding to, but also in the debate itself. And while he falsely accused White of not thinking he was a Christian since he wasn't a Calvinist, he feigned appreciation that James kept calling him, "brother Tassi". Newsflash, James wouldn't call you that if he didn't consider you his brother in Christ.
I agree. It's tough to listen to. Those guy should never be in the room with a debate stage again. And as far as I know he hasnt.
 
Hal Chaffee of Lake City (Florida) Church, of the Assemblies of God holds to Flom’s erroneous view as well.

Lets see what he stated

Before I get into this, I want to be clear. Jesus most definitely died for our sins so that we can be forgiven, escape judgment, and receive everlasting life. There’s a heaven to gain and a hell to shun. Only by faith in the cross of Christ can a person be saved. There is no hope apart from Him.

Now don’t think that I just contradicted myself. You may have (like me) always assumed that Jesus dying for sins and Jesus paying for sins is the same thing. But it’s not. And there is an important distinction.

It’s commonly taught that when we sin we incur a debt against God, much in the same way that someone may incur a financial debt. The wages of sin is death and the only way that the sin debt can be paid is by death. All this is true. It’s very similar to how someone must pay for a crime. Justice demands that criminals be punished. The Bible says that ‘the soul who sins shall die.’ But we also believe that Jesus came to save us from this death. And He did. Many people maintain that He did this by literally paying the debt of our sin. That is, that He suffered and died in such a way as to zero out our sin debt against God, much in the same way that someone might pay off a financial debt. But is that what really happened? I would argue no. Here are the reasons:

1 – First of all, I can find no scripture that emphatically states that Jesus paid for our sins in this fashion. Such an important, foundational doctrine should be crystal clear in the scriptures. But it’s not. You’ll find that Jesus bore our sin, became a curse for us, redeemed us, purchased us with His blood, etc., but not that He paid for our sin. Like I said, this is an important distinction. Jesus did pay a price for us, as I will explain further, but there’s no evidence that our sin debt was that price. *

2 – The Bible in all places teaches forgiveness of sins, not payment for sins. There’s a difference.

Think about it. Is there not a difference between someone forgiving a debt and someone paying a debt? If you owed someone a lot of money and a third party paid that debt, what need is there for forgiveness? The debt is paid. You’d be thankful that the debt was paid, but you wouldn’t need forgiveness. However, if you owed someone money and that person canceled the debt, that would be forgiveness. See the difference?

and the response refuting what he stated


?????
 
They do not believe in the sufficiency of scripture. They preach a message then ask/beg ppl to come forward. If you have to coax someone(s) to come forward, you have just sawed the legs off of your sermon. Preach the word and get out the way. It is sufficient to save. No coaxing, no theatrics, no begging and/or pleading, just preach the word.
Yep.

1 Corinthians 6:20 also refutes their heresy of no payment being made. It correlates with 1 Peter 1:18.

Christ took our sins upon Himself, and paid for them with His own life and blood. Sin comes with a debt owed to God, Matthew 6:12, and it comes with wages due to us; Romans 6:23. Jesus clearly received the wages due us, which was death. Thus He paid the ultimate price for our sins; Isaiah 53.

I found an interesting article from an anti-Pauline who attacks Paul for this doctrine of wages and debt.
 
It’s all they‘ve got.
I can just see flom waiting for the next new thing that Flower's teaches so he can rush over here and parrot what was said.

"OH!!!!!!! They are Manicheans!!!!!!! Gnostics!!!!!!! OH!!!!! I never knew that!!!!!!!! OH, this is so juicy!!!!!!!" :rolleyes:

It is interesting watching their new takes on Scripture, and that they think (flom and flowers) they've come along and have proven not one thing Calvinism teaches is true.

They're delusional.
 
I can just see flom waiting for the next new thing that Flower's teaches so he can rush over here and parrot what was said.

"OH!!!!!!! They are Manicheans!!!!!!! Gnostics!!!!!!! OH!!!!! I never knew that!!!!!!!! OH, this is so juicy!!!!!!!" :rolleyes:

It is interesting watching their new takes on Scripture, and that they think (flom and flowers) they've come along and have proven not one thing Calvinism teaches is true.

They're delusional.
Still more low to no effort failure to actually address any scriptural argument
 
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