The Alpha and Omega- God

civic

Well-known member
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty !



These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty


Revelation 1:17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:


We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ.


Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.


Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."



We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20

16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.



The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),

Daniel 7:13-14

And behold, with the clouds of heaven
One like a Son of Man was coming,
And He came up to the Ancient of Days
And was presented before Him.
14 "And to Him was given dominion,
Glory and a kingdom,
That all the peoples, nations and men of every language
Might serve Him.
His dominion is an everlasting dominion
Which will not pass away;
And His kingdom is one
Which will not be destroyed.

Matthew 24:30-31
30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!


Isaiah 44:6
Thus says the Lord, the King of Israel
And his Redeemer, the Lord of hosts:
'I am the first and I am the last,

And there is no God besides Me.


Isaiah 48:12
"Listen to Me, O Jacob, even Israel whom I called;

I am He, I am the first, I am also the last.



hope this helps !!!
 
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CrowCross

Well-known member
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty !



These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty
I'll have to sit back and see what the divinity strippers do with this (these) verses. See what kind of twist they have in store for us.
 

Yahchristian

Well-known member
I'll have to sit back and see what the divinity strippers do with this (these) verses. See what kind of twist they have in store for us.

Me too. In addition...

I'll have to sit back and see what the principle of divinity strippers do with this (these) verses. See what kind of twist they have in store for us.

There seems to be three basic views on this forum...
A) Divinity did NOT manifest in the flesh as Jesus.
B) The principle of Divinity did NOT manifest in the flesh as Jesus.
C) The principle of Divinity DID manifest in the flesh as Jesus.

I believe C.
 

CrowCross

Well-known member
Me too. In addition...

I'll have to sit back and see what the principle of divinity strippers do with this (these) verses. See what kind of twist they have in store for us.

There seems to be three basic views on this forum...
A) Divinity did NOT manifest in the flesh as Jesus.
B) The principle of Divinity did NOT manifest in the flesh as Jesus.
C) The principle of Divinity DID manifest in the flesh as Jesus.

I believe C.
What is meant by "principles" of divinity?
 

CrowCross

Well-known member

101G

Well-known member
GREAT topic,

I commend the OP. may I add also, Jesus is "GOD" as the mighty God, The everlasting Father, the Alpha and Omega.

he is identified as such in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." in the original hebrew language, there are two letters, not a word, but two untranslated letters that give us great inside revelation of the Lord Jesus as the "Father" also, which I teach always.
these two letters correspond in Hebrew to the Greek ,Alpha and Omega and they are the אֵ ת Aleph and the Tav from right to left. this translation can be found at Hebrew Interlinear Bible (OT), https://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/gen1.pdf

the Aleph correspond also to "FIRST", as well as "Beginning", being it's the First letter of the Hebrew Alphabet.

and the Tav corrspond also to "LAST", as well as "End", being it's the Last letter of the Hebrew Alphabet.

so right there in the very first verse of the bible we have God who is the First and the Last, the Beginning, and the End, and the Alpha and Omega as the topic states.

So right at the beginning, the bible tells us who JESUS is.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

jamesh

Active member
To you 101G what is your take on the title "Everlasting Father?" Just asking for clarity? Thank You!

IN GOD THE SON,
james
 

101G

Well-known member
To you 101G what is your take on the title "Everlasting Father?" Just asking for clarity? Thank You!

IN GOD THE SON,
james
JUST WHAT THE BIBLE STATES, that son "GIVEN" in Isaiah 9:6 is the everlasting Father. not some future tense prophecy, no, because the Holy Spirit, "JESUS", hold both titles Father, and Son, as the Ordinal First/Father, and the ordinal Last/Son. all the bible scriptures revolves around this understanding of God as the ECHAD of himself in flesh.

see in Hebrews 1:8 it states, "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom."

two terms here to understand, "O God", here the definite article is used of the Son, and the designation, "for ever and ever, describe his "EVERLASTING" as Father in the ECHAD, here in Hebrews. but 1 Timothy 6:16 certify what was said in Isaiah 9:6, "Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen."

and "ONLY" is exclusive, meaning NO OTHER, so he alone, JESUS the Holy Spirit is the EVERLASTING FATHER.


YOU CAN READ MY POST ON THIS IN THE ONENESS FOURM, "God did not become the Last Adam", https://forums.carm.org/threads/god-did-not-become-the-last-adam.25/post-299847

and thanks for the question. be blessed.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Stephen

Active member
Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty

It is fascinating that a passage that directly declares that Jesus and God are two separate persons is selectively chopped up in order to support the twisted reasoning that Jesus is his own god and father. And then to compound the evil, the cheerleading squad disrespected their bible to such a large degree that they didn't read the passage to verify the OPs claims.

Let's actually read the passage and identify the persons:

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place (The first sentence identifies Jesus and God as separate persons directly contradicting the OP's doctrine. No wonder the OP left it out). He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: (Here John is speaking. You can tell because it says John is speaking)

Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him (Jesus) who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, (Notice that Jesus has a god and that god is his father, directly contradicting the OP's doctrine. No wonder the OP left it out) to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. ("Amen", signifying the closure of the thought and a new speaker is introduced)
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Now, the person identified as God speaks. You can tell because it directly says God is speaking)


Or I suppose you can believe that Jesus is his own god and father, but please don't pretend the bible says such foolish things.
 

civic

Well-known member
It is fascinating that a passage that directly declares that Jesus and God are two separate persons is selectively chopped up in order to support the twisted reasoning that Jesus is his own god and father. And then to compound the evil, the cheerleading squad disrespected their bible to such a large degree that they didn't read the passage to verify the OPs claims.

Let's actually read the passage and identify the persons:

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place (The first sentence identifies Jesus and God as separate persons directly contradicting the OP's doctrine. No wonder the OP left it out). He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.
4 John to the seven churches that are in Asia: (Here John is speaking. You can tell because it says John is speaking)

Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth.
To him (Jesus) who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, (Notice that Jesus has a god and that god is his father, directly contradicting the OP's doctrine. No wonder the OP left it out) to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. 7 Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen. ("Amen", signifying the closure of the thought and a new speaker is introduced)
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (Now, the person identified as God speaks. You can tell because it directly says God is speaking)


Or I suppose you can believe that Jesus is his own god and father, but please don't pretend the bible says such foolish things.
Jesus is not his own father . The Father and Son are both referred to as God in numerous places in Scripture and they share the same Divine attributes as God.

hope this helps !!!
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the Lord God Almighty !



These passages in Revelation make it clear that Jesus is God. Remember it is Jesus in the NT who is Coming back to earth that every eye will see. It was Jesus who was pierced on the cross for our sins. John is clearly once again calling Jesus God!!!!!!! The Coming and the coming in the clouds never refers to the Father in the NT but always to Jesus.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


We know from Revelation 1:8 that Alpha and Omega is the Almighty. So we can see that Christ is the Almighty


Revelation 1:17And when I saw Him, I fell at his feet as dead. And He laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I Am the first and the last:


We know from Revelation 1:17-18 that the first and the last is He that lives, was dead but is alive forevermore is Christ.


Revelation 2:8
"To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.


Revelation 22:12-13
12 "Behold, I Am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done. 13 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end."



We know from Revelation 22:13 that the first and the last is the Alpha and Omega.

Revelation 22:16,20

16 "I, Jesus, have sent My angel to testify to you these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star."

20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I Am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.



The immediate text clearly tells us that it was Jesus who was pierced and who is Coming in the clouds. This person coming in the clouds is God(Jesus-the Son of Man),



Matthew 24:30-31

30 "And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the SON OF MAN COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF THE SKY with power and great glory.

Matthew 26:64
Jesus said to him, "You have said it yourself; nevertheless I tell you, hereafter you will see THE SON OF MAN SITTING AT THE RIGHT HAND OF POWER, and COMING ON THE CLOUDS OF HEAVEN."

1 Thessalonians 4:17-18

Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Revelation 1:7-8
7 BEHOLD, HE IS COMING WITH THE CLOUDS, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the earth will mourn over Him. So it is to be. Amen.
8 "I Am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."


So we can see that the One who comes/is coming in the NT always refers to Jesus the Son of Man and NEVER refers to the Father. Therefore we can conclude it is Jesus who is coming whom John calls God the Alpha and Omega. This is sound biblical exegesis based on the context of the passage as well as the principle established in both Testaments on the One who is Coming in/with the Clouds- The Son of Man not the Father !!!!!!
For starters, your first statement is false, for Jesus is the perpetual Temple of Yahweh God and therefore when Jesus returns, Yahweh will be dwelling within him in all of his fullness and therefore Yahweh will be coming also within the Son.

Indeed in Revelation 1:7 John is speaking of Jesus returning but verse 8 is Yahweh speaking and revealing that when Jesus returns, Yahweh will be coming also, for Jesus is the Temple of Yahweh God who dwells within Jesus.

Concerning Revelation 1:8, not in your life Civic and if you read the first verses of Revelation one, you will see that the revelation was Yahweh's and Yahweh gave it to Jesus to give to us and Jesus sent his angel to deliver it and therefore on occasions Jesus will be speaking and on other occasions, Yahweh will be speaking and the angel will be communicating all of it for both Yahweh and Jesus.

Therefore Revelation 1:8 does not reveal that Jesus is God.

Furthermore, both the Father and Son are called by the synonyms "first and last, alpha and omega and beginning and end but for totally different reasons and first and last in and of itself is not a title for God alone but only when it is used in context that way.

For instance, in Isaiah 44:6, God is using this term "first and last" not to express that he is the only one who can be a first and last but that he is the Only God (none coming before him and none coming after him) and which is what the term is being used to express in this context and Isaiah 43:10 reveals that this is what it means also.

Isaiah 43:10

10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed (First),
nor will there be one after me (Last).



However, in Revelation 1:17-18, Jesus never uses this term to express that he is God, for God is not mortal and neither indeed can be either and Paul in Romans 1:21-23.


Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.


In the above Paul makes is clear that God cannot be compared to a human being, because human beings are mortal and can therefore die just like Jesus also died.

Therefore in Revelation 1:17-18 there is no way that Jesus is using the term first and last to express that he is God, for he never says this but instead he very clearly tells us that he was alive and became dead but now lives forever more and which made him a mortal and God is not mortal and neither can he be either.

So in what way then is Jesus using the term, "first and last" in Revelation 1:17-18?

He is obviously using it to express that he alone is the Messiah who was alive and died for our sins and rose again to receive the keys of death and Hell to save all men who will believe the gospel from death and hell, first and last, no one ever before him and no one coming after him, but he alone is the Messiah sent by God.

In John 14:6-10 Jesus clearly told us that when we see him we see the Father also and the reason that he gave for this, wasn't because he was a second person of God's being or equal unto God but rather because the Father was dwelling within him and manifesting himself through Jesus and once again being Jesu was the Temple of Yahweh God.

John 14:10 "Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, the words that I speak, I speak not of myself, it is the Father who is dwelling within me, he is doing the works".

Colossians 1:15 "who is the image of the invisible God"


Revelation 22:13-14 is the angel communicating for both the Father and the Son, for when the Son returns, likewise so will the Father be with him and both are first and last and alpha and omega and beginning and end, the Father as The Only True God and the Son as the Christ whom he has sent and as also per John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20.


Beware of this fact also Civic, for in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 God revealed to Paul that he would send a strong delusion to all who do not love the truth and that delusion is right in the words of the scriptures for all those who attempt to understand it from their flesh, for God has allowed for that within the scriptures and that is why one has to be led of the Holy Spirit instead of their own mind.



John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they might know you (Father) The Only True God and Jesus the Christ whom you have sent".


John 5:26, "For just as The Father has life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also".


John 6:57, "For just as The Living Father (The Living God) has sent me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats of me shall live because of me".





Notice especially in John 6:57 the words "just as and so", for Jesus is clearly telling us that in the same way as he lives because of the Father, so will we live because of him if we receive his body and blood as our atonement for our sins.

Did you get that Civic "just as" and which means that Jesus isn't God but lives because God gave him his life and just as he will give us eternal life also if we received his sacrifice and death for our sins.
 

civic

Well-known member
For starters, your first statement is false, for Jesus is the perpetual Temple of Yahweh God and therefore when Jesus returns, Yahweh will be dwelling within him in all of his fullness and therefore Yahweh will be coming also within the Son.

Indeed in Revelation 1:7 John is speaking of Jesus returning but verse 8 is Yahweh speaking and revealing that when Jesus returns, Yahweh will be coming also, for Jesus is the Temple of Yahweh God who dwells within Jesus.

Concerning Revelation 1:8, not in your life Civic and if you read the first verses of Revelation one, you will see that the revelation was Yahweh's and Yahweh gave it to Jesus to give to us and Jesus sent his angel to deliver it and therefore on occasions Jesus will be speaking and on other occasions, Yahweh will be speaking and the angel will be communicating all of it for both Yahweh and Jesus.

Therefore Revelation 1:8 does not reveal that Jesus is God.

Furthermore, both the Father and Son are called by the synonyms "first and last, alpha and omega and beginning and end but for totally different reasons and first and last in and of itself is not a title for God alone but only when it is used in context that way.

For instance, in Isaiah 44:6, God is using this term "first and last" not to express that he is the only one who can be a first and last but that he is the Only God (none coming before him and none coming after him) and which is what the term is being used to express in this context and Isaiah 43:10 reveals that this is what it means also.

Isaiah 43:10

10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord,
“and my servant whom I have chosen,
so that you may know and believe me
and understand that I am he.
Before me no god was formed (First),
nor will there be one after me (Last).



However, in Revelation 1:17-18, Jesus never uses this term to express that he is God, for God is not mortal and neither indeed can be either and Paul in Romans 1:21-23.


Romans 1:21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.


In the above Paul makes is clear that God cannot be compared to a human being, because human beings are mortal and can therefore die just like Jesus also died.

Therefore in Revelation 1:17-18 there is no way that Jesus is using the term first and last to express that he is God, for he never says this but instead he very clearly tells us that he was alive and became dead but now lives forever more and which made him a mortal and God is not mortal and neither can he be either.

So in what way then is Jesus using the term, "first and last" in Revelation 1:17-18?

He is obviously using it to express that he alone is the Messiah who was alive and died for our sins and rose again to receive the keys of death and Hell to save all men who will believe the gospel from death and hell, first and last, no one ever before him and no one coming after him, but he alone is the Messiah sent by God.

In John 14:6-10 Jesus clearly told us that when we see him we see the Father also and the reason that he gave for this, wasn't because he was a second person of God's being or equal unto God but rather because the Father was dwelling within him and manifesting himself through Jesus and once again being Jesu was the Temple of Yahweh God.

John 14:10 "Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, the words that I speak, I speak not of myself, it is the Father who is dwelling within me, he is doing the works".

Colossians 1:15 "who is the image of the invisible God"


Revelation 22:13-14 is the angel communicating for both the Father and the Son, for when the Son returns, likewise so will the Father be with him and both are first and last and alpha and omega and beginning and end, the Father as The Only True God and the Son as the Christ whom he has sent and as also per John 17:3 and 1 John 5:20.


Beware of this fact also Civic, for in 2 Thessalonians 2:11 God revealed to Paul that he would send a strong delusion to all who do not love the truth and that delusion is right in the words of the scriptures for all those who attempt to understand it from their flesh, for God has allowed for that within the scriptures and that is why one has to be led of the Holy Spirit instead of their own mind.



John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they might know you (Father) The Only True God and Jesus the Christ whom you have sent".


John 5:26, "For just as The Father has life in himself, so he has given unto the Son to have life in himself also".


John 6:57, "For just as The Living Father (The Living God) has sent me and I live because of the Father, so he who eats of me shall live because of me".





Notice especially in John 6:57 the words "just as and so", for Jesus is clearly telling us that in the same way as he lives because of the Father, so will we live because of him if we receive his body and blood as our atonement for our sins.

Did you get that Civic "just as" and which means that Jesus isn't God but lives because God gave him his life and just as he will give us eternal life also if we received his sacrifice and death for our sins.
Wrong nowhere in all of scripture does it once say that the Father is returning. It’s always the Son who is parousia and epiphenia. Do your homework as I have done and let the truth speak to you instead of your doctrinal bias.
 

Yahweh will increase

Well-known member
Wrong nowhere in all of scripture does it once say that the Father is returning. It’s always the Son who is parousia and epiphenia. Do your homework as I have done and let the truth speak to you instead of your doctrinal bias.
It doesn't have to, for first, the Bible does say that God is coming and Jesus himself identified the Father as The Only True God in John 17:3.

Furthermore, the Father is in the Son and they are now inseparable together in his single glorified body.

John 14:10 "Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, the words that I speak unto you, I speak not of myself but it is the Father who dwells within me, he is doing the works".

By the way, when are you ever going to address the fact that if Jesus has always been God with the name Yahweh which has always been above every name, then Paul's words in Philippians 2:9 make absolutely no sense at all?

For Paul says that Jesus is given a name above every name as a reward because of his obedience unto death and not because he is God.

If he has always been God like you falsely believe Civic, then he always had a name above every name and which is the name Yahweh!!!!!
 
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101G

Well-known member
Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place (The first sentence identifies Jesus and God as separate persons directly contradicting the OP's doctrine. No wonder the OP left it out).
first thanks for your reply, but you ERROR, Revelation 1:1 is ONE PERSON, and NOT TWO, listen and Learn, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" here the "ECHAD" of God is clearly seen and now understood. it is only ONE PERSON who is in Revelation 1:1, let prove it out..........

in Revelation 1:1 it states, "one sent his angel to John correct?", the angel tells us who sent him, listen, Revelation 22:6 "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

here clearly the angel states it was the "Lord God" of the Holy prophets who sent him. so now the question, who is the "Lord God" ... of the "holy prophets". is it A. the Father, or B. the Son?

so @Stephen, who is it A. or B. then we will get to verses 4 & 5.

your answer PLEASE.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Stephen

Active member
first thanks for your reply, but you ERROR, Revelation 1:1 is ONE PERSON, and NOT TWO,

Let's read the sentence

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ (Person A), which God (Person B) gave him (Person A) to show to his (Either Person A's or Person B's) servants the things that must soon take place

Yours is a bold claim and not supported by the text.


listen and Learn, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:" here the "ECHAD" of God is clearly seen and now understood. it is only ONE PERSON who is in Revelation 1:1, let prove it out..........

in Revelation 1:1 it states, "one sent his angel to John correct?", the angel tells us who sent him, listen, Revelation 22:6 "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done."

here clearly the angel states it was the "Lord God" of the Holy prophets who sent him. so now the question, who is the "Lord God" ... of the "holy prophets". is it A. the Father, or B. the Son?

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Revelation 1:1 is ambiguous about whose angel is sent to John.

Revelation 22:6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”

In Revelation 22:6, the angel who poured out one of the 7 bowl judgments makes clear who he is sent from.


To answer your question: The Lord God is Jesus Christ's God, and his Father. You can tell because John actually says that:

Revelation 1:5 ....To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood (Jesus) 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
 

101G

Well-known member
Let's read the sentence

Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ (Person A), which God (Person B) gave him (Person A) to show to his (Either Person A's or Person B's) servants the things that must soon take place

Yours is a bold claim and not supported by the text.




Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,

Revelation 1:1 is ambiguous about whose angel is sent to John.

Revelation 22:6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.”

In Revelation 22:6, the angel who poured out one of the 7 bowl judgments makes clear who he is sent from.


To answer your question: The Lord God is Jesus Christ's God, and his Father. You can tell because John actually says that:

Revelation 1:5 ....To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood (Jesus) 6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Again you ERROR, yes JESUS is the Lord GOD of the Holy Prophets, but he is God, listen, Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;"
Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"
Revelation 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.
so Amen."

so Stephen, is this letter from THREE person, or "ONE", person, we say ONE person, but...

#1."from him which is, and which was, and which is to come". is this the Father?

#2. "and from the seven Spirits". is this the Holy Spirit?

#3. "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness,", a give me, the son?

is this your three persons? yes or no.

REMEMBER, the "Lord Jesus is the .... "Lord God " of the holy Prophets ... (smile).

your answer please.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

101G

Well-known member
@Stephen, let us help you out a bit,

#1. him, “which is, and which was, and which is to come". is this the Lord Jesus?.

Evidence #1. Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty”. So the “which is, and which was, and which is to come” is A. the Almighty, B. the Alpha and the Omega, and C. the Lord.

Evidence #2. Revelation 4:8 "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which is, and which was, and which is to come”. Again the which is, and which was, and which is to come is the Lord God Almighty.

Evidence #3. Revelation 11:17 "Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned".

So clearly we see that him, “which art, and wast, and art to come“, is the Lord God Almighty.

now we ask, "WHO is the Almighty?". lets see, Genesis 17:1 "And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect."

HOLD it, the "LORD", all caps is the Almighty? but is not the "Lord" the Almighty? ... well either the LORD and the Lord is the same one person, else one have two "ALMIGHTIES", and that's anti bible, that's polytheism at it's best.

well one person down, JESUS is the HIM, "which is, and which was, and which is to come".

now you have the "Seven Spirits".... left, because the "which is, and which was, and which is to come" is the the Lord Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness in verse 5, the Almighty.


#2. him, the “Seven Spirits”. is this the Lord Jesus also?

Evidence #1. Revelation 3:1 "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead”.
We know that this is the Lord Jesus, the "he", who is addressing the church in Sardis, and he, the “Lord” Jesus said that he has the “Seven Spirits”.

Evidence #2. Revelation 5:6 "And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth”. BINGO, “which are the seven Spirits of God ”. so it is the Lord JESU?S. YES, for he stood/resurrected. John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." WITH THINE OWNSELF? yes, "SPIRIT". HOW DO WE KNOW THIS, because evey letter ends this way, "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches" so the seven Spirits of God is the Lord Jesus.

Evidence #3. the one who have the seven Spirits is the Same one who is the First and the Last,
Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:
Revelation 1:18 "I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death". the omly one who was dead and live evermore is JESUS.
Revelation 1:19 "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;"
Revelation 1:20 "The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches."
BINGO, the one who had the seven stars is the same one who has the seven Spirits, Revelation 3:1 "And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead”.

So the the one who have the seven Spirit is the First and the Last who is the Lord God Almighty.
Revelation 22:13 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last”. who is the “First & Last?”, the Lord God Almighty. BINGO, that confirm who is the Lord God Almighty is, JESUS.

another person eliminated, the Seven Spirits,

And lastly, “the true witness”, that’s a no brainier, a give me. The Lord Jesus.

The only person who is the central theme of this book is the Lord Jesus, who is the Spirit, God almighty, and God is a Spirit (John 4:24a). so no and I again say, NO "THREE" PERSON here, what's not here is three seperate and distinct persons. THIS IS NOT ME, BUT THE BIBLE.

and no it's not two persons in Revelation 1:1..... didn't you read... "and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John"

signified, meaning it's symbolic, it's in language only God can decipher for you.... this is why we have the Holy Ghost.

see it was the Spirit, GOD one person, in the ECHAD speaking to the seven churches. which comfirm the one person in verse 1.

your assessment, "Revelation 1:1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants the things that must soon take place (The first sentence identifies Jesus and God as separate persons directly contradicting the OP's doctrine. No wonder the OP left it out).

and this, (Notice that Jesus has a god and that god is his father, directly contradicting the OP's doctrine. No wonder the OP left it out) "


well I'm glad the OP left that out... (smile). but this is what happens when ONE do not understand the "ECHAD" of God or the "diversity", of God as the
A. the ROOT and the OFFSPRING, of God
B. the Alpha and the Omega, of God
C. the first and the Last, of God
D. the Beginning, and the End, of God
E. the Lord, and the Lord, of God
F. the Father, and the Son, of God

WHO IS THE "HOLY SPIRIT", THAT IS GOD.

PICJAG, 101G.
 

Stephen

Active member
Again you ERROR, yes JESUS is the Lord GOD of the Holy Prophets, but he is God, listen, Revelation 1:4 "John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;"
Revelation 1:5 "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,"
Revelation 1:6 "And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever.
so Amen."

so Stephen, is this letter from THREE person, or "ONE", person, we say ONE person, but...

#1."from him which is, and which was, and which is to come". is this the Father?

#2. "and from the seven Spirits". is this the Holy Spirit?

#3. "And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness,", a give me, the son?

is this your three persons? yes or no.

My math comes to 9.


REMEMBER, the "Lord Jesus is the .... "Lord God " of the holy Prophets ... (smile).

I'm not following.
 
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