The cross is not about punishment and wrath. The cross is a test.

[Charles R]

The cross was a test of Jesus Christ's obedience, devotion, and love for the Father.

Jesus passed the test, and delighted the Father.

The Father then rewarded the Son with a kingdom, a throne, and all power and authority in heaven and on earth.

Jesus then uses that power and authority to save, deliver, abolish death, judge, and set all things right.

That's the gospel. That's the good news.

See more here: https://www.academia.edu/34689178/Introduction_to_Christus_Victor_docx

 

[Stephen]

I'm not sure how what you propose works with the doctrine of the trinity, but that is for others to muddle through as I reject that particular doctrine.

I agree that what happened on the cross wasn't about punishment and wrath. As the bible speaks of the cross it lends credence to what you are proposing:

Hebrews 2:10 In bringing many sons and daughters to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through what he suffered. ​

​

Hebrews 5:8 Son though he was, he learned obedience from what he suffered 9 and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for all who obey him ​

God loves the world and sent his son and the cross had some measure of impact on him. I don't think the cross was 100% Christus Victor, but it was a big part of what happened on the cross.


Your point number 6 is interesting:

6) In PSA, you wonder what role the resurrection of Christ plays in man’s salvation, for man is saved when Christ dies as a substitute by taking the punishment of God upon Himself. In PSA, it is the “sin guilt” or “sin debt” that is the primary problem, and Jesus Christ, in a legal sense, accepts that “sin guilt” and its punishment upon Himself. In Christus Victor, man is still in His sins(1Cor 15:17) if Jesus Christ is not raised from the dead. That is to say, man is still in the pit of sin and death and sin and death is still lording over him if Jesus Christ is not raised from the dead. In Christus Victor, a dead savior cannot save. Man needs a risen, exalted, enthroned, glorified, empowered, living Savior Who is the source of life (the bread of life, the water of life, the resurrection and the life), spirit, resurrection, righteousness, and strength and Who can give these things to whom He will.​

Maybe I would say it differently:

• If the death of Jesus pays the sin death and takes our punishment (i.e. PSA), then even if Christ died and stayed dead, the saints are still raised. This contradicts 1 Cor 15:15.
• We are not saved by Christ's death, we are saved by his life (Rom 5:10).

The point of the crucifixion of Christ was not to placate the wrath of an angry God who needed to be appeased by the blood of Crist. The point of the crucifixion of Christ was so that the blood of Christ could clean our consciences (Hebrews 9).

 

[cjab]

Jesus then uses that power and authority to save, deliver, abolish death, judge, and set all things right.

It was God who abolished death by nailing the record of our sins to the cross, together with the law, and by the nailing of Christ himself Col 2:13-14. Therefore the abolition of death happened on the cross.

The point of the crucifixion of Christ was not to placate the wrath of an angry God who needed to be appeased by the blood of Crist. The point of the crucifixion of Christ was so that the blood of Christ could clean our consciences (Hebrews 9).

I profoundly disagree.

Gal 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree".

and

Heb 9:22 "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

Clearly Paul is talking about "placating wrath" in these passages.

 

[Charles R]

It was God who abolished death by nailing the record of our sins to the cross, together with the law, and by the nailing of Christ himself Col 2:13-14. Therefore the abolition of death happened on the cross.


I profoundly disagree.

Gal 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree".

and

Heb 9:22 "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

Clearly Paul is talking about "placating wrath" in these passages.

It was on the cross that Jesus was obedient and thus earned His resurrection and exaltation. His resurrection as the firstfruit from among the dead, is what got the ball rolling until death is abolished for everyone.

An offering is a gift. Your offering to a church is your gift. The purpose of a gift is to evoke delight in the recipient. The Philippians' sacrificial monetary gifts to Paul were a delight and fragrant odor to God.(Phil 4:18) Offerings are always associated with words such as "delight," "well-pleasing," and "fragrant odor."

If someone is angry with you, then it's a good idea to present a "peace offering" which is something they will delight in, which will placate them, and move them from wrath to delight. God delights in obedience, and God delighted in the obedience of Jesus Christ which moves Him from wrath to peace and delight and that delight overflows to us.

 

[Stephen]

I profoundly disagree.

Gal 3:13 "Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree".

Read that carefully. Christ became a curse, he wasn't "accursed".

The false prophets to the Jews in Babylon became a curse (Jer 29:22) and so also with the bad figs (Jer 24:9). The effect was they endured shame and humiliation like Christ did.

It doesn't mean that there was a legal transference of a curse from man to Jesus, especially since there isn't any curse placed on man to transfer.

and

Heb 9:22 "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness."

Clearly Paul is talking about "placating wrath" in these passages.

If we read the whole verse, it is about cleansing.

22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.​

Hebrews 9:22 isn't about wrath either.

 

[cjab]

It was on the cross that Jesus was obedient and thus earned His resurrection and exaltation. His resurrection as the firstfruit from among the dead, is what got the ball rolling until death is abolished for everyone.

An offering is a gift. Your offering to a church is your gift. The purpose of a gift is to evoke delight in the recipient. The Philippians' sacrificial monetary gifts to Paul were a delight and fragrant odor to God.(Phil 4:18) Offerings are always associated with words such as "delight," "well-pleasing," and "fragrant odor."

If someone is angry with you, then it's a good idea to present a "peace offering" which is something they will delight in, which will placate them, and move them from wrath to delight. God delights in obedience, and God delighted in the obedience of Jesus Christ which moves Him from wrath to peace and delight and that delight overflows to us.

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness (Heb 9:22). But as far as what God delights in: Psalm 51:16 "[God] does not delight in sacrifice. There was a very needful reason why Christ had to be sacrificed, and to suggest "it was just to please God" is not addressing the theology behind it.

 

[cjab]

Read that carefully. Christ became a curse, he wasn't "accursed".

He was accursed in a bodily sense, but not in a spiritual sense. He was never seen as damnable, but his body was given over to death.

The false prophets to the Jews in Babylon became a curse (Jer 29:22) and so also with the bad figs (Jer 24:9). The effect was they endured shame and humiliation like Christ did.

It doesn't mean that there was a legal transference of a curse from man to Jesus, especially since there isn't any curse placed on man to transfer.

There was a curse on man: Deut 27:26, as transfered to the body of Christ.

If we read the whole verse, it is about cleansing.

22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.​

And what if the Israelites did not cleanse themselves, as they frequently did not? They were given over to wrath as per...........

Hebrews 9:22 isn't about wrath either.

.............Rom 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness."

You seem to unable to link the lack of God's forgiveness with being given over to His wrath. With forgiveness & wrath, it's an either/or scenario.

 

[Stephen]

He was accursed in a bodily sense, but not in a spiritual sense. He was never seen as damnable, but his body was given over to death.


There was a curse on man: Deut 27:26, as transfered to the body of Christ.

Deut 27:26 is quoted in the very passage under discussion (Galatians 3), and it is for a select group of people, and neither you, nor me, nor the Galatians fit into the group that should be in fear of that verse.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”​

Those not under the law and were never under the law (which is about 99% of humanity), have nothing to do with the curse you mention. Paul is specifically arguing against the idea that this curse applies to the Galatians.

And what if the Israelites did not cleanse themselves, as they frequently did not? They were given over to wrath as per...........

.............Rom 1:18 "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness."

You seem to unable to link the lack of God's forgiveness with being given over to His wrath. With forgiveness & wrath, it's an either/or scenario.

The "wrath of God" in this passage is God letting you have what you want. Pay close attention to what God's wrath is in Romans 1 :

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. ​

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.​

29 . . . God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.​

Jesus was not given over to a depraved mind, sinful desires, sexual impurity, shameful lusts, etc..... The people he was given over to may have had those problems, but Jesus did not nor did he ever have any of these problems.

 

[cjab]

Deut 27:26 is quoted in the very passage under discussion (Galatians 3), and it is for a select group of people, and neither you, nor me, nor the Galatians fit into the group that should be in fear of that verse.

10 For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”​

Those not under the law and were never under the law (which is about 99% of humanity), have nothing to do with the curse you mention. Paul is specifically arguing against the idea that this curse applies to the Galatians.

No, you're misunderstanding it. The curse no longer applied to the Galatians, because of Christ. But the curse did apply to those under the law before Christ came. And how else to be saved, but through the law. I concede the rudiments of the law didn't apply to the Gentiles, but the higher parts of the law most certainly applied to all who desired to be saved, whether Jew or Gentile.

The "wrath of God" in this passage is God letting you have what you want. Pay close attention to what God's wrath is in Romans 1 :

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. ​

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones.​

29 . . . God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.​

Jesus was not given over to a depraved mind, sinful desires, sexual impurity, shameful lusts, etc..... The people he was given over to may have had those problems, but Jesus did not nor did he ever have any of these problems.

I said Jesus was only cursed in his body. You are referring to those cursed in their souls.

 

[Charles R]

Without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness (Heb 9:22). But as far as what God delights in: Psalm 51:16 "[God] does not delight in sacrifice. There was a very needful reason why Christ had to be sacrificed, and to suggest "it was just to please God" is not addressing the theology behind it.

The "blood of Jesus" speaks to His love for the Father expressed through His obedience, devotion, and faithfulness. The delight of the Father in His obedient Son overflows to us and "covers" or "atones" for our offenses and thus it is through His blood that we have forgiveness of sins.

 

[cjab]

The "blood of Jesus" speaks to His love for the Father expressed through His obedience, devotion, and faithfulness. The delight of the Father in His obedient Son overflows to us and "covers" or "atones" for our offenses and thus it is through His blood that we have forgiveness of sins.

Completely inadequate synopsis of why Jesus had to shed his blood; and why the Father required his obedience in that particular manner.