the original Messianic Judaism?

American Gothic said:
I don't see how Paul would be viewed as priestly being a Benjamite
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You are interpreting "wicked priest" as being someone who is an aaronic priest. It is not. It is a figurative title.

As you know, the heart of the Essene movement was that they rejected teh aaronic priesthood and all the temple rites.
 
American Gothic said:
oh but they are
even the types of instruments played with certain Psalms are prophetic
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no, this is kind of "shadowing" of the future is a Chrsitian invention. It has no place in the Tanakh. It illustrates the capacity of the Chrsitian to see things where they don't exist -- a problem with Chrsitanity overall.
 
Open Heart said:
You are interpreting "wicked priest" as being someone who is an aaronic priest. It is not. It is a figurative title.

As you know, the heart of the Essene movement was that they rejected teh aaronic priesthood and all the temple rites.
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one of the guys on the High Priest list is Menelaus, possibly not Levite, maybe a Benjamite, and not legetimate
the sort of concept you are referencing is There at that time in Israel's history
 
American Gothic said:
one of the guys on the High Priest list is Menelaus, possibly not Levite, maybe a Benjamite, and not legetimate
the sort of concept you are referencing is There at that time in Israel's history
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that's a lot of maybes

Let's assume for the moment that he was a benjamite. So? It means his priesthood was corrupt. Is there something about that which involves a point you are trying to make? Cuz I'm not understanding the significance.
 
American Gothic said:
you just aren't an Essene it seems :)
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Do you see that Open Heart's position correlates with the Pharisees who opposed the Essenes, which ironically, mirrors the opposition of Christian orthodoxy to the Nassenes and Christian gnostics. History repeating itself.

From everything I have read, when you boil it all down, the difference between the former and the latter, i.e.,

Pharisees versus Essenes or
Christian orthodoxy versus gnostic Christianity,

is that the former takes the stories in the Pentateuch literally versus the latter takes them allegorically. And time has not changed a thing. (1) Orthodoxy, in general, whether it be from Jewish or Christian, and Greek paganism, probably, Indian, Buddhist, Muslim, as well, opposes any allegorical meaning to their respective scriptures.

The allegorizers of scripture, it appears world over, are always rejected by those who take scripture literally. Whereas, the allegorizes world over, find a common meaning that makes them brothers/sisters. That is what happened in the two hundred years before and after the C.E. The allegorizers (Essenes, Nassenes, Philo, Paul, etc.) were synthesizing a common meaning from each of the great religions, eg. Egyptian, Greek, Jewish, etc., resulting in a consummation with Christianity being the result, although not many Christians know about it. I hope that is about to change.

When Charles wrote his analysis of the Book of Jubilees, he concluded that whoever wrote the Book was against Hellenism because the author intended his audience to take away from the Book the eternal nature of the Pentateuch or the Law.

A case could be made for the opposite goal, that, by characterizing the Law as eternally true the author is indicating a MEANING that is applicable to our reality forever true and that MEANING can be found as the common thread in the other great religions. Simply, he was not writing a book against Hellenism but for the universality of its message found in other religions: one Good God and Father over all the nations!

------
1) "But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ (docphin: not the Gospel Jesus for the Gospels had not been written but the inner Yeshua) is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts." (2 Cor 3:13)
 
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docphin5 said:
Do you see that Open Heart's position correlates with the Pharisees who opposed the Essenes, which ironically, mirrors the opposition of Christian orthodoxy to the Nassenes and Christian gnostics. History repeating itself.

From everything I have read, when you boil it all down, the difference between the former and the latter, i.e.,

Pharisees versus Essenes or
Christian orthodoxy versus gnostic Christianity,
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I would view it as
Pharisee vs Essene leads to
Rabbinic Judaism (which I view as a continuation of Pharisaism) vs belief in Jesus as Messiah

I have limited knowledge of Gnosticism, but the theology of that seems very different
noticeably so compared to the theology of works that were put in the NT

the Book of Jubilees
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stuff like this (Jasher, Seder Olam, etc) is a part of my interest
are you aware of the Essene/Dead Sea Scroll calendar? (I haven't checked out your thread so I don't know what you are familiar with)
 
Open Heart said:
Again, I'm not sure your point. If you are simply trying to show me that corruption happens, I can assure you I am not naive.
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there are just things on the list of High Priests I find interesting

Onias 3 is murdered
his son (and would be heir) runs to Egypt (where the Qumran types allegedly first went to after being deposed)
a dude with a Hellenized name is next (Jason's Hebrew name was Yeshua, not saying connection, just that the name was around)
but he's a Zadok, the last it says
then Menelaus, possibly not even a Levite, and so not legit
then the famous Maccabeans start
from what I've been taught, they were able to reestablish a Jewish state, rededicate the Temple, etc.
BUT, they did not change the calendar back from an imposed lunar/solar to the solar calendar of the Scrolls/Qumran folks

so while there will be rift between Sadducees and Pharisees over theological things and issues of King/Priesthood etc
there will be beef between Sadducees/Pharisees and the Essenes over all that stuff AND the Calendar
corruption may happen on occasion, but here the claim is that it is institutional going forward

to me they personally don't like each other at all, and NT language that John used ("brood of vipers" and whatnot)
seems to have Essene precedent in the Scrolls
 
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docphin5 said:
Do you see that Open Heart's position correlates with the Pharisees who opposed the Essenes,
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Hey the Pharisees were the good guys. They gook a religion out of the hands of the preists, and put it into the hands of every Jew, by focusing on keeping the commandments rather than just having preists make sacrifices. They built the first synagogues for the study of the Torah. They created teh first Jewish days schools so that every Jewish boy could read and write in Hebrew, and thus have direct access to the Torah. They took the messaage of ethical monotheism to the world. Yeap, the good guys.
 
Open Heart said:
They took (the) religion
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that is a part of my subject here -
who do Messianic Jews of today look to as their model or ideal of "Judaism"?
the Pharisees, who differ on very important Theological issues?

If someone is going to do or adopt Jewish/Torah religious rituals,
they need to do them correctly and Biblically, because they are symbolic and prophetic in nature

no doubt Pharisees think they are correct, but are they really?
obviously there were Jews, smart and literate Jews with an extensive Jewish library even. who thought No
 
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docphin5 said:
The allegorizers (?)
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In my view, Paul had a Theology change from Pharisaism to Essenism/the Zadok way

all the basic Christian theological beliefs are found in the Scrolls
and prophetically in the OT, for those who can See

"Immediately there fell from his eyes something like scales, and he received his sight at once; and he arose and was baptized.///"
welcome to the Way of Light Saul of Tarsus
 
American Gothic said:
I would view it as
Pharisee vs Essene leads to
Rabbinic Judaism (which I view as a continuation of Pharisaism) vs belief in Jesus as Messiah

I have limited knowledge of Gnosticism, but the theology of that seems very different
noticeably so compared to the theology of works that were put in the NT
Click to expand...

American Gothic said:
stuff like this (Jasher, Seder Olam, etc) is a part of my interest
are you aware of the Essene/Dead Sea Scroll calendar? (I haven't checked out your thread so I don't know what you are familiar with)
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Only so much that Wise goes into in “The Dead Sea Scrolls, a New Translation”. He goes into detail more than anything I have read before, —very dry details, and hard to follow. What I remember is that the Essenes were trying to changeover from a lunar calender to a solar calender. Apparently, keeping accurate time was very important because without accurate records the people could starve given they were supposed to leave the fields fallow at specific times. I will have to go through it again with a rested mind. It is a lot of details to process.
 
docphin5 said:
Only so much that Wise goes into i It is a lot of details to process.
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it sounds like you are familiar with similar stuff to my interest - cool

keeping accurate time is essential for the Mosaic law
and as you allude to, God had said the Seasons would continue in a regular and predictable fashion
 
Open Heart said:
Hey the Pharisees were the good guys. They gook a religion out of the hands of the preists, and put it into the hands of every Jew, by focusing on keeping the commandments rather than just having preists make sacrifices. They built the first synagogues for the study of the Torah. They created teh first Jewish days schools so that every Jewish boy could read and write in Hebrew, and thus have direct access to the Torah. They took the messaage of ethical monotheism to the world. Yeap, the good guys.
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If you say so. I really have no vested interest in the conflict between Pharisees and Essenes and concede that rabbinical Judaism has done some good. The same could be said for Christianity, eg., protestant Christianity took the scriptures out of the hands of the priests and put it in the hands of the public. If I remember correctly, Tyndale was executed for publishing a Bible in the English language. I am sure a Muslim, Buddhist, and Hindu, could identify the good in their respective religions too.

My interest in the Essenes is that they allegorized scripture (as did Philo, Paul, gnostic Christians, Greek priests, Egyptian priests, etc.) and if they allegorized in such a way to provide a meaning that reconciles with the science of our world then, …I cannot think of any greater news than that! IMO, the world does not need another synagogue, church, ward, mosque, or temple. The world needs Truth, and it needs it now more than ever. What are we, where did we come from, and where are we going? We need real answers to those questions. Not more myths, superstitions, or fairy tales. Just clear, straight answers, —in my humble opinion.

So far, I have found the Trismegistic literature the most clear, rational, and thorough regarding cosmogenesis. The surprising thing is how well it correlates with Jewish-Christianity (Essenes) and gnostic Christianity (eg., Nassenes). I suspect that it is more than a coincidence. Either they were plagiarizing from each other or they had a common source (possibly metaphysical), that they drew from.
 
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docphin5 said:
The world needs Truth, and it needs it now more than ever. What are we, where did we come from, and where are we going? We need real answers to those questions. Not more myths, superstitions, or fairy tales.
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what, to You, is an accurate source of Truth?
the Hebrews scriptures/OT? the NT? other things?

How would any "allegorizing" of Mosaic covenant law and Biblical history/prophecy be a source of truth?

How are secular Science and Divine revelation to be reconcilled?
especially as modern science is far and away Materialist in scope, focus, and dogmatic about what is accepted as Science?

Materialism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

Scientism - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org
 
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Hasmonean dynasty (High Priests)​

Herodian-Roman period​

many don't last over a year or so
wonder what's up with that?
 
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