Theodoret of Cyrus, Cyril of Alexandria and Nestorius.

[Unbound68]

@TwoNoteableCorruptions

Or is your claim that Cyril quotes the Comma an outright fabrication?

 

[cjab]

(credit to Steven Avery for both links below)

So Avery gives two authors, one a Jesuit, Theodorus Peltanus (full Comma) and the other Severin Binius with a reputation for learning who also cites the Greek text (no Comma).
_____________________________________________

Concilia generalia, et prouincialia, graeca et latina quaecunque reperiri potuerunt; ... Ex manuscriptis, alijsque emendatioribus codicibus nunc secundo aucta, ... Tomi primi pars 2 · Volume 1
(whatever general and provincial councils, Greek and Latin, could be found; ... from the manuscripts and other emendated copies now in the second part of the book · Volume 1)

By Severin Binius, Giacomo : da#S. Felice · 1618

"Et spiritus est, qui testificatur, quoniam Spiritus est veritas. Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimoniudant" (And it is the spirit who testifies, that the Spirit is the truth. Because there are three who testify................)

followed by

The scarcely legible Greek text is: ".......τὸ Πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς ἕν εἰσι......" (the spirit, the water and the blood and the three are one.)

Severin Binius
_______________
Historian and critic, b. in 1573 in the village of Randerath, Western Germany; d. 14 February, 1641. He made his studies at the gymnasium of St. Lawrence, in Cologne, and later taught in the same school for several years. After his ordination to the priesthood he obtained the degree of doctor of divinity from the University of Cologne, where he taught general ecclesiastical history and ecclesiastical discipline, eventually becoming (1627-30) Rector Magnificus of the university. Binius was successively canon in two chapter-churches of Cologne and finally in the cathedral. In 1631 he was made counsellor and vicar-general of the archdiocese, a promotion due to his learning and one which was amply justified by his ability in managing the affairs of the archdiocese. Besides his many ordinary occupations he was active in the ecclesiastical ministry; he was also very charitable towards the poor, especially to needy students. The reputation of Binius is owing chiefly to his edition of the Councils of the Church. The previous collections by Jacques Merlin, Peter Crabbe, and Lorenzo Surius appeared incomplete to him, lacking as they did explanatory notes. With the help of other scholars he prepared a new edition of the councils in four volumes (Cologne, 1606) under the title "Concilia generalia et provincialia". It gives only the Latin text, and contains the acts of the councils, the decretal letters, and the lives of the popes. Binius added copious explanatory notes drawn largely from the "Ecclesiastical Annals" of Baronius.
A second edition, considerably enlarged and containing also the Greek text, appeared at Cologne in 1618.
In 1639 a third edition in nine volumes appeared at Paris, in preparation for which extensive use was made of the collection of councils published at Rome from 1608 to 1612. Binius also prepared an edition of the ecclesiastical histories of Eusebius, Socrates, Theodoret, Sozomen, and Evagrius.
____________________________

Avery: "This is the Peltanus page 122-123

Sacrosancti magni, et oecumenici concilii Ephesini primi acta omnia ... accesserunt his, praeter quatuor Indices, et quinque Appendices ... cum pontificio caesareoque privilegio
Theodor Anton Peltanus"
https://books.google.com/books?id=qqxmAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA122"

 

[Unbound68]

(credit to Steven Avery for both links below)

So Avery gives two authors, one a Jesuit, Theodorus Peltanus (full Comma) and the other Severin Binius with a reputation for learning who also cites the Greek text (no Comma).
_____________________________________________

Concilia generalia, et prouincialia, graeca et latina quaecunque reperiri potuerunt; ... Ex manuscriptis, alijsque emendatioribus codicibus nunc secundo aucta, ... Tomi primi pars 2 · Volume 1
(whatever general and provincial councils, Greek and Latin, could be found; ... from the manuscripts and other emendated copies now in the second part of the book · Volume 1)

By Severin Binius, Giacomo : da#S. Felice · 1618

"Et spiritus est, qui testificatur, quoniam Spiritus est veritas. Quoniam tres sunt, qui testimoniudant" (And it is the spirit who testifies, that the Spirit is the truth. Because there are three who testify................)

followed by

The scarcely legible Greek text is: ".......τὸ Πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς ἕν εἰσι......" (the spirit, the water and the blood and the three are one.)

Severin Binius
_______________
Historian and critic, b. in 1573 in the village of Randerath, Western Germany; d. 14 February, 1641. He made his studies at the gymnasium of St. Lawrence, in Cologne, and later taught in the same school for several years. After his ordination to the priesthood he obtained the degree of doctor of divinity from the University of Cologne, where he taught general ecclesiastical history and ecclesiastical discipline, eventually becoming (1627-30) Rector Magnificus of the university. Binius was successively canon in two chapter-churches of Cologne and finally in the cathedral. In 1631 he was made counsellor and vicar-general of the archdiocese, a promotion due to his learning and one which was amply justified by his ability in managing the affairs of the archdiocese. Besides his many ordinary occupations he was active in the ecclesiastical ministry; he was also very charitable towards the poor, especially to needy students. The reputation of Binius is owing chiefly to his edition of the Councils of the Church. The previous collections by Jacques Merlin, Peter Crabbe, and Lorenzo Surius appeared incomplete to him, lacking as they did explanatory notes. With the help of other scholars he prepared a new edition of the councils in four volumes (Cologne, 1606) under the title "Concilia generalia et provincialia". It gives only the Latin text, and contains the acts of the councils, the decretal letters, and the lives of the popes. Binius added copious explanatory notes drawn largely from the "Ecclesiastical Annals" of Baronius.
A second edition, considerably enlarged and containing also the Greek text, appeared at Cologne in 1618.
In 1639 a third edition in nine volumes appeared at Paris, in preparation for which extensive use was made of the collection of councils published at Rome from 1608 to 1612. Binius also prepared an edition of the ecclesiastical histories of Eusebius, Socrates, Theodoret, Sozomen, and Evagrius.
____________________________

Avery: "This is the Peltanus page 122-123

Sacrosancti magni, et oecumenici concilii Ephesini primi acta omnia ... accesserunt his, praeter quatuor Indices, et quinque Appendices ... cum pontificio caesareoque privilegio
Theodor Anton Peltanus"
https://books.google.com/books?id=qqxmAAAAcAAJ&pg=PA122"

Thank you!

 

[cjab]

Thank you!

Actually I made a mistake. I should have said:

The scarcely legible Greek text is: ".......τὸ Πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσι......" (the spirit, the water and the blood and the three are one.)

.....which doesn't exactly correspond to our 1 John 5:8 as "εῖς το" (in the) is missing in the Cyrillian quotation (which frankly is what I would have expected given Cyril's particular brand of theology).

Also the more accurate link is:

Concilia generalia, et prouincialia, graeca et latina quotquot reperiri potuerunt, item Epistolae decretales, ... Omnia studio, et industria R.D. Seuerini Binii, ..

www.google.co.uk

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

Actually I made a mistake. I should have said:

The scarcely legible Greek text is: ".......τὸ Πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς ἕν εἰσι......" (the spirit, the water and the blood and the three are one.)

.....which doesn't exactly correspond to our 1 John 5:8 as "εῖς το" (in the) is missing in the Cyrillian quotation (which frankly is what I would have expected given Cyril's particular brand of theology).

Also the more accurate link is:

Concilia generalia, et prouincialia, graeca et latina quotquot reperiri potuerunt, item Epistolae decretales, ... Omnia studio, et industria R.D. Seuerini Binii, ..

www.google.co.uk

It's very probable that the ninth century Greek copyist (well after the Comma's entry into the Latin Bible manuscripts and increased circulation and knowledge of it's existence began to spread) for him to feel uncomfortable with εῖς το, and to simply leave the preposition and article out (to perhaps harmonize with the Latin). Coincidentally, or perhaps uncoincidentally, this happens to be the same reading of 1 John 5:8 (Clause-D, KJV-numbering) found in some of the Pseudo-Athanasius Disputatio Contra Arium manuscripts.

Πρὸς δὲ τούτοις πᾶσιν Ἰωάννης φάσκει· [Variant Text] “Καὶ οἱ τρεῖς τὸ ἕν εἰσι.”
Πρὸς δὲ τούτοις πᾶσιν Ἰωάννης φάσκει· [Printed Text] "Καὶ οἱ τρεῖς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν."

A work for which no manuscripts can be found that definitely date from before the 9th century.

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

I think we have our answer for the Latin Comma interpolation in Peltanus version.

Theodor Anton Peltanus (circa. 1562-1584 A.D./C.E.)
Jesuit Priest of the Catholic Society of Jesus

"Sacrosancti, magni et oecumenici concilii Ephesini" 1576
"Praefatio," Page 30

“Quod attinet ad vtriusq[e] Testamenti Scripturas, vulgatam editionem Latinam retinui :
etsi Graeci 70 versionem adducunt, que a nostra non raro dissidet.”

https://www.google.co.nz/books/edit...oecumenici_Concilii/3IYmBtxUoAoC?hl=en&gbpv=1

"The Witness of God is Greater, 1500 years of the Heavenly and Earthly Witnesses. A Source Book."
Mike Ferrando (Updated: 6/20/2022)

Subheading: Cyril of Alexandria (376–444 AD)
Page 195

Translated by Jeroen Beekhuizen, June 2020

"That both Testaments of Scripture might be preserved, I have retained the Latin Vulgate edition, even though about 70 verses run differently in Greek and not seldom disagree with ours [i.e. the Latin Vulgate]."
​

Mr Avery must have been aware of Peltanus' tampering, because he had a part in both researching this book (TWOGG above), and in announcing it's publication to the world on his blog. Considering also, that it was Steven who posted the Latin Comma-inclusive text originally on this forum.

 

[Unbound68]

Outstanding!

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

Outstanding!

Steven even posted the same translation from Beekhuizen on his blog ("Council of Ephesus - AD 431, Cyril of Alexandria - De recta ad Deum Fide ad Reginas"), that's where I first saw it.

But I went to the book online to verify.

 

[Unbound68]

Steven even posted the same translation from Beekhuizen on his blog ("Council of Ephesus - AD 431, Cyril of Alexandria - De recta ad Deum Fide ad Reginas"), that's where I first saw it.

But I went to the book online to verify.

Get ready for the spin.....

First Conti.
Now Peltanus.
And I'm sure if we would dig deeper through his entire "source book" we'd find more misrepresentations.

Any thinking person would see a pattern here.

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

Get ready for the spin.....

First Conti.
Now Peltanus.
And I'm sure if we would dig deeper through his entire "source book" we'd find more misrepresentations.

Any thinking person would see a pattern here.

I found it!

I found the Greek text of Cyril for the Council of Ephesus!

No surprise. There is no Johannine Comma (or Comma Johanneum), as expected. It list's Cyril's manuscripts for this work as well (which I will check personally at some point).

I'll share it with you by private message later.

 

[Unbound68]

I found it!

I found the Greek text of Cyril for the Council of Ephesus!

No surprise. There is no Johannine Comma (or Comma Johanneum), as expected. It list's Cyril's manuscripts for this work as well (which I will check personally at some point).

I'll share it with you by private message later.

You are tireless, sir. I know I'm not the only one who appreciates your efforts.

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

Any thinking person would see a pattern here.

Yes. Jesuit priests of the Counter-Reformation period, had no qualms whatsoever about interpolating the Comma into their printed texts.

The reason why this happens, is because they wanted to show that the Fathers of the Church were Catholic (far more Catholic than what they really were). That's why they were the normally the first to publish printed editions starting circa the 15th century etc (un-coincidentally the same general era of the first phase of the Erasmus controversy).

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

You are tireless, sir. I know I'm not the only one who appreciates your efforts.

We're in a new era, due the digitization of manuscripts and many other resources, when we (the ordinary people) can research and verify a lot of these things ourselves (including you) via the internet.

 

[Steven Avery]

You might want to quote what I actually wrote on the forum about the Peltanus edition.
And you can quote PBF.

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

You might want to quote what I actually wrote on the forum about the Peltanus edition.
And you can quote PBF.

You were aware of the translation.

You posted the translation on your blog.

You helped in the research for the book (TWOGG).

You then posted the text on the CARM forums.

Facts.

You were aware of Beekhuizen's translation of what Peltanus said in his Preface, before engaging in this thread about Cyril of Alexandria and the Council of Ephesus 431.

Did I say anything else about you, or what you said, above in posts #26 and #28, Steven?

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

The Greek Manuscripts of the Comma Johanneum (1 John 5:7–8)
Elijah Hixon

https://evangelicaltextualcriticism...howComment=1615239416522#c1752086447887121710

"On the Lateran Council, if councils are important, as you suggest, then why have you not mentioned the Council of Ephesus (431) in which Cyril of Alexandria's Oratio ad Dominas was included with the official Acts of the council? There, Cyril gives a block-by-block exposition of 1 John and quotes 1 John 5:5–8 as a single unit without the CJ—in a text form accepted as valid in Ephesus in 431. That seems to be strong evidence that should be considered as well."

​

From my initial research in the Greek text, what Elijah Hixson said is exactly right.

Cyril (in the work in question) goes through each book of the NT systematically in the Gospels and Epistles of Paul and Catholic (Universal) Epistles.

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

It's interesting that in Peltanus' Preface above, in his comments on replacing Cyril's originally Greek Scripture quotations with 15th century Vulgate readings, uses the Latin word "retinui" translated above as "retained"

One of it's meanings (semantic domains according to context) is "protect" "guard".

Cf. number 3 at the link below:

https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/retineo#Latin

 

[Unbound68]

And the silence from Avery on this matter is deafening!

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

It's a pattern. He waits until we spill the beans and then looks for new angles of approach and weak points that he can either attack, twist, or denigrate.

 

[TwoNoteableCorruptions]

Here's a point, an angle you could say. The Apostle John was apparently last known to have been in Ephesus when he died, and supposed to have written his Bible books from there. It was reported the original Gospel of John was still in existence in Ephesus in the 3rd century.

That's the strength of the Council of Ephesus compared to the Council of Carthage Avery goes on and on about.