Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Washed

Washed

Active member
I beg you, what are these traditions that Paul and the other apostles taught that we are to hold fast to? If you list any that are not found in written scripture, please provide documentation that these teachings came from Paul or the apostles. I really really really want to know as I am commanded to hold fast to them!
 
Washed said:
I beg you, what are these traditions that Paul and the other apostles taught that we are to hold fast to? If you list any that are not found in written scripture, please provide documentation that these teachings came from Paul or the apostles. I really really really want to know as I am commanded to hold fast to them!
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Catholics don't even know even though the ccc says all tradition has been passed down from generation to generation. They don't know all dogma they HAVE to submit to. So again, they talk a big game but are always short on facts. They want you to join their church but they can't give a convincing reason as to why.
 
Washed said:
I beg you, what are these traditions that Paul and the other apostles taught that we are to hold fast to? If you list any that are not found in written scripture, please provide documentation that these teachings came from Paul or the apostles. I really really really want to know as I am commanded to hold fast to them!
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The liturgy.
 
Washed said:
I beg you, what are these traditions that Paul and the other apostles taught that we are to hold fast to? If you list any that are not found in written scripture, please provide documentation that these teachings came from Paul or the apostles. I really really really want to know as I am commanded to hold fast to them!
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This is typical of Protestants. When this verse is cited--that clearly shows Tradition is equal to Scripture in authority---which means that by definition, Sola Scriptura is unscriptural--the Protestant then changes the subject and asks "What are these traditions?"

While "What are these traditions" is a good question, right now it isn't relevant. YOU, sir, as a Protestant, claim that Scripture is the sole infallible rule of Faith. YOU, sir, as a Protestant, claim that the apostles and Jesus were Sola Scriptura Christians.

In the very passage your are citing, Paul refers his people to the oral tradition suggesting that this oral tradition is as authoritative as Scripture. That being the case, Paul did not follow Sola Scriptura, which means Sola Scriptura is unbiblical. Paul referred the Christians to something other than Scripture that they were to look to. Thus, Sola Scriptura is not scriptural. Protestants look only to Scripture.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
This is typical of Protestants. When this verse is cited--that clearly shows Tradition is equal to Scripture in authority---which means that by definition, Sola Scriptura is unscriptural--the Protestant then changes the subject and asks "What are these traditions?"

While "What are these traditions" is a good question, right now it isn't relevant. YOU, sir, as a Protestant, claim that Scripture is the sole infallible rule of Faith. YOU, sir, as a Protestant, claim that the apostles and Jesus were Sola Scriptura Christians.

In the very passage your are citing, Paul refers his people to the oral tradition suggesting that this oral tradition is as authoritative as Scripture. That being the case, Paul did not follow Sola Scriptura, which means Sola Scriptura is unbiblical. Paul referred the Christians to something other than Scripture that they were to look to. Thus, Sola Scriptura is not scriptural. Protestants look only to Scripture.
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Thank you for your reply. I see you can't tell me what Paul or the apostles taught that were not written down that I must hold fast to. Maybe someone else that has more knowledge than you can assist me.

Thanks, anyway.
 
Washed said:
Thank you for your reply. I see you can't tell me what Paul or the apostles taught that were not written down that I must hold fast to. Maybe someone else that has more knowledge than you can assist me.

Thanks, anyway.
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Sir, you don't read posts do you? You, like everyone else on this site just hit reply as if there was no post.

Sir, PROTESTANTS are the ones who say that we are to look ONLY to Scripture. In the verse cited Paul refers them to something OTHER than Scripture. The fact that an apostle refers the Christians to something OTHER than Scripture---by definition refutes Sola Scriptura.

In other words: to refute Sola Scriptura--all I have to do is show that Christ OR the apostles referred Christians to something OTHER than Scripture that is authoritative. This very thing has been done in the very passage you cited. It doesn't matter WHAT the traditions were, what matters is that for Paul, they were as authoritative as Scripture.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
Sir, you don't read posts do you? You, like everyone else on this site just hit reply as if there was no post.

Sir, PROTESTANTS are the ones who say that we are to look ONLY to Scripture. In the verse cited Paul refers them to something OTHER than Scripture. The fact that an apostle refers the Christians to something OTHER than Scripture---by definition refutes Sola Scriptura.

In other words: to refute Sola Scriptura--all I have to do is show that Christ OR the apostles referred Christians to something OTHER than Scripture that is authoritative. This very thing has been done in the very passage you cited. It doesn't matter WHAT the traditions were, what matters is that for Paul, they were as authoritative as Scripture.
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And like a true catholic you misrepresent sola scriptura yet again. When we say 'only scripture' (and you've been told this for the better part of 20 years) we mean 'test all things by scripture alone'. Not that every single solitary thing we believe or do comes from scripture and scripture alone. Thats nonsense. We TEST all things by the word of God. And Paul is not talking about your sacred tradition in the first place. Paradosis refers to;

giving up, giving over, deliver, instruction. Not;

sacred tradition, a separate source of teaching not found in the bible but equal to the bible.

Paul is simply instructing them to adhere to what he has already taught them, by word or by mouth. Catholics make too much of this verse.
 
Nondenom40 said:
And like a true catholic you misrepresent sola scriptura yet again. When we say 'only scripture' (and you've been told this for the better part of 20 years) we mean 'test all things by scripture alone'. Not that every single solitary thing we believe or do comes from scripture and scripture alone. Thats nonsense. We TEST all things by the word of God. And Paul is not talking about your sacred tradition in the first place. Paradosis refers to;

giving up, giving over, deliver, instruction. Not;

sacred tradition, a separate source of teaching not found in the bible but equal to the bible.

Paul is simply instructing them to adhere to what he has already taught them, by word or by mouth. Catholics make too much of this verse.
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I love you people. I really do. This is why it is so difficult to debate Sola Scriptura. You keep changing the definition of the doctrine to suit the needs of the discussion.

The definition of Sola Scriptura that I have read is that Sola Scriptura means that Scripture is the ultimate authority in the Church. It is the supreme court of final appeal. The Church has authority, tradition has authority, but these are lesser authorities. Scripture is the sole infallible rule of Faith. This is becasue its nature is Theopneustos. Being Theopneustos (God Breathed) there can be no other higher authority. Scripture is God speaking.

In the passage cited, Paul says nothing about testing the oral tradition by Scripture. He simply refers the people to Scripture or Tradition.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
I love you people. I really do. This is why it is so difficult to debate Sola Scriptura. You keep changing the definition of the doctrine to suit the needs of the discussion.

The definition of Sola Scriptura that I have read is that Sola Scriptura means that Scripture is the ultimate authority in the Church. It is the supreme court of final appeal. The Church has authority, tradition has authority, but these are lesser authorities. Scripture is the sole infallible rule of Faith. This is becasue its nature is Theopneustos. Being Theopneustos (God Breathed) there can be no other higher authority. Scripture is God speaking.

In the passage cited, Paul says nothing about testing the oral tradition by Scripture. He simply refers the people to Scripture or Tradition.
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I didn't change anything. Paul says hold to what they have ALREADY been taught. This is in 2 Thess. Hmm, wonder where we could go to see what he previously taught them??? 2 Thess comes after?
 
Nondenom40 said:
I didn't change anything. Paul says hold to what they have ALREADY been taught.
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Correct: orally or in writing.

For Paul---it was not a question of Scripture VS. Tradition, but Scripture AND Tradition. For Protestants, it is Scripture VS. Tradition, not Scripture AND Tradition.
Nondenom40 said:
This is in 2 Thess. Hmm, wonder where we could go to see what he previously taught them??? 2 Thess comes after?
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Where could we go? We could to to the Scriptures AND OR we could go to Tradition.

THAT is the point, sir.
 
Washed said:
I beg you, what are these traditions that Paul and the other apostles taught that we are to hold fast to? If you list any that are not found in written scripture, please provide documentation that these teachings came from Paul or the apostles. I really really really want to know as I am commanded to hold fast to them!
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Welcome to CARM.

With Rc's claim of a three-legged institution, they avoid having to answer the difficult questions about the religious belief system they bet their eternal soul on. I pray your endeavors bear fruit and I've linked a past OP that sought something similar.

- Missed opportunities for Roman Catholic's and Roman Catholicism...

So, for the record, this particular forum is for Roman Catholics to be questioned concerning what their religious belief system claims and holds as proof of its doctrines through debate and the disparity between what Roman Catholicism claims and hold as true, those rules, dogmas and traditions...
forums.carm.org
 
romishpopishorganist said:
Correct: orally or in writing.

For Paul---it was not a question of Scripture VS. Tradition, but Scripture AND Tradition. For Protestants, it is Scripture VS. Tradition, not Scripture AND Tradition.

Where could we go? We could to to the Scriptures AND OR we could go to Tradition.

THAT is the point, sir.
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And paradosis again is instruction, delivery, a way of transport, to give over. Its not sacred tradition. They've already been taught this either by word or orally. We don't care because the content is the same whether delivered one way or the other. If you think he taught two completely different things, please show us the contents of this tradition Paul allegedly gave them, orally.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
Correct: orally or in writing.

For Paul---it was not a question of Scripture VS. Tradition, but Scripture AND Tradition. For Protestants, it is Scripture VS. Tradition, not Scripture AND Tradition. ...
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You need to provide documentation that shows Paul's oral teachings (RCC's unwritten Tradition) and Paul's written teachings (God's written Scripture) were different.
 
Nondenom40 said:
And paradosis again is instruction, delivery, a way of transport, to give over. Its not sacred tradition.
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What do you think Catholics mean by Tradition if NOT what you just cited above?
Nondenom40 said:
They've already been taught this either by word or orally.
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And--your point is---what?
Nondenom40 said:
We don't care because the content is the same whether delivered one way or the other.
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Correct! The content is the SAME.
Nondenom40 said:
If you think he taught two completely different things, please show us the contents of this tradition Paul allegedly gave them, orally.
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I do not think He taught two completely different things.

What I think is that Paul delivered one and the same Gospel in writing and in orally.
 
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