to Whom specifically was the Savior promised?

A

American Gothic

Well-known member
14 So the Lord God said to the serpent:

“Because you have done this,
You are cursed more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you shall go,
And you shall eat dust
All the days of your life.
15 And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her Seed;
He shall bruise your head,
And you shall bruise His heel.” <- the Savior
16 To the woman He said:

“I will greatly multiply your sorrow and your conception;
In pain you shall bring forth children;
Your desire shall be for your husband,
And he shall rule over you.”
17 Then to Adam He said, “Because you have heeded the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree of which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat of it’:

“Cursed is the ground for your sake;
In toil you shall eat of it
All the days of your life.
18 Both thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you,
And you shall eat the herb of the field.
19 In the sweat of your face you shall eat bread
Till you return to the ground,
For out of it you were taken;
For dust you are,
And to dust you shall return.”
20 And Adam called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all living.

21 Also for Adam and his wife the Lord God made tunics of skin, and clothed them.

22 Then the Lord God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, to know good and evil. And now, lest he put out his hand and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23 therefore the Lord God sent him out of the garden of Eden to till the ground from which he was taken. 24 So He drove out the man; and He placed cherubim at the east of the garden of Eden, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to guard the way to the tree of life.

​

 
the above is by some referred to as the Adamic covenant
is the judgement on Adam here by extension a judgement on all Humanity?

in L point, where here is the basis for the Savior and His redemptive work being promised only to Believers (the Elect/chosen)?
 
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American Gothic said:
the above is by some referred to as the Adamic covenant
is the judgement on Adam here by extension a judgement on all Humanity?

in L point, where here is the basis for the Savior and His redemptive work being promised only to Believers (the Elect/chosen)?
Click to expand...
The Adamic Covenant includes Everyone, the Mosaic Covenant was for Israel...
 
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ReverendRV said:
The Adamic Covenant is for Everyone, the Mosaic Covenant was for Israel...
Click to expand...

"Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death."

what nation? Israel
Messiah only died for Israel? (a la "He died for His sheep" - L point ..only His sheep)?
 
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American Gothic said:
"Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
Then, from that day on, they plotted to put Him to death."

what nation? Israel
Messiah only died for Israel? (a la "he only died for His sheep")?
Click to expand...
He died for the World and for Israel; to Keep two Covenants of Works...
 
American Gothic said:
two covenants of works?

Noahic and Mosaic? gentiles and Israel? Y/N?
Click to expand...
The Edenic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant. Jesus is the Second Adam because he was to Keep the Edenic Covenant through Keeping the Mosaic Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant was the Edenic Covenant 2.0. The Edenic Covenant was for All people (as we can see All are Condemned), the Mosaic Covenant was Limited to a People; but Jesus Kept it for the Definite Number of All Spiritual Israel. The One Fell for All within his Covenant, the other Fulfilled his Covenant for All within that Covenant. There is a Spiritual Israel because the two Covenants are One Spiritual Covenant of Works that has two Heads...
 
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ReverendRV said:
The Edenic Covenant and the Mosaic Covenant. Jesus is the Second Adam because he was to Keep the Edenic Covenant through Keeping the Mosaic Covenant. The Mosaic Covenant was the Edenic Covenant 2.0. The Edenic Covenant was for All people (as we can see All are Condemned), the Mosaic Covenant was Limited to a People; but Jesus Kept it for the Definite Number of All Israel. The One Fell for All within his Covenant, the other Fulfilled his Covenant for All within his Covenant. There is a Spiritual Israel because the two Covenants are One Spiritual Covenant of Works that has two Heads...
Click to expand...
the Edenic preceded the Adamic, and had one command
it was a conditional covenant, was broken, and a new covenant (Adamic) was made
with all humanity?

to whom was the Savior and His redemptive work promised...

(Spiritual Israel is the Believers of Israel/the faithful Remnant....gentile Believers are spiritual gentiles, not Israel/Jews)
 
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American Gothic said:
the Edenic preceded the Adamic, and had one command
it was a conditional covenant, was broken, and a new covenant (Adamic) was made
with all humanity?

to whom was the Savior and His redemptive work promised...

(Spiritual Israel is the Believers of Israel/the faithful Remnant....gentile Believers are spiritual gentiles, not Israel/Jews)
Click to expand...
In the Edenic/Adamic Covenants, the Unconditional Consequences were Universal for All within the Edenic Covenant. Why is the Adamic Covenant Limited when the Edenic Covenant wasn't? If there is a Limit, it would be limited to Adam and Eve, right?

The Mosaic Covenant Limits the Unconditional Consequences of Christ Keeping it, and sharing these Consequences; with Spiritual Israel...
 
ReverendRV said:
The Mosaic Covenant Limits the Unconditional Consequences of Christ Keeping it, and sharing these Consequences; to Spiritual Israel...
Click to expand...
the Mosaic covenant limits the obligation to keep it to Israel (and God) "All that God has commanded we (Israel) will do"
and limits the specified blessings and punishments to Israel, because it was made with only Them

in the Edenic/Adamic Covenants, the Unconditional Consequences were Universal for All within the Edenic Covenant. Why is the Adamic Covenant Limited when the Edenic Covenant wasn't? If there is a Limit, it would be limited to Adam and Eve, right?
Click to expand...
if the Adamic covenant indeed applies to all Mankind

then L point, becomes U... (TUUIP)
 
American Gothic said:
the Mosaic covenant limits the obligation to keep it to Israel (and God) "All that God has commanded we (Israel) will do"
and limits the specified blessings and punishments to Israel, because it was made with only Them


if the Mosaic covenant indeed applies to all Mankind

then L point, becomes U...? (TUUIP)
Click to expand...
The Mosaic Covenant can't apply to All Mankind, just to Israel/Spiritual Israel...

The Limited Mosaic Covenant certainly limits the Atonement. I would never say the Mosaic Covenant is a Universal Atonement...

I would however say the Adamic Covenant is Universal (Gentile and Jew; Adam was a Gentile), because the Edenic Covenant was Universal...
 
ReverendRV said:
The Mosaic Covenant can't apply to All Mankind, just to Israel/Spiritual Israel...
Click to expand...
for gentiles to get the spiritual blessings promised to Israel, the separation that covenant made had to end
and gentiles must be "brought near" thru the same required faith in Messiah (without having to become Jews)

ReverendRV said:
The Limited Mosaic Covenant certainly limits the Atonement. I would never say the Mosaic Covenant is a Universal Atonement...
Click to expand...
the atoning sacrfices of the Mosaic covenant had nothing to do with Salvation
only Fellowship within that covenant

and they typologically prophesied of the promised Savior and His redemptive work
 
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ReverendRV said:
The Mosaic Covenant can't apply to All Mankind, just to Israel/Spiritual Israel...

The Limited Mosaic Covenant certainly limits the Atonement. I would never say the Mosaic Covenant is a Universal Atonement...
Click to expand...

So basically man is dead.

When does the being able to be thingy kick in?
 
Slyzr said:
When does the being able to be thingy kick in?
Click to expand...
'round about when God calls His Elect/chosen

-

there are essentially two old and two new covenants
an older and then a newer with Adam
an older and then a newer with Israel

there are two competing new testaments as well (within Judaism) -
the testament of the Jews who believe Jesus and the testament of the (religious) Jews who do not believe Jesus
they are opposed on a number of points -

God is triunly (sic) singular / God is exclusively singular
Jesus is the Messiah / Jesus is not the Messiah
Messiah is God incarnate / Messiah is just a man
Messiah suffered for humanity / the Jewish people have suffered for humanity
the Mosaic law is now inoperative / the Mosaic law is still operative somewhat until fully again
Jewishness is reckoned thru the Fathers / Jewishness is reckoned thru the mothers and/or conversion
a Jew is a Jew by blood (or marriage for females) / an ethnic non-Jew can convert to "Judaism" and be considered fully Jewish
 
American Gothic said:
the above is by some referred to as the Adamic covenant
is the judgement on Adam here by extension a judgement on all Humanity?

in L point, where here is the basis for the Savior and His redemptive work being promised only to Believers (the Elect/chosen)?
Click to expand...
To kinda flip atound your question....Where here is the basis for the Savior and His redemptive work being promised to all humans?
 
CrowCross said:
To kinda flip atound your question....Where here is the basis for the Savior and His redemptive work being promised to all humans?
Click to expand...
if the condemnation/curse is extended to all, the redemption/blessing is promised to all (?)
(in God's dealing with our father Adam and thru Mankind's kinsman redeemer)
 
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American Gothic said:
if the condemnation/curse is extended to all, the redemption/blessing is promised to all (?)
(in God's dealing with our father Adam and thru Mankind's kinsman redeemer)
Click to expand...
If Adam would have Kept the Edenic Covenant, All in-him would have Kept it; as All were Condemned in him...

But that wasn't in God's Providential Cards...

Jesus is the Propitiation for the World/Edenic Covenant; but especially for those in the Limited Mosaic Covenant of Spiritual Israel. These two Covenants of Works are One Covenant represented by two Federal Heads. The Mosaic Covenant is Limited. The Adamic Covenant for All, says the Serpent will injure Christ's Heal but he will Crush the Serpent's head. The Gospel and the opportunity is for All, not the Atonement. There would be no need of Atonement if Adam Kept the Covenant of Works, so it was not meant to Atone. Spiritual Israel are the Unconditionally Elect/Faithful...
 
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American Gothic said:
'round about when God calls His Elect/chosen

-

there are essentially two old and two new covenants
an older and then a newer with Adam
an older and then a newer with Israel

there are two competing new testaments as well (within Judaism) -
the testament of the Jews who believe Jesus and the testament of the (religious) Jews who do not believe Jesus
they are opposed on a number of points -

God is triunly (sic) singular / God is exclusively singular
Jesus is the Messiah / Jesus is not the Messiah
Messiah is God incarnate / Messiah is just a man
Messiah suffered for humanity / the Jewish people have suffered for humanity
the Mosaic law is now inoperative / the Mosaic law is still operative somewhat until fully again
Jewishness is reckoned thru the Fathers / Jewishness is reckoned thru the mothers and/or conversion
a Jew is a Jew by blood (or marriage for females) / an ethnic non-Jew can convert to "Judaism" and be considered fully Jewish
Click to expand...

Thanks .....

Really, really, good post.
 
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