Tough questions for ToE enthusiasts:

See my response to PGW
I did. You provided a great deal of uninformed personal opinion and absolutely no evidence of any errors with the Miller-Urey experiment.

Have you not yet learned that mere personal opinion will get you precisely nowhere, unless you have evidence to back up that opinion? If you do not learn that, then you will continue to lose the discussions here because you do not have any supporting evidence.

Remember, that you do not just need evidence about Miller-Urey, you also need evidence about the Becker and Powner papers I referenced above. Science usually has multiple strands of evidence, so criticising one strand still leaves all the other strands untouched.
 
I did. You provided a great deal of uninformed personal opinion and absolutely no evidence of any errors with the Miller-Urey experiment.

Have you not yet learned that mere personal opinion will get you precisely nowhere, unless you have evidence to back up that opinion? If you do not learn that, then you will continue to lose the discussions here because you do not have any supporting evidence.

Remember, that you do not just need evidence about Miller-Urey, you also need evidence about the Becker and Powner papers I referenced above. Science usually has multiple strands of evidence, so criticising one strand still leaves all the other strands untouched.

"Absolutely no evidence of any errors with the Miller-Urey experiment"

Sheer nonsense. You actually think the Miller-Urey experiment is still regarded as without problems? What about the known differences between the early earth atmosphere and their experiment?

The sheer ignorance and arrogance of denying these differences is what Wells was referring to. You are perpetuating the myth by your affirmation, and it illustrates perfectly what Wells is talking about.

You have no knowledge that the composition of the young Earth did not match Miller’s conditions? Nothing?

Unbelievable.
 
"Absolutely no evidence of any errors with the Miller-Urey experiment"
Failure of reading comprehension there. Go back and look again at my post you are replying to. I said:

"You provided ... absolutely no evidence of any errors with the Miller-Urey experiment."​

See those words I bolded? Those words are important. You need to either provide a reference to the errors in the Miller-Urey, or explain those errors in your post. Mere claims do not carry any weight, unless they are accompanied by evidence.

I await your references to the evidence for the issues with the earth's early atmosphere. Be aware that the Miller-Urey experiment has been repeated many times, often with varying atmospheric conditions. I suspect that your lying YEC sources did not mention that fact.
 
Failure of reading comprehension there. Go back and look again at my post you are replying to. I said:

"You provided ... absolutely no evidence of any errors with the Miller-Urey experiment."​

See those words I bolded? Those words are important. You need to either provide a reference to the errors in the Miller-Urey, or explain those errors in your post. Mere claims do not carry any weight, unless they are accompanied by evidence.

I await your references to the evidence for the issues with the earth's early atmosphere. Be aware that the Miller-Urey experiment has been repeated many times, often with varying atmospheric conditions. I suspect that your lying YEC sources did not mention that fact.
Looks like you are stuck with obfuscation and clap trap.

You have no science credentials and are stuck with budhist bickering urges.
 
Failure of reading comprehension there. Go back and look again at my post you are replying to. I said:

"You provided ... absolutely no evidence of any errors with the Miller-Urey experiment."​

See those words I bolded? Those words are important. You need to either provide a reference to the errors in the Miller-Urey, or explain those errors in your post. Mere claims do not carry any weight, unless they are accompanied by evidence.

I await your references to the evidence for the issues with the earth's early atmosphere. Be aware that the Miller-Urey experiment has been repeated many times, often with varying atmospheric conditions. I suspect that your lying YEC sources did not mention that fact.

I assumed you had basic knowledge of early earth atmosphere, so the problems with Miller-Urey would be self-evident for you. Do you actually think this is a YEC invention?
 
None of which remotely threatens the reality of evolution or the explanation of that reality provided by the theory of evolution.
Reality is your dime store toss in pressuposition. Some of my yachts were named after Greek gods. Ancients offered "'explanations" for their gods.

lol.

· He once said, "No amount of experimentation can ever prove me right; a single experiment can prove me wrong." Eistein

Reality is you have never observed unique new information added to the genome. You can react with slander if you don't like the truth.
 
I assumed you had basic knowledge of early earth atmosphere, so the problems with Miller-Urey would be self-evident for you. Do you actually think this is a YEC invention?
Still no references or evidence. You should not assume that I believe what is posted on lying YEC websites. I don't, unless there is independent confirmation. AiG explicitly say that they will ignore any scientific evidence they don't like in their Statement of Faith.

As I said, the M-U experiment has been repeated with differing atmospheric conditions. Most, though not all, of those repeats produced important biological molecules.
 
What is the theory of evolution that you see as real?
Evolution is the factual reality of how living organisms spread into a wide variety of extinct and extant forms. It happened. It continues to happen. It always will happen.

The Theory of Evolution is the scientific explanation of why evolution happens. The theory has been tweaked and updated over the last hundred and fifty years as more data and access to new techniques allowed greater insight. That process will continue, but will not affect the fact that evolution the proces happens.

This is exactly the same as gravity, which manifestly exists, and the theory of gravity which explains why it exists. A theory that has been tweaked over the he years , including a radical rewrite due to Einstein. A theory which is still not quite as accurate or as well evidenced or as useful as the Theory of Evolution.

I hope that helps.
 
It's an attempt to put a smiley face on failure.
Well good for you.

This sort of nonsense, empty replies may satisfy people who are not really thinking or those that are so driven to be right that they will grasp at any response. I'll take the first response as an example.
You are talking aboiut Johnson's BS, right?

This is the evolutionist reply to Miller/Urey:

The 1953 studies by Miller and Urey were the first to show that organic molecules could be produced from very simple precursors and inputs of energy. Their experimental apparatus made it possible to investigate the formation of organic compounds under a wide range of conditions. Numerous studies have been conducted since then with various combinations of chemicals thought to have existed on early Earth. Nearly all of these studies have produced some of the building blocks of life. Origin-of-life remains a vigorous area of research. Evolutionary theory can work with just about any model of the origin of life on Earth. Therefore, how life originated is not strictly a question about evolution.

It's too many words that say nothing new or even answer to the main problem. The early earth was not like the environment Miller/Urey created. Period. There is no explanation given by the responder as to why science textbooks exaggerated the results of Miller/Urey way past its expiration date. The response goes on to give a more optimistic view of Origin of Life research than is the reality of the situation. "Produced some of the building blocks of life" is vaguely deceptive because in spite of continuing Origin of Life research, the truth is that they are FARTHER away from finding a naturalistic explanation for the origin of life than Miller and Urey even conceived of. Vigorous effort may earn you a trophy in Little League but not in scientific research. As long as many OoL researchers treat the subject like shady used car salesmen, they will continue to get criticized.
You problem is you are criticising abiogenesis research as it was seventy years ago. As you say " The early earth was not like the environment Miller/Urey created". How do we know that? Because of seventy years of science since that time.

If you want to address modern research, take a look at these examples.





But if all you are interested in is vacuous posturing, you go ahead and rail against science from the middle of the last century, and ignore the advances since then - even while using its fruits to do so.
 
Well good for you.


You are talking aboiut Johnson's BS, right?


You problem is you are criticising abiogenesis research as it was seventy years ago. As you say " The early earth was not like the environment Miller/Urey created". How do we know that? Because of seventy years of science since that time.

If you want to address modern research, take a look at these examples.





But if all you are interested in is vacuous posturing, you go ahead and rail against science from the middle of the last century, and ignore the advances since then - even while using its fruits to do so.

The bottom line is that OoL research is farther from figuring out how life originated through natural processes than NASA is with sending men to the Andromeda galaxy. OoL researchers are getting funding and grants and such and they have to try to show they are doing something. To be fair, they are working, but since their philosophy is scientific naturalism it continues to deceive them as to how close they are. Much of the general public is misinformed to think the problem has been solved or most of it has been solved and that is pure myth. The links you give are nowhere near to showing anything substantial relative to their goal.
 
The bottom line is that OoL research is farther from figuring out how life originated through natural processes than NASA is with sending men to the Andromeda galaxy. OoL researchers are getting funding and grants and such and they have to try to show they are doing something. To be fair, they are working, but since their philosophy is scientific naturalism it continues to deceive them as to how close they are. Much of the general public is misinformed to think the problem has been solved or most of it has been solved and that is pure myth. The links you give are nowhere near to showing anything substantial relative to their goal.
Personal Opinion: 100%

Evidence: 0%

Post can be safely ignored.
 
Evolution is the factual reality of how living organisms spread into a wide variety of extinct and extant forms. It happened. It continues to happen. It always will happen.

The Theory of Evolution is the scientific explanation of why evolution happens. The theory has been tweaked and updated over the last hundred and fifty years as more data and access to new techniques allowed greater insight. That process will continue, but will not affect the fact that evolution the proces happens.

This is exactly the same as gravity, which manifestly exists, and the theory of gravity which explains why it exists. A theory that has been tweaked over the he years , including a radical rewrite due to Einstein. A theory which is still not quite as accurate or as well evidenced or as useful as the Theory of Evolution.

I hope that helps.

Naturalistic evolution seems to be a philosophy and way of interpreting data. Darwinism and the modern synthesis are theories that attempt to explain how life evolved and these theories of evolution have been updated and tweaked and continue to be updated.

Compared to gravity, we observe, for example, random mutation, inheritance of traits, and Epigenetic modifications like a physicist observes the effects of gravity. No one actually knows for sure what exactly gravity is, but we can observe and measure it's affects. So far, so good.

The problem is that evolutionists think that they can extrapolate these biological processes to account for all of life evolving from a common single cell ancestor and the evidence simply is not there for such a grand claim.

A living cell creates proteins and organizes proteins to perform complex and intricate functions that these chemicals would not do on their own. Each living cell is an industrial complex of nanotechnology controlling the chemicals and molecules under their control in an incomprehensibly precise way. The cell governs what the chemicals do. It's the difference between your computer and a pile of plastic, silicon, and precious metals. Molecules just don't organize to form a computer. If our computers could reproduce, the process for that reproduction would not be based on chemicals assembling on their own but a precisely directed process of the computer controlling how the molecules organize. The computer to reproduce would need artificial intelligence.

Gravity is the force that can be measured to show how fast your computer will fall to the earth if dropped from an airplane. Newtons law of gravity: F=G(m1m2)/R2. You can't make such a formula for how your computer is assembled and operates.

The chemicals inside a living cell are not self-organizing but are forced to organize in precise ways by the nanomachines within the cell. I hope that I don't need to argue with you about that. Epigenetics is showing how the cell is preprogrammed for contingencies or adaption. Error correction processes within the cell serve to conserve the DNA. Random mutations have been observed for sure, but these have never been observed to add anything significant to the cell. You can't give me a single example.

So, what is there really to extrapolate from what we observe to account for descent from a common ancestor? This is why the theory continues to be tweaked because they don't know for sure.

This is why naturalistic evolution is a philosophy looking for a theory. You think that the theory explains it but from what I see if falls far short based on the observable evidence.
 
So, what is there really to extrapolate from what we observe to account for descent from a common ancestor?
The double nested hierarchy.
The degree to which a given phylogeny displays a unique, well-supported, objective nested hierarchy can be rigorously quantified. Several different statistical tests have been developed for determining whether a phylogeny has a subjective or objective nested hierarchy, or whether a given nested hierarchy could have been generated by a chance process instead of a genealogical process (Swofford 1996, p. 504).

Therefore, since common descent is a genealogical process, common descent should produce organisms that can be organized into objective nested hierarchies.

Seventy-five independent studies from different researchers, on different organisms and genes, with high values of CI (P < 0.01) is an incredible confirmation with an astronomical degree of combined statistical significance (P << 10-300, Bailey and Gribskov 1998; Fisher 1990). If the reverse were true—if studies such as this gave statistically significant values of CI (i.e. cladistic hierarchical structure) which were lower than that expected from random data—common descent would have been firmly falsified.
Source
 
The double nested hierarchy.





Source
I'll take a look. Just a cursory view of your sources shows them to be from the 1990's. Genetic sequencing was just getting started so their confidence is a bit odd at first glance. Anything newer, like with the last 5-10 years?
 
You are the one who said that the Tree of life had problems which you have been unable to provide since. I gave you one from 2008 and it has only improved since then.
If you don't like it, it is up to you to show us the problems, and I mean real problems, not just ambiguities.

Confidence can never be perfect, but it is so close now that it is right up there with the sun rising in the east.

This is enough for rational people to consider it a fact, but no ne will deny you your right to your own doubts.
 
I'll take a look. Just a cursory view of your sources shows them to be from the 1990's. Genetic sequencing was just getting started so their confidence is a bit odd at first glance. Anything newer, like with the last 5-10 years?
Not that I'm aware of, but I'm just a lay person. If anyone has done anything in the past 25 years to question the confidence in the findings in my link, I'm happy to hear about it.
 
evolution phyla for which there are no antecedent fossil records


late evolutionary paleontologist Stephen Jay Gould admitted: “The absence of fossil evidence for intermediary stages between major transitions in organic design, indeed our inability, even in our imagination, to construct functional intermediates in many cases, has been a persistent and nagging problem for gradualistic accounts of evolution.

Gradualism dead on arrival.
 
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