Trinitarian confusion at Romans 9:5

This is an overly simplistic understanding of the text. τῆς δόξης is an attributive genitive. We would translate it adjectivally--i.e., glorious. You can see this also from the Greek practice of quoting the scripture. Cf. Romans 8:21, where τὴν ἐλευθερίαν τῆς δόξης τῶν τέκνων τοῦ θεοῦ means, "the glorious liberty of the sons of God," and not, "the liberty of the glory of the sons of God."
No, τῆς δόξης is the subject of the verbal idea expressed by the verbal noun ἐπιφάνειαν. You will find that τῆς δόξης is never indisputably used in the way that you want it here, in the Epistles of apostle Paul.

Once again, it seems to me that you are trying to re-invent the Greek grammar to accommodate your "Deity" idea. I think Gordon Fee is the most esteemed Trinitarian scholar on the epistles of the apostle Paul, and even he agrees that this verse is not calling Jesus God.




 
No, I didn't. I said that Χριστός was originally a title but became used as a proper name. I believe John Milton said the same thing. So I declined to attribute Deity to Christ in the passage at Ephesians 5:5 (as Chrysostom, others do), preferring to err on the side of caution even though I tend to believe it is a monadic title. But you couldn't let it go, and still can't let it go.



John Milton is right:

Either your Greek is really bad, or you are flat out lying. I've seen both from you so I can't tell which. Either way, you are wrong. I'm sorry to see Mr. Avery once again following bad arguments, but that seems to be how confirmation bias trends. Of course, you know who will have to answer most for that, right? The teacher.


This is an overly simplistic understanding of the text. τῆς δόξης is an attributive genitive. We would translate it adjectivally--i.e., glorious. You can see this also from the Greek practice of quoting the scripture. Cf. Romans 8:21, where τὴν ἐλευθερίαν τῆς δόξης τῶν τέκνων τοῦ θεοῦ means, "the glorious liberty of the sons of God," and not, "the liberty of the glory of the sons of God."
You're learning! And it's not the only title which in certain books of the bible is the functional equivalent of a proper name.
 
Chrysostom

Is there a great and little God? With them [the Arians] there is a great and a little God . . . If He were little, how would he also be God? . . . But the Son, he [Arius] says, is little. But it is thou that sayest this, for the Scripture says the contrary: as of the Father, so it speaks of the Son; for listen to Paul, saying, "Looking for the blessed hope, and appearing of the glory [rather, glorious appearing] of our great God." But can he have said "appearing" of the Father? Nay, that he may the more convince you, he has added with reference to the appearing "of the great God." Is it then not said of the Father? By no means. For the sequel suffers it not which says, "The appearing of our great God and Saviour Jesus Christ." See, the Son is great also. How then do you speak of small and great?" Listen to the Prophet too, calling Him . . . "The mighty God" (Commentary on Philippians 2)​
As Jesus said, ὁ Πατὴρ μείζων μού ἐστιν, which fully reflects Jn 1:1b, ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν

The trinitarians sophists repudiate the very words of Christ for the sake of their agenda. Although the John 14:28 doctrine is commony explained away by Trinitarians as a reference to Christ's flesh, it cannot be, per πρὶν Ἀβραὰμ γενέσθαι ἐγὼ εἰμί (Jn 8:58). It can only be a reference to his eternal person. At every point the Trinitarians argue deceptively and repudiate the words of Christ to create their false theology.

BTW, I thought you said previously that you didn't want to engage in theology here: what is the above quote from Chrysostom, but a BS theological argument?
 
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Another totally incompetent reference, like your absurd attack on Ambroisius
I have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't attack "Ambroisius" at all.

Excuse me. I said Middleton (who references Wordsworth) but I meant Wordsworth, Six Letters, p. 132:

We might continue our progress still further, but even this brings us into the middle of the 13th century; so that we shall easily be excused for descending no lower. And it may be fairly estimated, what stress is to be laid on this part of the argument, when it shall have been told, that I have observed more (I am persuaded) than a thousand instances of the form ὁ Χριστος και θεος (Ephes. v. 5.) some hundreds of instances of ὁ μεγας θεος και σωτηρ (Tit. ii. 13); and not fewer than several thousands of the form ὁ θεος και σωτηρ (2 Pet. i. 1.) while in no single case, have I seen (where the sense could be determined) any one of them used, but only of one person.​

Keep in mind that Wordsworth had initially set out to disprove Sharp but ended up reversing his position once he had appreciated the weight of evidence.

Let's start with the actual facts about Ambrosiaster (a pseudonym given to him Erasmus, who recognized that he was an anonymous writer).
Waiting for your accepting the major correction on Ambrosius.

Waiting for you to acknowledge Dionysius of Alexandria, to go with Ambrosius and Pelagius.
I have his annotations, and in the annotations Erasmus says Ambrosius:

But if you press them with the consent of the interpreters, surely Ambrose, a most eminent and orthodox bishop, receives them separately

He clearly mistakes this author as the bishop of Milan. However, this Ambrosius is not Ambrose, but one whom we call Ambrosiaster (aka Pseudo-Ambrosius) because of this initial mistake. I have already said this reference exists already, and specifically that it was Erasmus who followed Ambrosiaster against the testimony of the Greek fathers:
No, it's correct. Erasmus writes, "This can be read in such a way that both belong to Christ, God and Saviour," (Id ita legi potest, ut utrumque pertineat ad Christum, Dei et Servatoris) but then he tries to work around it by appealing to Ambrosiaster, mistaking the interpolator as Ambrose himself (which Beza calls him out on). The individual is Ambrosiaster, which is an interpolator of the writings of Ambrose--a Latin writer and the only one who might appear to depart from the usual Greek and Latin understanding of the passage. He thus negates the attributive usage of τῆς δόξης. Erasmus found himself embroiled in endless controversy for this annotation.

I've already addressed Dionysius of Alexandria that the allusion to a passage involving Christ clearly favors that "Divine Lord" (I am speaking from memory) refers to Jesus. Unless you accept the allusion or provide a broader context, that passage is indeterminate.

Socinus simply followed Erasmus, and even used the Ambrosiaster quote, yet you hilariously claim that Socinus was the first one. Bizarro logic.
Similarly with your refusal to place Erasmus before Socinus on the non-identity interpretation of Titus 2:13. This is wacky, since Erasmus strongly preferred the non-identity understanding, and quoted Ambrosiaster. Socinus simply followed Erasmus, and even used the Ambrosiaster quote, yet you hilariously claim that Socinus was the first one. Bizarro logic.
But I never said that, did I? You won't even be able to find any of this in the search because you either have me confused with someone else, or you are flat out lying. I would also not use the name "Socinus," but Sozzini. You can run that through the search also.

I said already both here and in relation to Romans 9:5 that Erasmus was the source. In Titus 2:13, specifically, I noted:
Robert Witham (1733), Annotations on the New Testament of Jesus Christ, p. 298 (rightly notes Erasmus and Grotius as the instigators of confusion here)​
But here you are baselessly accusing me of arguing the opposite.

Do you really want to continue to confuse and deceive people by pretending Socinus was the originator of the non-identity position in modern times?
Stop putting words in my mouth--attributing arguments to me that I never made, and then using fabricated arguments to say I am deceiving people. It's considered defamatory. You don't even have a guise at this point to pretend you honestly misunderstood me, because these comments you attribute to me have been made up. Shame on you.

The following is an excellent study. I suggest a full read. I have inspected his conclusion and it is honest and correct:
All your comments are sourced from web articles and blogs, which certainly does not instill confidence in where you are getting your arguments from. But I'll read it when I have time.

You're learning! And it's not the only title which in certain books of the bible is the functional equivalent of a proper name.
I had this position before we ever conversed on the subject.
 
Continued from previous post
No, τῆς δόξης is the subject of the verbal idea expressed by the verbal noun ἐπιφάνειαν. You will find that τῆς δόξης is never indisputably used in the way that you want it here, in the Epistles of apostle Paul.
Once again, it seems to me that you are trying to re-invent the Greek grammar to accommodate your "Deity" idea.
The attributive genitive is an established usage of the genitive in the Greek grammars (Wallace, Köstenberger, Merkle, Plummer, Whitacre, al), so I am not "re-inventing the Greek grammar." And it's not that I am unaware of how you are reading it. I said your interpretation involves an oversimplistic view of the construction. An attributive construction involving τῆς δόξης may be found in about two thirds of all instances where it occurs in Paul's writings, so you are vastly overselling your point.

First of all, the euphony of the text strongly supports an attributive interpretation. Additionally, in the Greek Old Testament, μέγας is one of the words used to translate גִּבּוֹר, "mighty," such as we find in Isaiah 9:6 that Christ should be called אֵל גִּבּוֹר, "the mighty God." Moreover, Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ is most naturally in apposition to τοῦ μεγάλου θεοῦ καὶ σωτῆρος. The extant Greek fathers are unanimous in their understanding that Paul is calling Christ "great God," and not "the glory of the great God."

On the other hand, if you take τῆς δόξης as subjective "of the verbal idea expressed by the verbal noun ἐπιφάνειαν," then it could be understood as calling Christ "the glory" of our Great God and Saviour, or "our Great God and Saviour" himself--the latter option, again, being the most likely in this construction. In other words, IMHO your view improperly accents the passage.

Your source, Fee, actually begins with the presupposition that Paul would not call Christ "God" and makes no real grammatical argument. Every point is purely "exegetical," and relies on this one point. That is, as stated before, circular.

BTW, I thought you said previously that you didn't want to engage in theology here
I don't. But as Steven Avery appeared to misrepresent Chrysostom as taking an opposite position than he held, I quoted Chrysostom. Since Steven has already been informed on Chrysostom's position multiple times, it was already disingenuous to pretend otherwise. He's done this sort of thing in other forums as well.
 
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The simplicity of Winer is commanding. (The simplest arguments are always the best, of course.)

Winer p.162

In Tit. ii. 13, επιφάνεια τής δόξης τον μεγάλου θεου και σωτηρος ήμών
Ίησου Χρίστου.....the article is omitted before σωτήρος, because this word is defined by
the genitive ημών
, and because the apposition precedes the proper
name
: of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.'

Similarly in 2 Pt i. 1, where there is not even a pronoun with σωτήρος.

So also in Jude 4 we might suppose two different subjects to be referred
to, for κύριος, being defined by ήμών, does not need the article : Κύριον
ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν is equivalent to Ἰησοῦσ Χριστὸσ ος εστι κύριος ήμών. (In
2 Th. i. 12 we have simply an instance of κύριος for ό κύριος.)
 
Wilful abuse of the Attributive Genitive.

The attributive genitive can't insinuate any right to convert a noun into an adjective, as those votaries of 'glorious appearing' in Titus 2:13 make out.

Consider Mat 27:56 ......ἡ μήτηρ τῶν υἱῶν Ζεβεδαίου (the mother of the children of Zebedee)

This cannot be transposed into "the childish mother of Zebedee" (obviously);

but it is what happens when "the appearing of the glory of God" is transposed into "the glorious appearing of God."
 
I found the following comment by Brian to be rather bizarre:


“Wallace notes this in his grammar, that translation is not a good indicator. Since English lacks a qualitative construction, these are translated according to the idiom of the English language.”

Brian was referring to the following translations by the NET Bible when he made that comment —

The woman said to him, "Sir, I see that you are a prophet."
&

Jesus answered them, "I tell you the solemn truth, everyone who practices sin is a slave of sin.

First, I doubt very much that Wallace said the above (bold above) specifically about the translation of “these” two verses (that is, John 4:19, John 8:34). So it’s not a very honest paraphrase of what he actually did say. But more importantly , the relevant nouns in these two verses ( bold above) have not been translated according to an idiom, but with an indefinite semantic force, namely as “ a prophet,” and as “ a slave.” A translation according to “an idiom” would be what Wallace does at John 1:1c , when he renders the apparently “qualitative” θεὸς as follows:

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.”

So if Wallace does infact not take the relevant nouns at John 4:19 & at John 8:34 indefinitely, then his translation in both verses is deceptive at best .
 
Qualitative use of Θεός rejected in John 1:1c by Chrys C. Caragounis

From the diachronic standpoint it must be said that there is nothing
strange about the clause και θέος ήν ό λόγος It is perfectly normal. The
author wanted to emphasize Θεός, that is why he put that word first. It is
anarthrous because it is predicate. But this for a Greek does not mean "a
God" (which would have been Θεός τις or εις Θεός), nor does it mean "the
God" (ό Θεός). It means simply "God". The question of definite or indefinite
does not arise for a Greek in this context, because Θεός as predicate
denotes property or essence, not an individual. Thus, no question arises
as to whether the Logos is the only God or one of many. As for the qualitative
use,
apart from its liability to varying interpretations, it should
be rejected both because the existing θείος is not used, and because God
is a 'person' not an attribute.


The predicate is usually anarthrous, because it does not denote a
definite person or kind or class but only property or essence, which is
predicated of the subject. An example here is: Κΰρος έγένετο βασιλεύς
τών περσών "Kyros was made king of the Persians". This text is an exact
parallel to Jn 1,1c και Θεός ήν ό Λόγος or (in its ordinary form) και
ό Λόγος ήν Θεός. Although Kyros was the only king of the Persians,
the Hellene does not use the arthrous ό βασιλεύς but the anarthrous
βασιλεύς, exactly as Jn 1,1c. The clause Κύρος έγένετο ό βασιλεύς τών
Περσών was in itself possible, in which case the author would have had
some very special reason for going out of his way to emphasize that Kyros
was the only king of the Persians. Such a turn would be impossible for
Jn 1,1c.

Colwell's rule that "Definite predicate nouns which precede the verb
usually lack the article... a predicate nominative which precedes the verb
cannot be translated as an indefinite or a 'qualitative' noun solely because
of the absence of the article...", is formulated problematically, quite apart
from its misinterpretations, which have introduced even more confusion.
For even if we interpret it in the most benevolent fashion, the rule still
opens the way to treating Jn 1,1c as definite, which, as we have seen, it is
not. This is the reason why Wallace has to introduce his "sub-set proposition"
and his "convertible proposition".

However, his explanation that the anarthrous Θεός in Jn 1,1c seems to be definite,
because it refers to the same person (τον Θεόν, Jn 1,1b), is far off the mark (though,
imperceptively, here he comes dangerously close to Modalism). He is, however,
uncertain about this interpretation, because "the vast majority of definite
anarthrous pre-verbal predicate nominatives are monadic ... or proper
names, none of which is true here". Here we are on the wrong track.

The interpretation of "interchangeability" confuses the formulated
rule that "the article may be inserted if the predicate noun is supposed
to be a unique or notable instance" with word order, "which means that
it could just as well have read: ό λόγος ην ό θεός". But how can the
word Θεός" be unique, when the word as such in the Greek language
is used of many |ods? And why should the articular predicate be και ό
Λόγος (subject) ην ό Θεός (predicacte) and not και ό Θεός (predicate)
ην ό Λόγος (subject)? Depending on the context and emphasis, in Greek
either form could be correct.

Most scholars, it would appear, settle for the "qualitative" use of the
predicate. The problem with this explanation is that it opens the way
to substituting the noun Θεός with the adjective θείος.
Since Greek
does have an adjective to express qualitative significance, but does not
use it here, it is obvious that John's meaning cannot be expressed by
θειος. Instead, we need to understand the anarthrous Θεός as was defined
above, of that which distinguishes, demarcates, and defines God from
the various categories of creatures. Thus, it is unnecessary to interpret
Θεός qualitatively, i.e. "what God was the Word was", which is rather
inelegant, or use θείος i.e. "the Word was divine" and then try to produce
safeguards for what we mean by 'divine'.

When John wrote και Θεός ην ό Λόγος, he simply meant "and God
was the Word". This, expressed according to the English idiom, becomes:
"and the Word was God", although the emphasis of the original on Θεός
is gone. This is the best we can do in English, which, as has already been
hinted at, is not an adequate translation of the original. But the reason for
this, as we have seen above, is due to the fact that the uses of the Greek
article do not coincide with those of the English article.
.
.
.
From the diachronic standpoint it must be said that there is nothing
strange about the clause και θέος ήν ό λόγος It is perfectly normal. The
author wanted to emphasize Θεός, that is why he put that word first. It is
anarthrous because it is predicate. But this for a Greek does not mean "a
God" (which would have been Θεός τις or εις Θεός), nor does it mean "the
God" (ό Θεός). It means simply "God". The question of definite or indefinite
nite does not arise for a Greek in this context, because Θεός as predicate
denotes property or essence, not an individual. Thus, no question arises
as to whether the Logos is the only God or one of many. As for the qualitative
use, apart from its liability to varying interpretations, it should
be rejected both because the existing θείος is not used, and because God
is a 'person' not an attribute. From the theological point, too, we see
that John's use of Θεός (instead of ό Θεός) was not only grammatically
correct, but also reflected his theological conception. At the beginning,
when the Logos was, God was already there. John does not confuse the
Two. The Logos was God and yet he was not ilie God (which he reserves
for the Father). But that does not make him a whit less God than the
Father, for later in his Gospel he is going to use the dialectic statements
that "I and the Father are One" and '"The Father is greater than I". The
third clause shows a beautiful balance between the two and is the result
of mature reflection on the problem of Godhead.
__________________________________


Jan v.d. Watt. on Wallace's self-inflicted difficulties

The absence of the article in the pre-verbal predicate
nominative is the grammatical issue at stake in John 1:1c." The following
positions are inter alia taken, namely, those who see θεός as indefinite,
those who argue that θεός is definite, those who see the two nouns as
interchangeable, those who argue in favour of the qualitative use of θεός,
those who see it as idiom, and those who argue from theological points
of departure.
.
.
.
Contextually, Wallace points out that the use of θεός in 1,1b is articular and since the
same person is implied here, it most likely seems t o be definite. However,
Wallace101 argues against a definite use here on the following basis: "The
vast majority of definite anarthrous pre-verbal predicate nominatives a re
monadic, in genitive constructions, or are proper names, none of which
is true here, diminishing the likelihood of a definite θεός in Jn 1,1c".

d) Qualitative use
• The implication of Colwell's rule for John1,1c according to Wallace is as follows :
Since only one nominative substantive in John 1,1 has
an article (grammatical "tag " ) a subset proposition is envisaged here,
which means that the "λόγος "belongs to the larger category known as
"θεός". Wallace continues to explain that the force of the construction
most likely emphasizes the nature and not identity of the Word,
therefore , "the most likely candidate for θεός is qualitative". This
seems as if the word θεός is used in an adjectival sense. Wallace
also points out that before the article of Colwell most commentators
saw θεός as qualitative1 1 6 . "That is to say, the Word is true deity but
he is not the same person as the θεός metioned earlier in the verse";
in other words, the Word was God but he is distinct from the Father.

That the word becomes flesh mirrors the expression in John 1,1c,
emphasizing his nature rather than his identity . Wallace maintains
that both grammatically and theologically this is the better choice.

The fact that the Word is not the Father comes out clearly, although
they share the same essence. Qualitatively, the Word has all the "attributes
and qualities that 'the God' (of 1,1b) had" . Possible translations
would therefore be: "What God was, the Word was", or "the Word
was divine"9 (in which case a qualification is needed, namely, that
"divine" can be applied only to true deity). Even though Wallace is
convinced that God in 1,1c is qualitative, he still prefers the translation:
"the Word was God", since it creates the fewest possibilities for
misunderstanding. This preceding argument just goes to illustrate the
difficulty of translating this phrase.
 
He is a Trinitarian saying the same thing Trinitarians say at John 1:1c, but just trying to get away from the “qualitative” label. What is “essence” if not a qualitative use of the noun. There is no such thing as a “qualitative” θεός. θεός in the GNT is either definite (most of the time) or else indefinite.
 
He is a Trinitarian saying the same thing Trinitarians say at John 1:1c, but just trying to get away from the “qualitative” label. What is “essence” if not a qualitative use of the noun. There is no such thing as a “qualitative” θεός. θεός in the GNT is either definite (most of the time) or else indefinite.
The indefinite article (for which, where it seemed necessary
to express it, the Greeks used τῐς) is in particular instances
expressed by the (weakened) numeral εἰς: this usage is found
mainly in later Greek (Winer).
______________
Re Caragounis: his word "essence" is a strange word to use if his argument is that anarthrous θεός is not qualitative. I believe Caragounis retains that word only as a sop to Trinitarians. His main idea is that anarthrous θεός incorporates the properties of God, but I'm not sure if that encapsulated the whole idea.

If θεός is monadic, which it must be if it is sourced from Jewish theology, then θεός
cannot ever be indefinite without an indefinite article, or unless there is an express or implied derogration from the θεός in heaven to something else, i.e. θεός being applied to humans (John 10:24-36), or to a false god.

E.g. in no sense is anarthrous θεός indefinite in Θεὸς ἦν ἐν Χριστῷ (2 Cor 5:19).

The only transition that anarthrous θεός in heaven could ever be capable of vis-a-vis articular θεός in heaven is God in a state of being or existing as a person (the Father) (articular θεός) to God in a state of doing (anarthrous θεός), just because θεός is monadic. God in a state of doing must retain all the properties of God.

The solution must offer theological coherence. Jn 1:1c would therefore suggest, "God the Father acted through the Word implying that the Word's whole existence is predicated on the Father" which is coherent with other apostolic passages.
 
The simplicity of Winer is commanding. (The simplest arguments are always the best, of course.)
Winer p.162

In Tit. ii. 13, επιφάνεια τής δόξης τον μεγάλου θεου και σωτηρος ήμών
Ίησου Χρίστου.....the article is omitted before σωτήρος, because this word is defined by
the genitive ημών
, and because the apposition precedes the proper
name
: of the great God and of our Saviour Jesus Christ.'
Look, another intentionally deceptive quotation. Now go back and add the footnote where Winer admits that his theology is the cause of his grammatical analysis here.
Similarly in 2 Pt i. 1, where there is not even a pronoun with σωτήρος.

So also in Jude 4 we might suppose two different subjects to be referred
to, for κύριος, being defined by ήμών, does not need the article : Κύριον
ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦν Χριστὸν is equivalent to Ἰησοῦσ Χριστὸσ ος εστι κύριος ήμών. (In
2 Th. i. 12 we have simply an instance of κύριος for ό κύριος.)
In all of this he also tips his hand where he said "κύριος, being defined by ήμών, does not need the article." He knew that his remarks had nothing to do with whether or not the article could be used. The proof may be seen in I Th. 3:11 which has the same construction with the article "αὐτὸς δὲ ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ ἡμῶν καὶ ὁ κύριος ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦς".
 
Look, another intentionally deceptive quotation. Now go back and add the footnote where Winer admits that his theology is the cause of his grammatical analysis here.
Doesn't add much

"In the above remarks it was not my intention to deny that, in point of grammar, Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν may be regarded as a .second predicate, jointly depending on the article τοῦ; bur the dogmatic conviction derived from Paul's writings that this apostle cannot have called Christ the great God induced me to show that there is no grammatical obstacle to our taking the clause καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ by itself, as referring to a second subject. As the anonymous writer in Tholuck's Lit, Anz. (1837, No. 5) has not proved that my explanation of this passage would require a second article before Σωτῆρος (the parallels adduced are moreover dissimilar, see Fritz. Rom. II. 268), and still less that to call Christ μέγας θεός would harmonise with Paul's view of the relation of Christ to God, I adhere to the opinion expressed above. Any unprejudiced mind will at once perceive that such examples as are adduced in g 19. 2 prove that the article was not required with Σωτῆρος and the question whether Σωτῆρος is σωτήρ is elsewhere applied to God is nothing to the purpose. It is sufficient that Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν, our Saviour, is a perfectly definite predicate,—as truly so as " "his face" : πρόσωπον indeed is applied to many more individuals than σωτήρ is!"

The naysayers have to prove that Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ requires a second article to disprove Winer. This they cannot do from grammar.
 
I have no idea what you are talking about. I didn't attack "Ambroisius" at all.

You should try to remember what you write.

No, it's correct. Erasmus writes, "This can be read in such a way that both belong to Christ, God and Saviour," (Id ita legi potest, ut utrumque pertineat ad Christum, Dei et Servatoris) but then he tries to work around it by appealing to Ambrosiaster, mistaking the interpolator as Ambrose himself (which Beza calls him out on). The individual is Ambrosiaster, which is an interpolator of the writings of Ambrose--a Latin writer and the only one who might appear to depart from the usual Greek and Latin understanding of the passage.

I corrected you here

Here you get everything wrong.

=========================

Let's start with the actual facts about Ambrosiaster (a pseudonym given to him Erasmus, who recognized that he was an anonymous writer).

The Identity of the Ambrosiaster: A Fresh Suggestion (1914)
Alexander Souter
https://books.google.com/books?id=ZGFFVAJLqosC&pg=PA224
https://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/expositor/series8/07-224.pdf

But it happens that it contains so many interesting statements, and is of such special excellence, that a knowledge of the author would
be a real help in the assignment of its place among the historical documents belonging to its period.

The real importance of the three works is now gradually coming to be recognised, since Harnack wrote of the author: “ We ought to call him the great unknown ; for what Western expositor of the early period or the Middle Ages is his equal ? ” “ Both works [the Commentary and the Quaestionos] are admirable in their kind, and perhaps the most distinguished product of the Latin Church in the period between Cyprian and Jerome.” Julicher is no less hearty in his admiration : “ His exposition of the letters of Paul is not only important by reason of many interesting notes on the history of dogma, morals and government, but is also the best written prior to the sixteenth century.”

=========================

The Significance of Ambrosiaster (2009)
David G. Hunter
https://www.academia.edu/1435143/The_Significance_of_Ambrosiaster

Ambrosiaster’s significance as a biblical exegete, the author of the first complete commentary on the Pauline epistles, was already signaled by Souter, who cited Harnack’s opinion that Ambrosiaster’s writings were “the most distinguished product of the Latin Church in the period
between Cyprian and Jerome”
: “We ought to call him the great unknown,” wrote Harnack, “for what Western expositor of the early period or the Middle Ages is his equal?”9

There is now universal agreement that these data are best explained if both the Quaestiones and the Pauline commentary were originally issued
anonymously; the ancient attributions to Hilary, Ambrose, and Augustine were probably just educated guesses at our author’s identity.15

But ignorance of Ambrosiaster’s real name does not mean that we know nothing about him. In the commentary on 1 Timothy Ambrosiaster spoke of “the church whose rector at present is Damasus,” which places the Pauline commentary roughly between the years 366 and 384.17 As we will see shortly, the numerous contacts between Ambrosiaster and Jerome enable us to narrow Ambrosiaster’s floruit to the later years of Damasus’s pontificate, that is, to the early 380s. There is little doubt that the author composed his works at Rome: in Q. 115 he spoke of being “here in the city of Rome and its environs” and in the commentary on Romans he spoke similarly.18 .... We have, then, both a secure location and a fairly specific date for both the Quaestiones and the commentary.

=========================

In the Souter writing you can see many of the conjectures about his identity. Including Hilary, Augustine, Ambrose, Evagrius, Isaac the Jew, and more, although now we are more restricted in geography and date.

Your nonsense about the supposed interpolator is simply your picking up a flaky idea and running with it because the truth does not fit your narrative. Tacky.

Ambrosiaster is a solid and very significant writer, in some ways he is rated above Ambrose.

You never retracted or defended your nonsense about his being simply an "interpolator of the writings of Ambrose", when he actually an esteemed writer of the 4th century, before Ambrose, albeit anonymous.

I have his annotations, and in the annotations Erasmus says Ambrosius:

But if you press them with the consent of the interpreters, surely Ambrose, a most eminent and orthodox bishop, receives them separately

He clearly mistakes this author as the bishop of Milan. However, this Ambrosius is not Ambrose, but one whom we call Ambrosiaster (aka Pseudo-Ambrosius) because of this initial mistake. I have already said this reference exists already, and specifically that it was Erasmus who followed Ambrosiaster against the testimony of the Greek fathers:

Erasmus referenced Ambrosiaster, and considered his analysis as superior. Erasmus was totally honest about the fact that some early church writers supported identity for the verse.

You tried to attack and disparage this writing by Ambrosiaster saying it was just an "interpolator of the writings of Ambrose", for which I have seen no references at all. It looks like you just made that up, and never checked the scholarship.
 
Doesn't add much
If you aren't joking, the alternative explanations for your statement are unflattering but almost certainly true.
"In the above remarks it was not my intention to deny that, in point of grammar, Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν may be regarded as a .second predicate, jointly depending on the article τοῦ; bur the dogmatic conviction derived from Paul's writings that this apostle cannot have called Christ the great God induced me to show that there is no grammatical obstacle to our taking the clause καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ by itself, as referring to a second subject. As the anonymous writer in Tholuck's Lit, Anz. (1837, No. 5) has not proved that my explanation of this passage would require a second article before Σωτῆρος (the parallels adduced are moreover dissimilar, see Fritz. Rom. II. 268), and still less that to call Christ μέγας θεός would harmonise with Paul's view of the relation of Christ to God, I adhere to the opinion expressed above. Any unprejudiced mind will at once perceive that such examples as are adduced in g 19. 2 prove that the article was not required with Σωτῆρος and the question whether Σωτῆρος is σωτήρ is elsewhere applied to God is nothing to the purpose. It is sufficient that Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν, our Saviour, is a perfectly definite predicate,—as truly so as " "his face" : πρόσωπον indeed is applied to many more individuals than σωτήρ is!"

The naysayers have to prove that Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ requires a second article to disprove Winer. This they cannot do from grammar.
I don't know what remarks Winer was responding to and have no interest in it, so I won't comment on that. Winer's conclusion is a valid possibility for understanding the text, but his grammatical arguments for supporting his conclusion about the omission of the article in Tit. 2:13 aren't valid. The latter of these two assertions can not be successfully contested. The fact that the exact same remarks could be used to explain why the article WAS used in I Th. 3:11 proves the point!
 
And if one wants to get nit-picky and argue about the fact that I Th. 3:11 denotes two separate individual with two different articles, my rebuttal will preemptively be Rev. 4:11 ἄξιος εἶ, ὁ κύριος καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν, where it is clear from the singular verb εἶ that a single individual is referenced and that the article is found before then noun despite its being modified by genitive ἡμῶν. It is clear that Winer's reasons for the omission of the article don't support his conclusion.
 
The fact that the exact same remarks could be used to explain why the article WAS used in I Th. 3:11 proves the point!
No Χριστος or σωτήρ in the mGNT version of the text. That might explain it: you might want to include an article to make it clear that it is "The Lord Jesus."
 
"In the above remarks it was not my intention to deny that, in point of grammar, Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν may be regarded as a .second predicate, jointly depending on the article τοῦ; bur the dogmatic conviction derived from Paul's writings that this apostle cannot have called Christ the great God induced me to show that there is no grammatical obstacle to our taking the clause καὶ Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ by itself, as referring to a second subject. As the anonymous writer in Tholuck's Lit, Anz. (1837, No. 5) has not proved that my explanation of this passage would require a second article before Σωτῆρος (the parallels adduced are moreover dissimilar, see Fritz. Rom. II. 268), and still less that to call Christ μέγας θεός would harmonise with Paul's view of the relation of Christ to God, I adhere to the opinion expressed above. Any unprejudiced mind will at once perceive that such examples as are adduced in g 19. 2 prove that the article was not required with Σωτῆρος and the question whether Σωτῆρος is σωτήρ is elsewhere applied to God is nothing to the purpose. It is sufficient that Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν, our Saviour, is a perfectly definite predicate,—as truly so as " "his face" : πρόσωπον indeed is applied to many more individuals than σωτήρ is!"

The naysayers have to prove that Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ requires a second article to disprove Winer. This they cannot do from grammar.

And that is impossible.

Calvin Winstanley really destroyed the supposed rules in 1805.

A vindication of certain passages in the common English version of the New Testament: Addressed to Granville Sharp, esq., author of "Remarks on the ... in the Greek text of the New Testament" Unknown Binding – January 1, 1805
Calvin Winstanley

Interestingly, in one section Winstanley used the theme I had mentioned earlier, showing constructions that really could not have an article even if they were two subjects.

There are at least three cases, in which the article cannot be repeated after the copulative, whether the nouns express identity or diversity of persons or things. p. 18

Thus the dichotomy of Sharp of Rule 1 and Rule 6 (earlier I said Rule 4, now corrected) is falsified. Unless someone can refute the exposition of Calvin Winstanley, which afaik has never happened.

Here is Rule Six, the inverse of Rule One

Your sixth rule is,
If both the nouns, connected by the copulative, have the article, they relate to different person.

There is no more truth in this rule than in the preceding one. You should have said, the nouns are distinct appellations, or attributes, generally of different persons, but sometimes of the same person. You have, in part, acknowledged this, by saying, “except distinct and different actions are intended to be attributed to one and the same person, that is, as far as may be discovered by the context.” But there frequently occur passages, in which neither the context, nor the grammatical construction, nor any thing present, without a previous acquaintance with the usual application of the terms, can enable us to determine whether one person, or two, be intended; as, ... (continues)
p. 13

============================

Daniel Wallace acknowledged Winstanley, e.g.

"The most formidable foe to Sharp's rule was Calvin Winsfanley"
https://books.google.com/books?id=XlqoTVsk2wcC&pg=PA273

However Wallace avoided dealing with the substance of his writing, with the use of very selective extracts and ellipsis "...."

============================

Calvin Winstanley

These rules are all founded on the presence or the absence of the copulative or the article; and nothing can be more imperfect than such rules. Both the copulative and the article are frequently suppressed by authors, and must be supplied by the reader’s understanding. As this can only be done by attending to the context, and sometimes to the signification of the words employed, so far as the construction (the presence or absence of the copulative, for instance,) from being always the sole guide to sense, that an apprehension of the sense must frequently precede our knowledge of the construction; as when we have to determine, whether two personal nouns of the same case, gender, &c.. in immediate connexion, are in concord or apposition, and, therefore, relating to the same person, or not.
p. 3-4

============================
 
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No Χριστος or σωτήρ in the mGNT version of the text. That might explain it: you might want to include an article to make it clear that it is "The Lord Jesus."
A noun is a noun and, still yet, both σωτήρ and κύριος can be used in exactly the same ways. You have even said as much! What explains your arguing over the facts I've presented is your desire to accept something that is not true.
 
A noun is a noun and, still yet, both σωτήρ and κύριος can be used in exactly the same ways. You have even said as much! What explains your arguing over the facts I've presented is your desire to accept something that is not true.
I'm not sure if you're grasping Winer's point, and I'm not sure if I understood your point.

Winer's point was the necessity for the article to be linked to σωτήρ, not χριστός Ἰησοῦς, which doesn't need the article asa proper name with appositive. There might have been a good reason for not using an article here with σωτήρ, because Jesus being σωτήρ couldn't exclude the Father from being σωτήρ also. May be Paul didn't want to exclude the Father. So he felt Σωτῆρος ἡμῶν Χριστοῦ Ἰησοῦ was the right nuance.

Contrariwise, Jesus is definitely o κύριος, to the exclusion of the Father. Hence the distinction.
 
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