Two Greatest Wonders/Miracles of the Universe

But also because the language is different to the letters thought to be his.
Very subjective differences. I think back on my thousands of posts over the years and how I describe things differently depending upon my audience, my purpose, my subject, my point to be made, my emotional state at the moment, and even what I ate or drank the night before. Anyone could go through those posts and nitpick the differences to make an argument that I am not the same person writing them. This is essentially the method of their analysis.

But if they disagree with the beliefs in his real letters that is indeed evidence he did not write them.
The disagreements are subjective. They are not black and white opposites. It is more like, “Why did Paul say that over there and then say this over here? Oh, I know, because this letter is a forgery” based merely on the erroneous assumption it contains gnostic ideas and gnostic teachings cannot be christian. IOW, they start with a bad assumption then build a case around it using very subjective evidence. It may seem substantially like a lot of evidence but remove the original assumption and the whole argument falls like a house of cards.

That is why conclusions must be weighed based on the evidence supporting them (versus taken as absolutes). Because if new evidence is discovered, (EG., DEAD SEA SCROLLS, NAG HAMMADI, CUNEFORM TABLETS, ROSETTA STONE, ETC.) then it also must be weighed in with the other evidence and the original conclusion must be either thrown out or affirmed. In this case, the original conclusion that the letters are forgeries MUST be thrown out because the DSS PROVE without any doubt that the original prechristian (pre-Paul, Peter, James, and John) Jewish-Christians held and explicitly taught gnostic tenets!
 
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Very subjective differences. I think back on my thousands of posts over the years and how I describe things differently depending upon my audience, my purpose, my subject, my point to be made, my emotional state at the moment, and even what I ate or drank the night before. Anyone could go through those posts and nitpick the differences to make an argument that I am not the same person writing them. This is essentially the method of their analysis.


The disagreements are subjective. They are not black and white opposites. It is more like, “Why did Paul say that over there and then say this over here? Oh, I know, because this letter is a forgery” based merely on the erroneous assumption it contains gnostic ideas and gnostic teachings cannot be christian. IOW, they start with a bad assumption then build a case around it using very subjective evidence. It may seem substantially like a lot of evidence but remove the original assumption and the whole argument falls like a house of cards.

That is why conclusions must be weighed based on the evidence supporting them (versus taken as absolutes). Because if new evidence is discovered, (EG., DEAD SEA SCROLLS, NAG HAMMADI, CUNEFORM TABLETS, ROSETTA STONE, ETC.) then it also must be weighed in with the other evidence and the original conclusion must be either thrown out or affirmed. In this case, the original conclusion that the letters are forgeries MUST be thrown out because the DSS PROVE without any doubt that the original prechristian (pre-Paul, Peter, James, and John) Jewish-Christians held and explicitly taught gnostic tenets!
Of course these are subjective. We do not know, we can only try to work it out, and different people will do that in different way. Your view that they were authored by Paul is just as subjective.

However, there are at least three good reasons for thinking they are forgeries.

The first is that the language is very different. More details can be found in the first link below.

The second as that these letters talk about the resurrection of Christians already having happened, while the real letters look forward to a resurrection in the future.

The third is that these letters make clear women are inferior to men, whilst Paul's authentic letters show he considered them equal.


 
Of course these are subjective. We do not know, we can only try to work it out, and different people will do that in different way. Your view that they were authored by Paul is just as subjective.

However, there are at least three good reasons for thinking they are forgeries.

The first is that the language is very different. More details can be found in the first link below.

The second as that these letters talk about the resurrection of Christians already having happened, while the real letters look forward to a resurrection in the future.

The third is that these letters make clear women are inferior to men, whilst Paul's authentic letters show he considered them equal.


I am not going to go read Ehrman’s blog. I request you pick one or two alleged “smoking guns” or black and white alleged contradictions and present them here. Let us weigh the evidence here and now. Quote the verses that appear to contradict one another.
 
Arguably, the two greatest miracles in the universe are right in front of us and quite common, which may be why we despise them so much because we tend to only value the rare or unique.

Without further ado:

The second greatest wonder of the universe arguably is the birth of a healthy baby on planet earth who develops into an intelligent human being. Therefore, seven billion humans are the second greatest wonder in the universe.​

What is the single greatest miracle/wonder in the universe?

The birth of a moral consciousness on planet earth which develops and grows a soul to love and reason with perfection. A soul committed to never harm others. A soul happy in all circumstances because inner virtues are a possession that can never be taken away.​

The reason I mention this is to dispel the idea that the apostles claimed themselves to actually raise decomposing human bodies from the dead, actually spontaneously healed people of diseases with the wave of a hand (or handkerchief or hem of a robe), or actually cast out independent evil entities from the human body. For if the religious conscience can perceive the two greatest wonders of the universe then a moral teacher can become a miracle worker!

For example,
“The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with utmost patience, with signs and wonders and mighty works.” (2 cor. 12:12)​
I posit to to you that the apostles described themselves as miracle workers for raising (“from the dead”) the moral consciousness in individuals to live holy lives before God, —the greatest WONDER/MIRACLE of the universe; and LATER followers subsequently invented fanciful stories, mythical stories, spectacular stories of magic and power over nature to elevate the apostles in the eyes of the natural man unable to perceive the actual wonders in front of them, because they are common.
Well, I'm not sure about all that. Some interesting things for sure.

The Psalmist gave the best wonder I think.

What is man that you are mindful of him?

That still remains somewhat of a wonder, though the new covenant goes a long way to explain it.
 
Well, I'm not sure about all that. Some interesting things for sure.

The Psalmist gave the best wonder I think.

What is man that you are mindful of him?

That still remains somewhat of a wonder, though the new covenant goes a long way to explain it.
I would go further and say that the moral soul is the “man” that the Lord (spirit of Jesus) has in mind. Not the physical body. The true Good God has no use for carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, etc., that make up the flesh of man. But a virtuous soul is a thing he can be friends with.
 
I am not going to go read Ehrman’s blog. I request you pick one or two alleged “smoking guns” or black and white alleged contradictions and present them here. Let us weigh the evidence here and now. Quote the verses that appear to contradict one another.
If you cannot be bothered to read the arguments, I doubt anything will dissuade you.

With regards to contradictions, do you think Paul believed women were equal to men or inferior? I will see if I can find verses that indicate otherwise. Likewise, do you think Paul believed the resurrection for him and fellow Christians was still to come or had already happened?
 
If you cannot be bothered to read the arguments, I doubt anything will dissuade you.
I read it, …and, it is as I said, subjective opinion only. Put up against actual reason and/or evidence it falls like a house of cards. I don’t follow Ehrman but if this is a representation of his character it suggests cowardice on his part for he implies Paul is a misogynist without ever accusing him of being one himself. Instead, he asserts others accuse him of being one and he adds, Oh, let me tell you why THEY call him a misogynist. Ehrman is a coward to hide behind others for the purpose of impugning Paul, or in this case, the alleged forger of Paul.

It is why I said I don’t want to read Ehrman’s blog because I would then be debating Ehrman (as I have just done) rather than discussing the topic with you.

With regards to contradictions, do you think Paul believed women were equal to men or inferior? I will see if I can find verses that indicate otherwise.
Absolutely, Paul saw all humans as equal in Christ. His letter to the Galatians makes that clear. (Gal. 3:28)

Since you seem to think (based on Ehrman’s blog) that Paul’s statement in Ephesians about women makes him a misogynist then let me briefly state the obvious point that refutes Ehrman.

Paul could be an egalitarian in the absolute sense of Christ being the center of the universe holding all things together which was the basis of writing what he did in his letters to the Galatians about everyone being equal.

On the other hand, Paul could also be a pragmatist knowing that in the real world social structure serves a practical benefit to decide difficult issues among humans. Right? Even among liberal social democracies where humans are considered equal we still SUBMIT to authorities in order to avoid paralyzation due to disagreement among equals. IOW, at the end of the day somebody has to make the decision when humans disagree. Somebody gets to be the authority that the majority agree to submit to. It keeps things moving.

In the same way, the family is the smallest social unit of any society and probably the most important one. So even in the marriage among equals, husband and wife, someone must make the final call on difficult decisions. If the husband agrees it should be the wife then so be it. Maybe the wife is the wiser, smarter one of the two. But for the sake of unity and moving forward one person must assume that role. In Paul’s cultural context lacking government social services and no birth control resulting in most woman being the primary caregiver at home then men usually took the role as executive decision maker. Therefore, Paul says, “wives”, for the sake of unity and moving forward, “submit to your husband” as the executive decision maker. This is better for the family, for the church, and the nation.

No where in Paul’s epistle to the Ephesians is this an absolute rule, as in every situation, for all time, but generally, in the culture and times of the audience Paul was writing too. Paul had no crystal ball showing him about you and I reading his letter and possibly concluding he must be a misogynist because of all the single moms, broken families, and absentee fathers our social government takes care of, —those individuals doing just “fine” without a wife submitting to her husband. (a bit of sarcasm there was intended).

Likewise, do you think Paul believed the resurrection for him and fellow Christians was still to come or had already happened?
Briefly, there are TWO resurrections.

First, the rising “Spirit of Jesus”, aka, moral consciousness, in all humans to varying degrees, in which Christ Jesus never leaves us and is always among us.

Second, the bodily resurrection of Christ Jesus when his “body”, the structure of the cosmos, is remade to be a body of light, ordered, perfect, and eternal.

Therefore, it depends on which resurrection Paul has in mind when he is writing. In the first, the presence or coming (Greek: parousa) is always happening, always here, especially given that souls are continuously turning to the spirit of Jesus, growing that moral consciousness arising within them, surrendering to good, truth, justice, and love in their daily choices. These are those through whom Christ Jesus is among us forever and always.

The second resurrection happens at the end of time when all the heavenly host are gathered in. At that time all the virtuous souls that have ever lived will arise BODILY (made of light) to receive their eternal inheritance.
 
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I would go further and say that the moral soul is the “man” that the Lord (spirit of Jesus) has in mind. Not the physical body. The true Good God has no use for carbon, hydrogen, oxygen, nitrogen, etc., that make up the flesh of man. But a virtuous soul is a thing he can be friends with.
Are gnostics always so mundane?
 
I read it, …and, it is as I said, subjective opinion only.
As opposed to your subjective opinion that Paul wrote them.

Put up against actual reason and/or evidence it falls like a house of cards. I don’t follow Ehrman but if this is a representation of his character it suggests cowardice on his part for he implies Paul is a misogynist without ever accusing him of being one himself. Instead, he asserts others accuse him of being one and he adds, Oh, let me tell you why THEY call him a misogynist. Ehrman is a coward to hide behind others for the purpose of impugning Paul, or in this case, the alleged forger of Paul.
I think you are confusing the two links. One was to an article by Ehrman, the other was about whether Paul was a misogynist.

It is why I said I don’t want to read Ehrman’s blog because I would then be debating Ehrman (as I have just done) rather than discussing the topic with you.


Absolutely, Paul saw all humans as equal in Christ. His letter to the Galatians makes that clear. (Gal. 3:28)
So if a supposed letter by Paul indicated women were inferior, that would be evidence it was not written by Paul. And Eph 5 clearly states that women must submit to their husbands. Husbands have to love their wives, but not submit to them. There is no parity here. No equality.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

It was not written by a man who believed women are equal to men. They were written by a man who wanted women put in their place, and used the name "Paul" to promote his agenda,

Since you seem to think (based on Ehrman’s blog) that Paul’s statement in Ephesians about women makes him a misogynist then let me briefly state the obvious point that refutes Ehrman.
A. Again, you are confusing the article by Ehrman and the second article I linked to.

B. The point is that Paul was NOT a misogynist.

Paul could be an egalitarian in the absolute sense of Christ being the center of the universe holding all things together which was the basis of writing what he did in his letters to the Galatians about everyone being equal.

On the other hand, Paul could also be a pragmatist knowing that in the real world social structure serves a practical benefit to decide difficult issues among humans. Right? Even among liberal social democracies where humans are considered equal we still SUBMIT to authorities in order to avoid paralyzation due to disagreement among equals. IOW, at the end of the day somebody has to make the decision when humans disagree. Somebody gets to be the authority that the majority agree to submit to. It keeps things moving.
None of that rationalises Paul saying women must submit to their husbands,

In the same way, the family is the smallest social unit of any society and probably the most important one. So even in the marriage among equals, husband and wife, someone must make the final call on difficult decisions. If the husband agrees it should be the wife then so be it. Maybe the wife is the wiser, smarter one of the two. But for the sake of unity and moving forward one person must assume that role.
I find it curious that Paul's thinking is so modern and yours is stuck in the nineteenth century.

Telling women to submit to men is not equality.

In Paul’s cultural context lacking government social services and no birth control resulting in most woman being the primary caregiver at home then men usually took the role as executive decision maker. Therefore, Paul says, “women”, for the sake of unity and moving forward, “submit to your husband” as the executive decision maker. This is better for the family, for the church, and the nation.

No where in Paul’s epistle to the Ephesians is this an absolute rule, as in every situation, for all time, but generally, in the culture and times of the audience Paul was writing too. Paul had no crystal ball showing him about you and I reading his letter and possibly concluding he must be a misogynist because of all the single moms, broken families, and absentee fathers our social government takes care of, —those individuals doing just “fine” without a woman submitting to her husband. (a bit of sarcasm there was intended).
Paul had no problem stating men and women are equal.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This verse is also notable, as he lists the woman first:

Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus.

This is not a man wo believed Priscilla should submit to Aquila; this is a man who considered them equal.

I earlier said:
Likewise, do you think Paul believed the resurrection for him and fellow Christians was still to come or had already happened?
No comment?

You spent most of your post slagging off Ehrman, but end up ignoring what he actually said!
 
As opposed to your subjective opinion that Paul wrote them.


I think you are confusing the two links. One was to an article by Ehrman, the other was about whether Paul was a misogynist.


So if a supposed letter by Paul indicated women were inferior, that would be evidence it was not written by Paul. And Eph 5 clearly states that women must submit to their husbands. Husbands have to love their wives, but not submit to them. There is no parity here. No equality.

Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
Col 3:18 Wives, submit yourselves to your husbands, as is fitting in the Lord.

It was not written by a man who believed women are equal to men. They were written by a man who wanted women put in their place, and used the name "Paul" to promote his agenda,


A. Again, you are confusing the article by Ehrman and the second article I linked to.

B. The point is that Paul was NOT a misogynist.


None of that rationalises Paul saying women must submit to their husbands,


I find it curious that Paul's thinking is so modern and yours is stuck in the nineteenth century.

Telling women to submit to men is not equality.


Paul had no problem stating men and women are equal.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

This verse is also notable, as he lists the woman first:

Romans 16:3 Greet Priscilla and Aquila, my co-workers in Christ Jesus.

This is not a man wo believed Priscilla should submit to Aquila; this is a man who considered them equal.



No comment?

You spent most of your post slagging off Ehrman, but end up ignoring what he actually said!
And apparently you missed the point that even among social democracies where everyone is considered equal, everyone SUBMITS to someone. Therefore, exhorting a wife to submit to her husband in Paul’s culture and time is no different than you telling me to submit to local government authority. There is a practical benefit to social structure especially when complex or difficult situations need to be made.

BTW, did you miss the clause just prior to the one being discussed where Paul writes, “submitting to one another” (5:21). What are we to take from that? If submitting to someone else is evil, as you seem to think, then, in your opinion, is Paul promoting tyranny everywhere?
 
B. The point is that Paul was NOT a misogynist.
You have missed the point completely. Ehrman is concluding that Ephesians is a forgery based not least on the clause, ”Wives, submit to your husbands” as if that is some great evil perpetuated on wives in all places for all time. He is making a mountain out of nothing but sage advice in any culture and anytime, that is, in a marriage of equals, somebody must make the call when there is a disagreement. This is reality. This is common sense (Apparently not too common).

Here I am again debating Ehrman (or what Ehrman said) rather than discussing what you think. Which is why telling others to go read something rather than putting it in your own words is not a good idea. Tell me why you think it is such a great evil for a marriage of equals to have one submit to the other. Are you married? Better yet, why do YOU think the letter to Ephesians is a forgery. Your suggestion that it was a forgery started these most recent posts. Ehrman became a distraction.
 
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And apparently you missed the point that even among social democracies where everyone is considered equal, everyone SUBMITS to someone.
All equal, but some are more equal than others. Got it.

Therefore, exhorting a wife to submit to her husband in Paul’s culture and time is no different than you telling me to submit to local government authority. There is a practical benefit to social structure especially when complex or difficult situations need to be made.
If you think the two are equivalent we will just have accept our positions are just too dissimilar to be able to discuss this.

BTW, did you miss the clause just prior to the one being discussed where Paul writes, “submitting to one another” (5:21). What are we to take from that? If submitting to someone else is evil, as you seem to think, then, in your opinion, is Paul promoting tyranny everywhere?
I never said it was evil, I said it was unequal. That you need to mischaracterise my position is further evidence that discussion is not possible.
 
All equal, but some are more equal than others. Got it.
Nope, all equal SUBMITTING (there is that word again) to a social system facilitating the decision making process.

If you think the two are equivalent we will just have accept our positions are just too dissimilar to be able to discuss this.
If you say so.
I never said it was evil, I said it was unequal. That you need to mischaracterise my position is further evidence that discussion is not possible.
If you say so. But the main reason it is even brought up at all is to imply something bad otherwise, who cares?
 
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