Two trans athlete questions

Crazy Ivan said:
It's not really about paying to watch. It's about trans women being allowed to compete against biological women *because if they aren't, it will cause mental health issues and devalue trans people as human beings* (which is the argument being used), but the impact on Lia Thomas competing is that Thomas wins a championship over an actual biological female. We can sit on the outside and say it's no big deal, who cares, it's just sports. But just as it's a big deal to Thomas to be able to compete as a woman, it's also a big deal to the biological women who feel robbed by Thomas being able to compete against them.

You haven't heard the myriad of dissenters in the NCAA women's swimming community that are not remotely content with this? That 16 of Thomas' own TEAMMATES petitioned the NCAA to not allow her to swim?

And while people may not identify as women *just so they can win in sports*, clearly some athletes are putting winning as a priority over anything else, which undermines the entire argument we're being told in bold above.
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It's not an argument I subscribe to. I am a strong believer in the rights of trans gender people, including their right to play sport. However, I am also a strong believer in sport as a fair competition. It is on the governing bodies to produce regulations that allow fair competition. That excludes some people from some sports. Caster Semenya was banned from participating in certain female Olympic events because of naturally occurring hormone levels. She wasn't happy about it, but she moved to a different distance and competed where she could within the rules. That is what transgender athletes in all sports can do, if the governing bodies get their act together.

There is a lot of froth and nonsense whipped up on both sides of this argument. It is a fact of human existence that a small minority of people will feel uncomfortable in the bodies that biology has given them. Some cultures have welcomed and celebrated such people. Others acknowledge their existence, but discriminate against them. Others have treated them as freakish celebrities. I would like to live in a culture where everyone can live as the person they want to be without being scoffed at, shunned or denounced. That sort of culture is closer than it was, almost in reach, and I welcome that. But there are still pockets of opposition, which will, I believe, dwindle away in time. Frenzied argument over something as inconsequential as the hormone levels in a particular sportsperson, don't help anybody.
 
BMS said:
No such thing as transgender people. People are either male or female or intersex. Pixies and fairies arent real. Lets be inclusive and let women win their own races.
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Would you agree that intersex people who identifies as female be allowed in sports? You recognize intersex people, so this is a yes?
 
BMS said:
people cant change their sex. they couldn't before I read your post and they cant after I have read your post. Sport is bigger than the lie of gender identity, it will recover
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It doesn't matter whether you think that people cannot change their sex or that I think that they can. It makes no difference. Society has decided that people can change their gender. The issue here is accommodating that change fairly into sport.
 
BMS said:
There is no such thing as 'transwomen' and women, just women and men and intersex. Lia Thomas is a man. As soon as we start using this contradictory language we pay lip service to the stupidity.
Lia Thomas didnt win the race because it was a women's race and Lia Thomas is a man. It IS the emperor's new clothes.
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Froth and nonsense. This is not the issue here. Your opinion on who should be treated as a woman is not relevant.
 
Temujin said:
It's not an argument I subscribe to. I am a strong believer in the rights of trans gender people, including their right to play sport. However, I am also a strong believer in sport as a fair competition. It is on the governing bodies to produce regulations that allow fair competition. That excludes some people from some sports. Caster Semenya was banned from participating in certain female Olympic events because of naturally occurring hormone levels. She wasn't happy about it, but she moved to a different distance and competed where she could within the rules. That is what transgender athletes in all sports can do, if the governing bodies get their act together.

There is a lot of froth and nonsense whipped up on both sides of this argument. It is a fact of human existence that a small minority of people will feel uncomfortable in the bodies that biology has given them. Some cultures have welcomed and celebrated such people. Others acknowledge their existence, but discriminate against them. Others have treated them as freakish celebrities. I would like to live in a culture where everyone can live as the person they want to be without being scoffed at, shunned or denounced. That sort of culture is closer than it was, almost in reach, and I welcome that. But there are still pockets of opposition, which will, I believe, dwindle away in time. Frenzied argument over something as inconsequential as the hormone levels in a particular sportsperson, don't help anybody.
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Makes no sense. People are either men or women or intersex. That is an observable reality. When you say 'trans gender people' that doesnt make them not the male or female or intersex they are, it just means you may be lying to us about them. Women are the most abused group in humanity and men pretending to be women is not a right but literally a wrong.
Quite the opposite of froth, the denial of the basic humanity that your ideology is, is a division in society that society cant exist with.
Cycling has already banned men calling themselves transwomen, and hopefully now all sports will follow.
 
JosephLeo said:
Let's all be inclusive to everyone. We all have our opinions, but let the final decision be on the governing body and just accept it. Transgender people are really a small minority and not all are athletes. It's not that you're going to see so many transgenders in sports which is very unlikely. It's rare, if not none.
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Hear hear.
 
Temujin said:
Then they will be changed, to reflect the needs of competitors, not your bruised sensibilities.
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Yes, the needs of women as opposed to men calling themselves transwomen. Facts don't care about your gender identity lie.
 
BMS said:
No such thing as transgender people. People are either male or female or intersex. Pixies and fairies arent real. Lets be inclusive and let women win their own races.
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Your personal limitations are not really the issue here. People don't need your agreement in order to exist.
 
Temujin said:
Your personal limitations are not really the issue here. People don't need your agreement in order to exist.
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The reason there is no such thing is because all people are men or women or intersex, not because Temujin is confused.
Facts don't care about your feelings.
 
Temujin said:
Froth and nonsense. This is not the issue here. Your opinion on who should be treated as a woman is not relevant.
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Here is your problem. If you cant recognise what a woman is, people wont be able to recognise what you say.
 
BMS said:
Makes no sense. People are either men or women or intersex. That is an observable reality. When you say 'trans gender people' that doesnt make them not the male or female or intersex they are, it just means you may be lying to us about them. Women are the most abused group in humanity and men pretending to be women is not a right but literally a wrong.
Quite the opposite of froth, the denial of the basic humanity that your ideology is, is a division in society that society cant exist with.
Cycling has already banned men calling themselves transwomen, and hopefully now all sports will follow.
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You are confused. Cycling has banned a particular athlete from a particular event. Your broad brush denial of reality is not a solution. Each sport needs to determine who can compete fairly and who cannot. This is not achieved by thoughtless dogma such as you portray.
 
One possibility could be that all women cease to take part in any event where there is a man calling himself a 'transwoman'
Then we will only have men winning men's and women's events.
 
Temujin said:
This is not achieved by thoughtless dogma such as you portray.
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Facts dont care about your feelings.
Answer me this, if you think a woman can have a penis and a cervix, can a man have a penis and a cervix?
 
BMS said:
One possibility could be that all women cease to take part in any event where there is a man calling himself a 'transwoman'
Then we will only have men winning men's and women's events.
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Unfortunately for you, most sports people are decent individuals and very supportive of others.
 
BMS said:
Facts dont care about your feelings.
Answer me this, if you think a woman can have a penis and a cervix, can a man have a penis and a cervix?
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I have answered this ludicrous question once. That you ask it again is more revealing of your personal ignorance than anything else.
 
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