Two trans athlete questions

[Crazy Ivan]

Let's all be inclusive to everyone. We all have our opinions, but let the final decision be on the governing body and just accept it. Transgender people are really a small minority and not all are athletes. It's not that you're going to see so many transgenders in sports which is very unlikely. It's rare, if not none.

So on the Yale women's swim team, Thomas is one transgender person. Not allowing her to swim as a woman negatively impacts one person - Thomas. But allowing her to swim as a woman affects all kinds of other people. 16 teammates wrote a letter asking the NCAA to not allow her to swim as a woman. And virtually all the women on the team are uncomfortable with Thomas being in the locker room.

https://torontosun.com/news/world/transgender-swimmer-lia-thomas-teammates-uncomfortable-sharing-locker-room-with-her-report

"Transgender University of Pennsylvania swimmer Lia Thomas’ teammates reportedly are uncomfortable changing in the locker room with her.

“It’s definitely awkward because Lia still has male body parts and is still attracted to women,” a teammate, who spoke anonymously, told the Daily Mail.

The amount of nudity in the locker room has prompted her peers to voice their concerns to coaches, suggesting that she be moved to another change room, the teammate said.

“Multiple swimmers have raised it, multiple different times,” the swimmer said. “But we were basically told that we could not ostracize Lia by not having her in the locker room and that there’s nothing we can do about it, that we basically have to roll over and accept it, or we cannot use our own locker room.”

She added that neither Thomas nor the university seem to care about how the rest of the team feels about the change room situation.

“The school was so focused on making sure Lia was OK, and doing everything they possibly could do for her, that they didn’t even think about the rest of us,” the teammate told the Daily Mail.

“It just seems like the women who built this program and the people who were here before Lia don’t matter. And it’s frustrating because Lia doesn’t really seem to be bothered by all the attention, not at all,” she said. “Actually she seems like she enjoys it. It’s affected all of us way more than it’s affected her.”

The swimmer told the Daily Mail that out of the 35 teammates, only two or three are fine with their current situation."


So yeah, excluding Thomas from the women's team (while allowing her to compete against men) impacts ONE person, but including Thomas on the women's team impacts 30+ teammates and then opponents who she routinely crushes in competition.

So is it right to change the rules for (in this case) one athlete - who still could compete as an NCAA swimmer, just against the men she HAD been competing against for several years already - while negatively impacting literally dozens of others?

 

[vibise]

Here's exactly what @sbailey2356 wrote: "Title IX wasn't written when there was a biological distinction between gender and sex."

That doesn't mean that @sbailey2356 is saying that "the biology has changed", no matter how much you want to claim otherwise. Or, you know, you could simply point-blank as that poster what, exactly, they meant, and they can clear it up for you. I mean, sure, maybe you're right - maybe they think that actual human biology has changed in the last 50 years, that chromosomes and cells and DNA actually work different now than they used to a generation ago. That's possible. I think it's unlikely, but since neither you nor I are that poster, why not just ask them?

As to your last point (bolded portion), I didn't say that. What I think has happened is that a more "open and affirming of LGBTQ" society probably has led SOME people who would otherwise have not come out as LGBTQ to actually come out, yes. But also (and primarily) that a more open and affirming society and culture has influenced people to BE LGBTQ. The whole idea that people are born trans is nonsense. People identify as trans for a host of reasons, not because they're born that way. So the more society affirms being transgender, the more it's socially "cool" or whatever, and the more people are going to be like, yeah, I'm trans. When really they probably aren't.

I disagree with your last point. I know two transgenders. One of them, as a child of 4-5, when asked what they wanted to be when they grew up, would always respond "a man". And that child never wavered from that need. The family of that child is intact and loving and the other kids are cis-gender. I cannot imagine what societal forces could be held responsible for this.

 

[vibise]

So on the Yale women's swim team, Thomas is one transgender person. Not allowing her to swim as a woman negatively impacts one person - Thomas. But allowing her to swim as a woman affects all kinds of other people. 16 teammates wrote a letter asking the NCAA to not allow her to swim as a woman. And virtually all the women on the team are uncomfortable with Thomas being in the locker room.

https://torontosun.com/news/world/transgender-swimmer-lia-thomas-teammates-uncomfortable-sharing-locker-room-with-her-report

"Transgender University of Pennsylvania swimmer Lia Thomas’ teammates reportedly are uncomfortable changing in the locker room with her.

“It’s definitely awkward because Lia still has male body parts and is still attracted to women,” a teammate, who spoke anonymously, told the Daily Mail.

The amount of nudity in the locker room has prompted her peers to voice their concerns to coaches, suggesting that she be moved to another change room, the teammate said.

“Multiple swimmers have raised it, multiple different times,” the swimmer said. “But we were basically told that we could not ostracize Lia by not having her in the locker room and that there’s nothing we can do about it, that we basically have to roll over and accept it, or we cannot use our own locker room.”

She added that neither Thomas nor the university seem to care about how the rest of the team feels about the change room situation.

“The school was so focused on making sure Lia was OK, and doing everything they possibly could do for her, that they didn’t even think about the rest of us,” the teammate told the Daily Mail.

“It just seems like the women who built this program and the people who were here before Lia don’t matter. And it’s frustrating because Lia doesn’t really seem to be bothered by all the attention, not at all,” she said. “Actually she seems like she enjoys it. It’s affected all of us way more than it’s affected her.”

The swimmer told the Daily Mail that out of the 35 teammates, only two or three are fine with their current situation."


So yeah, excluding Thomas from the women's team (while allowing her to compete against men) impacts ONE person, but including Thomas on the women's team impacts 30+ teammates and then opponents who she routinely crushes in competition.

So is it right to change the rules for (in this case) one athlete - who still could compete as an NCAA swimmer, just against the men she HAD been competing against for several years already - while negatively impacting literally dozens of others?

I agree that Thomas should be gracious and use a private change room, and going forward, perhaps there should be more private change rooms available.

But the larger question here is - should the majority get to dictate the actions of a minority?

 

[JosephLeo]

So on the Yale women's swim team, Thomas is one transgender person. Not allowing her to swim as a woman negatively impacts one person - Thomas. But allowing her to swim as a woman affects all kinds of other people. 16 teammates wrote a letter asking the NCAA to not allow her to swim as a woman. And virtually all the women on the team are uncomfortable with Thomas being in the locker room.

Like I said, we all have differing opinions, let the governing body make the final decision.

By the way, the Dailymail is a well known fake news generator. It's not something I want as a reference though.

 

[BMS]

I disagree with your last point. I know two transgenders.

Are they male or female or intersex?

One of them, as a child of 4-5,

Child abuse. All consensus of medical and scientific studies show that children cannot understand such concepts at the age of 4-5, unless some pervert has put that idea in their heads. Even 79-94% of children who experience dysphoria with their sex will no longer do so after puberty.

 

[BMS]

I agree that Thomas should be gracious and use a private change room, and going forward, perhaps there should be more private change rooms available.

But the larger question here is - should the majority get to dictate the actions of a minority?

He should use the men's room, that is what it is for, men.

But the larger question here is, if people cant recognise what they are then people can pretend to be anyone they want

 

[BMS]

I have answered this ludicrous question once. That you ask it again is more revealing of your personal ignorance than anything else.

Nope, you havent answered it. You cant answer it because with your ideology where a man and a woman can have both penis and vagina, there is no longer any way you can describe the difference between a man and a woman. Indeed even saying it where someone identifies as a man or a woman is meaningless because you need to be able to describe what they are. I could identify as a car if I mean man.

 

[Temujin]

Nope, you havent answered it. You cant answer it because with your ideology where a man and a woman can have both penis and vagina, there is no longer any way you can describe the difference between a man and a woman. Indeed even saying it where someone identifies as a man or a woman is meaningless because you need to be able to describe what they are. I could identify as a car if I mean man.

Word salad. You completely misrepresent both my argument and your own. You are wasting everyone's time with this nonsense.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

I disagree with your last point. I know two transgenders. One of them, as a child of 4-5, when asked what they wanted to be when they grew up, would always respond "a man". And that child never wavered from that need. The family of that child is intact and loving and the other kids are cis-gender. I cannot imagine what societal forces could be held responsible for this.

The truth of my general point isn't invalidated by your very small sample of anecdotes. Of course there are SOME people who are trans from the outset, but the reason for the sharp RISE in trans cases is societal in nature.

 

[Crazy Ivan]

I agree that Thomas should be gracious and use a private change room, and going forward, perhaps there should be more private change rooms available.

But the larger question here is - should the majority get to dictate the actions of a minority?

Or...should the desires of ONE person outweigh the desires of dozens of others?

As for the changing rooms...I agree, but if we do that, trans advocates will cry foul, big time. You know this to be true.

 

[BMS]

Word salad. You completely misrepresent both my argument and your own. You are wasting everyone's time with this nonsense.

Touched a nerve have I?
You cant tell us how, if a man can have a penis or a vagina and a a woman can have a penis or a vagina, one can possibly describe what they are identifying as.
The ideology you are peddling is a lie.

 

[Temujin]

Gende identity is a lie.

Do you have a personal sense of being male? Every other person I have ever met can answer this question without any trouble. Why can't you? Could it possibly be your unsupportable assertion that "Gende (sic) identity is a lie."?

 

[BMS]

Like I said, we all have differing opinions, let the governing body make the final decision.

By the way, the Dailymail is a well known fake news generator. It's not something I want as a reference though.

The events are split by male and female biological sex and always have been. At the moment men are being allowed to take part in women's events which means they are no longer women's events.
The Daily Mail reports cant change this reality. The fake is your position because it denies biological sex and the rights of women.
Well done the Daily Mail on this.

 

[BMS]

Do you have a personal sense of being male? Every other person I have ever met can answer this question without any trouble. Why can't you? Could it possibly be your unsupportable assertion that "Gende (sic) identity is a lie."?

Just told you ( on the other thread)
I have a sense of the male biological sex I am.
Explain to us how a man can have a sense of being what they arent? A woman or a giraffe perhaps?
Gender Identity is a lie

 

[BMS]

Do you have a personal sense of being male? Every other person I have ever met can answer this question without any trouble. Why can't you? Could it possibly be your unsupportable assertion that "Gende (sic) identity is a lie."?

Too scared to admit that if a man can have a penis and a vagina, which he cant, and woman xan have either which she cant, how you can describe what the male is you are asking I have a sense of ?
I do have a sense of reality and can spot the lie that this is.

 

[Temujin]

Just told you ( on the other thread)
I have a sense of the male biological sex I am.

Thank you, at last!
That personal sense of the biological male that you are is your gender identity. Everyone has one.

Explain to us how a man can have a sense of being what they arent? A woman or a giraffe perhaps?
Gender Identity is a lie

Do you have any references to anyone who has a personal sense of being a giraffe? Or did you just bring in a bit of nonsense in attempt to camouflage the rest of the nonsense you are posting?
Your gender identity matches your biological sex, as does most people's. For some people this is not the case. Their personal sense of who they are does not match their biology. This is described frequently, but not entirely accurately as gender dysphoria. Some people like this accept their discomfort and the difficulties that it brings. Others decide to live as the person they feel they are rather than be dictated to by their biology. Society has decided that they have the right to do so, and this right is enshrined in law, and in official documents such as passports.

Some people think that biology is more important than civilised behaviour or personal self actualisation. Society increasingly condemns such thinking as transphobic. Where you stand on this issue is a matter of opinion, shaped by your personal experiences and beliefs. For me, I welcome the direction that society has taken on this issue. It is heartening to see that trans rights are now accepted as homosexual rights have been for decades. The attitudes of society, particularly young people, are good to see.

 

[Temujin]

Too scared to admit that if a man can have a penis and a vagina, which he cant, and woman xan have either which she cant, how you can describe what the male is you are asking I have a sense of ?
I do have a sense of reality and can spot the lie that this is.

You are talking about random hypotheticals that have no bearing on the issue. I see no reason to run down this rabbit hole into fantasy land.

 

[BMS]

Thank you, at last!
That personal sense of the biological male that you are is your gender identity. Everyone has one.

I have the sense of the sex I am, but that is the biology, not the imaginary gender identity.
Explain how someone has a sense of what they arent.

 

[BMS]

You are talking about random hypotheticals that have no bearing on the issue. I see no reason to run down this rabbit hole into fantasy land.

Not at all. It is the question that you cant answer because it exposes your position as a lie. Nothing to do with hypothetical, Lia Thomas is a man.

 

[BMS]

Do you have any references to anyone who has a personal sense of being a giraffe?

Of course not because someone cant have a sense of being what they arent. That includes a man having a sense of being a woman that he isnt.
I asked you to explain it.