Yahchristian
Well-known member
TRINITARIANS, just to clarify your doctrine…
Was the “Son of Man” ever in heaven before his resurrection?
John 3:13… No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Was the “Son of Man” ever in heaven before his resurrection?
- Thread starter Yahchristian
- Start date
TRINITARIANS, just to clarify your doctrine…
Was the “Son of Man” ever in heaven before his resurrection?
John 3:13… No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
Runningman
Well-known member
A flesh and blood man didn't literally descend from the sky. We already know he was born in a house or perhaps a manger in Bethlehem.
The bit about the Son of Man being the one who descended from heaven must be interpreted as God's predestination and foreknowledge manifesting.
CrowCross
Well-known member
How does one get born in a manger? Do you know what a manger is?
Secondly Jesus wasn't born in a house. Jesus was more than likely born in a cave where animals were kept.
It was about a year later we learn that Jesus was moved to a house before the wise men showed up.
Why must it be? The bible says the Word was with God....which would mean the Word was in heaven...and then became flesh....Baby Jesus born in Bethlehem.
Yes. But not that He was a human being in heaven before His earthly birth. He did ascend as a human being to heaven though, although glorified.
Yahchristian
Well-known member
So if the "Son of Man" does NOT refer to a "human being"...
What do YOU say the term refers to?
@jamesh could you please help your fellow TRINITARIAN out here.
Runningman
Well-known member
Matthew 2
11On coming to the house, they saw the Child with His mother Mary, and they fell down and worshiped Him. Then they opened their treasures and presented Him with gifts of gold and frankincense and myrrh.
Jesus isn't the Word that was with God. That's your error.
Read 1 John 1:1-3. What does it say? In the beginning the Word of Life was a thing the disciples could see, hear, and touch. The Word of Life manifested in a man.
Does that even register with you? Does it change any thing?
Here's a hint: words are a human
Tanachreader
Well-known member
After the birth they went to Jerusalem
Then obviously went back home to Nazareth where the Magi visited some time later.
Herod killed the children 2 years and under.
And when the days for their cleansing according to the Law of Moses were fulfilled, they brought Him up to Jerusalem to present Him to the Lord.
That is what He is called!
Revelation 19:13
and being clothed with a garment dipped in blood, His name is also called The Word of God.
Nonsense
When John wrote his words in John 1:3 (and his entire gospel) in the year 98 AD, Jesus had already ascended to heaven about 65 years ago.
In any case, many Bible scholars consider that the angel of Jehovah who cared for the Israelites, and who with a temporary physical body of man carried out many missions for Jehovah, and who delivered many divine messages, was Jesus Christ himself. So it is understood that Jesus did come down to earth and ascend to heaven many times before being born as a human.
Exo. 23:20 “I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you on the way and to bring you into the place that I have prepared. 21 Pay attention to him, and obey his voice. Do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgressions, because my name is in him. 22 However, if you strictly obey his voice and do all that I say, I will show hostility to your enemies and oppose those who oppose you. 23 For my angel will go ahead of you and will bring you (...)"
Our Lord's God
Well-known member
Most of those scholars are Trinitarian. They think those were "Christophanies."
It shouldn't be...
Jesus Christ is a man, a human being. Human beings do not preexist their conception.
Why don't you believe what it says, that it was an angel?
Runningman
Well-known member
Just curious what angle you’re playing here. So after numerous proof texts that you use to allege Jesus is God get debunked, why do you think anything you say could suddenly change anything? Do you believe the Bible has contradictions?
Even God is called a man of war (Exo 15:3). It doesn't mean He is a man. So if God became flesh, does that mean God was already a human being? However He would be the same entity.
Exodus 15:3 (KJV) The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
But I would say Jesus is called d the Son of Man preincarnate due to His mission to be the Son of Man.
Michael is "NOT" the son of man" because he's an actual angel, clueless one. What are you now, a Jehovah's Witness? What Bible verse says Michael is the son of man?
IN GOD THE SON,
james
You misread him. He was responding to Lilel01, who is a JW, and does believe that Michael was the "preincarnate Christ."
Tanachreader
Well-known member
What makes you think you have debunked scripture? It have been Christianity since the beginning when John wrote it.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God.3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.
13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
CrowCross
Well-known member
Where was the manger? In front of the fireplace or dining room table?
That's what the bible says. It clearly says the Word was God...in fact the Word was also with God....then the bible says the Word became flesh.
yes, Jesus was the Word...God come in the flesh.
A common occurrence with that poster. Quick to pounce, slow to read with comprehension.
If Michael was the prince of Daniel's people before Christ, like the angel said Daniel here:
Dan. 10:21 However, I will tell you the things recorded in the writings of truth. There is no one strongly supporting me in these things but Michael, your prince.
... what is the problem with him also being, under the name of Jesus, the King of the new nation of God?
Dan. 12:1 “During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.
Daniel 12:1 refers to true Christians as modern "Daniel's people", not modern Jews.
Do you consider yourself part of the modern "people of Daniel" who have this great prince as their leader at this time?
Dan. 10:21 However, I will tell you the things recorded in the writings of truth. There is no one strongly supporting me in these things but Michael, your prince.
... what is the problem with him also being, under the name of Jesus, the King of the new nation of God?
Dan. 12:1 “During that time Michael will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.
Daniel 12:1 refers to true Christians as modern "Daniel's people", not modern Jews.
Do you consider yourself part of the modern "people of Daniel" who have this great prince as their leader at this time?
The problem is that Jesus Christ is a man, not an angel.
No it isn't. It refers to Israel.
Since your supposition is wrong, your question is moot.
Jesus was a spirit person next to God, a different person with his own identity. He came down to earth for a mission.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
You can believe it, or not, but it's written.
John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god. 2 This one was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence 4 by means of him was life (...) 14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father; and he was full of divine favor and truth. (...) 18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is at the Father’s side is the one who has explained Him.
You can believe it, or not, but it's written.