What is Faith?

There is only one university in the UK with a chair in parapsychology.
There is probably no university in the UK with a chair on Scientific Evidence for the Christian God.

wif: Btw, I already live my life according to Christian principles, not because they they are specifically Christian, but because they are good principles that Christianity has adopted.

ec: I have a hunch you pick and choose what Christian principles you live by though. Do you live according to the Christian principles on sex?
 
There is probably no university in the UK with a chair on Scientific Evidence for the Christian God.
That's because there isn't any, it's not a subject science can investigate.
wif: Btw, I already live my life according to Christian principles, not because they they are specifically Christian, but because they are good principles that Christianity has adopted.

ec: I have a hunch you pick and choose what Christian principles you live by though. Do you live according to the Christian principles on sex?
Yes I pick and choose, for example, I don't live by the principles outlined in the Bible in how to treat slaves.
 
Everytime someone becomes a Christian after learning about the BB theory.
How does this confirm the existence of the supernatural?
Becoming a Christian means that one accepts that it is true, not that it is true.
Once you convert you start having a relationship with Him, confirming His existence.
El Cid said:
That is my whole argument. My argument is inductive. The argument to the best explanation, I am not arguing that I can prove God or the supernatural only that it is the most likely explanation.
"Most likely" based on what data?
Logical reasonng.
We would need a population of previous "right vs wrong"s, and we don't even have one confirmed case of the supernatural.
Actually there are millions that have confirmed His existence through experience.
 
Once you convert you start having a relationship with Him, confirming His existence.
What would cause one to convert, if not knowledge of his existence?

"Know he exists,
convert,
know he exists"

?
Logical reasonng.
Anybody can say that about any conclusion they reach. Watch:

"Your god most likely does not exist. Logically speaking."

Likelihood is based on data, and assertions of likelihood require data.
Actually there are millions that have confirmed His existence through experience.
And more than twice as many that have not.
Be careful when appealing to popularity.

Also, by "confirmed case of the supernatural", I mean confirmed in the sense that evidence is exhibitable to others.

An LSD users doesn't "confirm" that pink dragons were crawling on their bedroom ceiling during their latest trip.
 
We were talking about evidence that the universe is supernatural, the above doesn't seem related to that. However, if that's true then isn't that a point against a God? If everything can be explained, then there's no need for a God to explain everything.
I never said the universe is supernatural. The inorganic aspects were created using His natural laws. I said its origin is supernatural. A theory of everything would just show that we understand all the laws of physics or nature. And so actually that would help us to recognize even better when something occurs because of a suspension of those laws, ie a supernatural event.
 
I never said the universe is supernatural. The inorganic aspects were created using His natural laws. I said its origin is supernatural.
Then the universe can't be natural.
A theory of everything would just show that we understand all the laws of physics or nature. And so actually that would help us to recognize even better when something occurs because of a suspension of those laws, ie a supernatural event.
If that theory of everything showed how the universe exists due to its own nature, then that God was responsible is no more than a speculation.
 
If I may intrude:

The best explanation may still be one that we shouldn't accept. For instance, if we assign likelihoods of being true to several hypotheses that attempt to explain some phenomenon, and those likelihoods are H1 = 10%, H2 = 15%, H3 = 20%, hypothesis 3 is the best explanation, but it is still likely not true.

This is why I'm not a fan of abduction (which is what I think you're talking about, not induction). It doesn't really matter, the only thing that matters is if we have sufficient evidence to set the likelihood of so me hypothesis that would explain some observations to over 50%. Under 50%, it's likely not true. Over 50%, it's likely true.
You are right, I meant to say abductive reasoning. But you seem to misunderstand it. Abductive reasoning IS reasoning to the most likely explanation which by definition is over 50%.
 
The problem here is how can you escape your own conclusion? How could you ever know that naturalism isn't true, and everything you think is just your brain state, not the weighing of evidence?
No, I am not denying that is possible, but my point is that if naturalism is true, then arguing for it is a self refuting argument.
 
Again, the words in bold are not justified. If naturalism is true, then physical events (mutations and natural selection among a population of apes) created a physical object (the human brain) which has the capacity to do things like weigh evidence.
How do you know it has that capacity? You are assuming what you are trying to prove again.
You're assuming that somehow this means that the weighing of evidence either doesn't exist or is unreliable. How does that follow? If there is a chain of causes, in which an underlying cause gives rise to a more immediate cause, the immediate cause does not thereby become irrelevant or gratuitous.

Certain events happen in my brain; I remember that I've left a book I need in the house; I experience a desire to get into my house and retrieve that book; I put the correct key in the door and turn it correctly; the door opens. It makes no more sense to say "your desire to get into the house is just based on your brain state, and not on what you remembered and wanted" then it does to say "the door getting opened is just based on your desire to get the book, and not on the key being turned." If I didn't have that brain state, I wouldn't have remembered to go back and get the book; if I hadn't remembered to go back and get the book, I wouldn't have put the key in the door; if I hadn't turned the key, the door wouldn't have opened.

If all of these steps are required, including the last step, then you can't say that the last step didn't matter or shouldn't be counted as a cause. This is true of a step like "weighing evidence" as well as it is of a step like "turning the key."
The weighing of evidence would require the brain to operate according to the laws of logic, but if it is just physical brain states then it is only operating according to the laws of physics. While there is some minor overlap between the two, overall they are two very different things.
 
How do you know it has that capacity?
You claimed that if naturalism were true, and chemical events gave the brain the capacity to make judgments, then naturalism was self-refuting; I said no, if naturalism is true, and chemical events gave the brain the capacity to make judgments, it would not be self-refuting. It makes no sense at all for you to respond, "how do you know that naturalism is true, and that chemical events give the brain the capacity to make judgments"!

You are assuming what you are trying to prove again.
But I'm not trying to prove the truth of naturalism, I'm only trying to show that your particular criticism of it is wrong.

The weighing of evidence would require the brain to operate according to the laws of logic, but if it is just physical brain states then it is only operating according to the laws of physics. While there is some minor overlap between the two, overall they are two very different things.
When you say that the brain "operates according to the laws of physics," you presumably mean certain physical activities (in accordance with physical laws) cause the brain to enter certain physical states; and that's a reasonable summary of what the naturalist would say. So when you say that in weighing evidence, the brain "operates according to the laws of logic," do you mean "logical activities (in accordance with logical laws) cause the brain to weigh evidence and reach conclusions"? That wouldn't be what a naturalist would say, because "logic" in itself isn't something which can cause anything to happen, certainly not in the naturalistic view of things.

Perhaps a better summary of the naturalist position is that certain physical activities (in accordance with physical laws) cause the brain to enter certain physical states; that those physical states cause sentient states; and that those sentient states include such things as weighing evidence. In other words, sentience is an emergent property of physical brain states. And it may be the case that an emergent property operates according to laws which are not present in the stuff that causes those properties to emerge. Moving water acts according to laws of fluid dynamics; but there is no fluidity, let alone laws of fluid dynamics, in hydrogen atoms and oxygen atoms.

Now it may well be that you just find the naturalist position about the mind being an emergent property of brain chemistry entirely implausible; you wouldn't be alone in thinking so. But even if it were an implausible position, that wouldn't make it a self-contradictory position. "Brain states cause sentient states; sentient states allow us to pretty reliably weigh evidence and make decisions" is not a self-evidently inconsistent claim. It really makes no more sense to say "if naturalism is true, there's no such thing as weighing evidence, there's just brain chemistry" than it does to say "if physics is right, there's no such thing as water in motion, there's just molecules."

Do you agree or disagree with this: "If there is a chain of causes, in which an underlying cause gives rise to a more immediate cause, the immediate cause does not thereby become irrelevant or gratuitous."
 
The weighing of evidence would require the brain to operate according to the laws of logic, but if it is just physical brain states then it is only operating according to the laws of physics. While there is some minor overlap between the two, overall they are two very different things.
If the mind transcends the brain, why do we have brains?
 
You are right, I meant to say abductive reasoning. But you seem to misunderstand it. Abductive reasoning IS reasoning to the most likely explanation which by definition is over 50%.
As long as "most likely" is understood such an explanation we accept must be over 50%, then we agree, but it's unfortunate that the words "most likely" can also be quite reasonably interpreted to mean, for instance, an explanation for which we are only, say, 35% certain, given that that explanation is the "most likely" of all the other candidates (perhaps at 30%, 25%, 15%, etc.).
 
No, contrary to Richard Carrier and yourself, investigation has not eliminated the possibility of the supernatural.
You are ignoring this part of what Carrier said:
Every explanation has a shot at becoming evidentially respectable and thus restored to the status of serious consideration. It simply has to pass this one procedural test.
This explicitly keeps the possibility of the supernatural open. It just has to produce sufficient evidence.
Why does the supernatural have an extra hurdle to jump? That in itself is a bias. So it appears he is lying about not having a bias against it.
El Cid said:
Of course, as even the Bible teaches, a supernatural explanation should be concluded only after all other natural causes have been logically eliminated.
The tough part is making sure all possible causes are accounted for.
Yes, but that is what good science entails look at all possibilities even supernatural ones without bias. I am not saying that once you come to the conclusion that it is probably supernatural, doesnt mean that it is not tentative to revising this conclusion.
 
Brain states and apprehending the truth (or brain states and weighing evidence) might not be mutually exclusive, although perhaps you can demonstrate that they are mutually exclusive.
Brain states are based on the laws of chemistry and physics, apprehending the truth is based on the laws of logic, two very different things.
 
Why does the supernatural have an extra hurdle to jump? That in itself is a bias. So it appears he is lying about not having a bias against it.
There is no extra hurdle there, nothing that the natural hadn't had to surmount, so no bias for the natural against the supernatural.

Yes, but that is what good science entails look at all possibilities even supernatural ones without bias.
Sure, but there is also the tentative conclusion - just like any scientific conclusion - that the supernatural doesn't exist. That'll change when evidence says so, and we must stay open to the possibility of that evidence.

I am not saying that once you come to the conclusion that it is probably supernatural, doesnt mean that it is not tentative to revising this conclusion.
 
Brain states are based on the laws of chemistry and physics, apprehending the truth is based on the laws of logic, two very different things.
But the whole issue is whether the laws of logic can be instantiated (or, apprehended) by something based in the laws of chemistry and physics, so to merely say that the two are very different doesn't get you where you want to go. You still have to demonstrate that it is impossible, not just that the two are very different.
 
No, I am not denying that is possible, but my point is that if naturalism is true, then arguing for it is a self refuting argument.
How can you know this, because naturalism could be true and what you've thought here is just your brain state.
 
Again, the words in bold are not justified. If naturalism is true, then physical events (mutations and natural selection among a population of apes) created a physical object (the human brain) which has the capacity to do things like weigh evidence.
You are assuming what you are trying to prove again.
You're assuming that somehow this means that the weighing of evidence either doesn't exist or is unreliable. How does that follow? If there is a chain of causes, in which an underlying cause gives rise to a more immediate cause, the immediate cause does not thereby become irrelevant or gratuitous.
komodo: Certain events happen in my brain; I remember that I've left a book I need in the house; I experience a desire to get into my house and retrieve that book; I put the correct key in the door and turn it correctly; the door opens. It makes no more sense to say "your desire to get into the house is just based on your brain state, and not on what you remembered and wanted" then it does to say "the door getting opened is just based on your desire to get the book, and not on the key being turned." If I didn't have that brain state, I wouldn't have remembered to go back and get the book; if I hadn't remembered to go back and get the book, I wouldn't have put the key in the door; if I hadn't turned the key, the door wouldn't have opened.
If all of these steps are required, including the last step, then you can't say that the last step didn't matter or shouldn't be counted as a cause. This is true of a step like "weighing evidence" as well as it is of a step like "turning the key."
Yes, the relations between physical states are cause and effect, but the relation between premises and conclusions are not cause and effect they are a logical relation of inference. So your example above may be possible with naturalism but not reasoning and the weighing of evidence.
 
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