Why Jews will never accept Jesus

[tbeachhead]

Actually, you've been given verses that explain it all.

So was Daniel forgiven without a temple?

We both know Daniel was forgiven by virtue of his prayer of intercession...He confessed as his own the sins of the nation, though he had not participated in a single one. In that, he prefigured Jesus' own intercession you seem to have such difficulty with. And yet...here's the Christian response:

No...because he was under the blood of the Messiah he foresaw. That is why it is written "I desire chesed and not sacrifice...the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings." Knowledge of God, you rightly point out, comes from the Holy Spirit alone, and He was poured out on Shavuot. Yet you think this change came without a price, without provision. And still the soul that sins will also perish, without provision. Everyone needs a savior, and that has been provided once and for all.

 

[tbeachhead]

Aaah, okay. Unfortunately many eastern religions have mystical experiences too.

Yep...and even there Jesus is known. My friends working in Islamic countries are often accosted by neighbors who come to them because Jesus directed them in a dream. It's as Joel said.

Yep, a lifetime of study.

Clearly...

Okay, I just thought you had strong opinions like everyone else.

I have strong opinions...like you do. Some have formed opinions AFTER they studied. They make for the best conversations. Which brings me back here. It's been a long time since I've had this much fun.

 

[Jewjitzu]

The context was the seder...and this was his last. He did not ask to have wine shoved in His face...you're looking for nits again. Don't swallow the camel.

Don't swallow the wine as Jesus did and break your vows.

Wrong. But you knew I'd say that. Which part of the statement "...there is no commandment..." did you miss?

Read Numbers 6.

Not according to the testimony of eye witnesses. You're making stuff up now on your own presumption. You have to. You have egregious error to maintain.

No, you mentioned the Romans. Where's that evidence?

Like a Mighty Wind, Mel Tari. Revival in Indonesia Kurt Koch. Kurt Koch is a well known heresy hunter of the late 20th century who went to debunk the goings on and witnessed the miracles. He also went to KwaSizabantu in Zululand in South Africa and wrote Revival among the Zulus. You don't have to believe anything until the evidence has satisfied you. The witness is strong.

So is forgery.

Personally, I knew Mel Tari's father-in-law. He was my professor of "Old Testament" (sorry) Studies in seminary. He also translated the Tanakh in the New American Standard Bible. I met Erlo Stegen, the pastor involved in KwaSizabantu and a team of Zulus when they came to Paris, and heard their testimonies first hand. I helped interpret back and forth from French to English for him when friends were asking questions. I found no reason not to believe.

I find no reason to believe.

Because context compels me...It was the seder. He had vinegar shoved in his face.

The vow was only about wine. He drank at the cross and is guilty.

He asked for a drink. He did not vow not to ask for a drink. "15My strengthc is dried up like a potsherd,
and my tongue sticks to the roof of my mouth.

He should have known, right?

You lay me in the dust of death." He was fulfilling prophecy. Nothing more.

Prophecy to sin?

You're reasoning as the Pharisees are depicted to reason. You're ignorant to think that, during the course of Jesus life, he did not cleanse Himself as He required.

Then that's an admittance to being a sinner, Numbers 19. I didn't write the laws.

The Word made flesh, walking among us, manifests the Word. It's as simple as that.

Yep, everything that God spoke into existence had an actual fulfillment, manifested in reality.

No. Silence. You are fabricating objections out of whole cloth, because you cannot have any proof. This is another argument from silence.

Nope, it's reality.

You are in the land...and you have no sacrifices...Only a red heifer...and a fear of taking the Temple Mount.
Leviticus 16:20When Aaron has finished purifying the Most Holy Place, the Tent of Meeting, and the altar, he is to bring forward the live goat. 21Then he is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the iniquities and rebellious acts of the Israelites in regard to all their sins. He is to put them on the goat’s head and send it away into the wilderness by the hand of a man appointed for the task. 22The goat will carry on itself all their iniquities into a solitary place, and the man will release it into the wilderness.

And watch: "26The man who released the goat as the scapegoat must wash his clothes and bathe himself with water; afterward he may reenter the camp."

All of the sin on the head of the goat...and the goat is unclean, so that the man who took him from the camp must bathe before he can come back into the camp. Clear enough?

Where does it say the goat is defiled?

Nope...but he bore yours.
Your imagination is running wild, but that's no basis for faith. It's actually limiting. He cried, because He saw your need and the hardness of your heart. Anyone with compassion would weep loudly. Love compels us to tears sometimes.

He cried as a sinner.

Ezekiel does not deny the effective
This just makes me laugh! It really is your lamest argument. Your willing credulity is running away with you. It was there then, in a well-to-do area, not hidden...and available to your kith and your kin to decimate all arguments. How come you're so much more brilliant than your own ancestors? Were they dim?

Its pretty clear that a person's sins or righteous don't transfer to another. Read it again.

The BASIS of the Nazarene sect that grew and overwhelmed the Roman Empire was a Resurrection...borne in truth by an EMPTY tomb.

You do understand there is the concept of a spiritual resurrection without the body? You should read James Tabor on this.

Or not...
The evidence does not work in your favor.

Sure it does.

Nope...you misread. He asked a question. He rarely answered them. The testimony spoken on my behalf is stronger than my own.
That is often the case.

Nope, he acknowledged he wasn't God. He acknowledges elsewhere he doesn't know everything. But God does.

 

[Jewjitzu]

We both know Daniel was forgiven by virtue of his prayer of intercession...He confessed as his own the sins of the nation, though he had not participated in a single one.

So he was forgiven his sins without a temple. You prove my point, unless you believe he was sinless.

In that, he prefigured Jesus' own intercession you seem to have such difficulty with. And yet...here's the Christian response:

Moses did as well and wasn't sinless. So you're agreeing Jesus wasn't perfect.

No...because he was under the blood of the Messiah he foresaw.

False. Typical Christian answer with zero support.

That is why it is written "I desire chesed and not sacrifice...the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."

Yes obedience is preferred over sacrifice.

Knowledge of God, you rightly point out, comes from the Holy Spirit alone, and He was poured out on Shavuot.

And is indicated by keeping the commandments.

Yet you think this change came without a price, without provision. And still the soul that sins will also perish, without provision. Everyone needs a savior, and that has been provided once and for all.

The Father is the Redeemer, Isaiah 63:16.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Hence this discussion. I'm grateful.

I hope you have more time...

 

[Jewjitzu]

Yep...and even there Jesus is known. My friends working in Islamic countries are often accosted by neighbors who come to them because Jesus directed them in a dream. It's as Joel said.
Clearly...

So what does Jesus look like?

I have strong opinions...like you do. Some have formed opinions AFTER they studied. They make for the best conversations. Which brings me back here. It's been a long time since I've had this much fun.

Nice.

 

[tbeachhead]

Don't swallow the wine as Jesus did and break your vows.

Wahahaha....I don't see that he swallowed. They lifted it to Him. No account says he accepted it, or drank. He was fulfilling prophecy: Ps. 69:20Insults have broken my heart, and I am in despair. I looked for sympathy, but there was none, for comforters, but I found no one. 21They poisoned my food with gall and gave me vinegar to quench my thirst. 22May their table become a snare; may it be a retribution and a trap.…

Hope the rest doesn't get fulfilled. Best you can do.

Read Numbers 6.

OK...Your point? Who made a Nazirite vow? Answer: No one.

No, you mentioned the Romans. Where's that evidence?

I went over that with you...Why do it again? Pliny, Tacitus, Josephus...the testimony of the gospels, which show the bribe paid for silence. It also describes in detail the illegal nature of the proceedings.

So is forgery.

You're point? I have first hand evidence, and written testimony. You have nothing but surmise. You can check the resources or ignore the evidence...but history, as always, will stand even without your concurrence.

I find no reason to believe.

Denial is not a safe river to swim in...Too many crocodiles and hippos. I can only think of one reason to believe the truth...I guess I'm limited, but that one reason is enough for me.

The vow was only about wine. He drank at the cross and is guilty.

Prove he drank.

He should have known, right?

He knew the prophecy. He is the Word.

Prophecy to sin?

Nahhh...Prophecy to be given vinegar to drink. Not even to drink it.

Then that's an admittance to being a sinner, Numbers 19. I didn't write the laws.

Nope...It's an admonition to wash if you touch something unclean. It's sin if you do not wash.

Yep, everything that God spoke into existence had an actual fulfillment, manifested in reality.

A Christian could have written this. I'd say, "...had...or will have..." some fulfillment is yet to come.

Nope, it's reality.

Your imagination is not the strongest foundation for your concept of reality...you have no proof. Only surmise.

Where does it say the goat is defiled?

Right where it says the sin of the nation is placed on his head. You could have just said, "Oh...Yeah..." here. Unless you want to know where it says that sins defile.

He cried as a sinner.

Sigh...Falsehood doesn't become truth by myriad repetition. I cried because he saw the hardness of your heart...That would make anybody weep...and he prayed more loudly for you than for many! Love is by degrees.

Its pretty clear that a person's sins or righteous don't transfer to another. Read it again.

I'm pretty sure if the clean touches the unclean it does not become clean, but if the unclean touches the clean they are both unclean. I know you know this. What does that have to do with an ossuary?

You do understand there is the concept of a spiritual resurrection without the body? You should read James Tabor on this.

I've read Samuel and the New Testament. I have adequate proof of this. You are missing the redemption of the body...that's the fulfillment that Enoch and Elijah prefigure.

Sure it does.

The claim bereft of truth as it is, does not support itself.

Nope, he acknowledged he wasn't God. He acknowledges elsewhere he doesn't know everything. But God does.

And this is for threads and more threads to come. Simply put, on this earth, and made subject to time, he did not have the transcendent power to see the end and the beginning alike. He walked by faith, and limited by our own limitations, in every way like as we. He's not limited like that any more. He actually stretched the limits imposed on us, and showed us potential we had never dreamed of until then. Now, all that He did is made possible for us.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Wahahaha....I don't see that he swallowed. They lifted it to Him. No account says he accepted it, or drank.

False. John 19:29-30. He drank. I'm laughing too ?

He was fulfilling prophecy: Ps. 69:20Insults have broken my heart, and I am in despair. I looked for sympathy, but there was none, for comforters, but I found no one. 21They poisoned my food with gall and gave me vinegar to quench my thirst. 22May their table become a snare; may it be a retribution and a trap.…

Where was the meat that he ate?

Hope the rest doesn't get fulfilled. Best you can do.

Oh, I'm doing just fine.

OK...Your point? Who made a Nazirite vow? Answer: No one.

Looks like Jesus did.

I went over that with you...Why do it again? Pliny, Tacitus, Josephus...the testimony of the gospels, which show the bribe paid for silence. It also describes in detail the illegal nature of the proceedings.

Maybe it was a bribe to keep people silent that he was dead? The initial tomb was a temporary solution for his body's final spot.

You're point? I have first hand evidence, and written testimony. You have nothing but surmise. You can check the resources or ignore the evidence...but history, as always, will stand even without your concurrence.

Who's the first hand witness?

Denial is not a safe river to swim in...Too many crocodiles and hippos. I can only think of one reason to believe the truth...I guess I'm limited, but that one reason is enough for me.

I believe the truth. I haven't seen any so far.

Prove he drank.

See above.

He knew the prophecy. He is the Word.

He admits he doesn't know everything.

Nahhh...Prophecy to be given vinegar to drink. Not even to drink it.

Yep, he drank. Where's the meat?

Nope...It's an admonition to wash if you touch something unclean. It's sin if you do not wash.

He didn't wash. The washing is for cleansing of sin. It's in Numbers 19.

A Christian could have written this. I'd say, "...had...or will have..." some fulfillment is yet to come.

Which is just saying nothing has been fulfilled.

Your imagination is not the strongest foundation for your concept of reality...you have no proof. Only surmise.

What imagination?

Right where it says the sin of the nation is placed on his head. You could have just said, "Oh...Yeah..." here. Unless you want to know where it says that sins defile.

Where does it say the goat is defiled?

Sigh...Falsehood doesn't become truth by myriad repetition. I cried because he saw the hardness of your heart...That would make anybody weep...and he prayed more loudly for you than for many! Love is by degrees.

Hebrews 5:7 doesn't say any of your words.

I'm pretty sure if the clean touches the unclean it does not become clean, but if the unclean touches the clean they are both unclean. I know you know this. What does that have to do with an ossuary?

Jesus' bones.

I've read Samuel and the New Testament. I have adequate proof of this. You are missing the redemption of the body...that's the fulfillment that Enoch and Elijah prefigure.
The claim bereft of truth as it is, does not support itself.

I've read Samuel too.

And this is for threads and more threads to come. Simply put, on this earth, and made subject to time, he did not have the transcendent power to see the end and the beginning alike. He walked by faith, and limited by our own limitations, in every way like as we. He's not limited like that any more. He actually stretched the limits imposed on us, and showed us potential we had never dreamed of until then. Now, all that He did is made possible for us.

So like a man, he wasn't the God. He admitted as much with both his natures.

 

[tbeachhead]

So he was forgiven his sins without a temple. You prove my point, unless you believe he was sinless.

Daniel and Joseph both stand out...what do you think? If, as it is written, "The eyes of the LORD search to and fro throughout the whole earth to show Himself strong on behalf of the one whose heart is perfect toward Him," these two stand as pretty good examples of just what kind of person the eyes of the Lord are.seeking. And He showed Himself pretty strong on their behalf.

Moses did as well and wasn't sinless.

I've always noticed the contrast...in intercession, Moses and Daniel are a good comparison. In leadership, Moses is unsurpassed. In character Daniel stands out.

So you're agreeing Jesus wasn't perfect.

Nope, and that doesn't follow...Jesus was perfect in all His ways, and rose to Adam's dominion.

False. Typical Christian answer with zero support.

OK...You remember, I've been putting up with a few typical Jewish answers without support, so we can say we're even. The sacrifice of Jesus stretched back and forth throughout time...and the support is in Peter's claims, if you want to see it.

Yes obedience is preferred over sacrifice.

Love is stronger than death. It doesn't absolve the legal requirements of Sin, but God covered that...pun intended.

And is indicated by keeping the commandments.

This is a good point...seriously. But when we get down to "which ones," there are many in Israel who proudly hire out to the goyim to have their lights turned on and off on the Sabbath. Can we agree that this is not the "keeping of the commandments" we're talking about?

The Father is the Redeemer, Isaiah 63:16.

God is the redeemer, through the Son.

 

[tbeachhead]

So what does Jesus look like?

Dismiss this all you want to. My experience is mine and I can't...but the Jesus I saw, and only once, looked exactly like the computer enhanced, colorized picture from the shroud of Turin.

That's not an image or an experience I would ever try to defend. It just happened, and the message and memory has helped me through very dark days.

Nice.

Agreed.

 

[tbeachhead]

False. John 19:29-30. He drank. I'm laughing too ?

Even in John "...he received..." Elaben doesn't mean swallowed. His next statement is the Greek idiom "Paid in full..." this was the last of the prophecies he fulfilled.

Where was the meat that he ate?

"The levin of the Pharisees." It got him killed.

Oh, I'm doing just fine.

I believe you and pray for increase! Good to hear.

Looks like Jesus did.

To you maybe...but you don't see. Did he stop cutting his hair? Where? This was his last Seder...and He was longing to take it one last time with them. He did not want it to happen before the meal.

Maybe it was a bribe to keep people silent that he was dead? The initial tomb was a temporary solution for his body's final spot.

The initial tomb was the empty one that the Romans were guarding...and anyone at any time could have stopped the Nazarene sect with the evidence you have had ecstasies over two thousand years later. You're a little late.

Who's the first hand witness?

I told you...I met the team from KwaSizabantu.

(Can I just say, quickly: my experience is not meant to buttress my opinion. It's only my experience. I'm telling you why I believe the testimonies out of Indonesia (I knew the father-in-law personally) or South Africa. Their testimony was convincing enough, and the written work that came out of it gave corroboration. No experience replaces scripture...it can and does support faith, lending hope in times of trial.)

I believe the truth. I haven't seen any so far.

There are great opticians out there.

See above.

OK...Now, prove he drank...not just received.

He admits he doesn't know everything.

Before or after the Resurrection? Before He said the Father alone knows...as Zechariah foretold. In Acts, He said, "“It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority.…" As it is written, "that which is revealed belongs to man, that which is hidden belongs to God." That day belongs to Him. Jesus would not reveal that secrets that are said to be hidden, but, I'm thinking sweet waters are about to appear. Zechariah is pretty exciting on this point.

Yep, he drank. Where's the meat?

See above.

He didn't wash. The washing is for cleansing of sin. It's in Numbers 19.

Argument from silence. You have no proof.

Which is just saying nothing has been fulfilled.

...but that which has that you have rejected.

What imagination?

See above...your baseless claims.

Where does it say the goat is defiled?

See above...see numbers...see the effects of the sin of the nation placed on the head of the goat...See Azazel

Hebrews 5:7 doesn't say any of your words.

It doesn't say any of yours...Here's what it says, "During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence..." There is not pleading for sin here...there is offering up prayer and intercession. If you need the Greek words, I can furnish them. You're reading this badly. He was praying for you, and the outcome of this conversation!

Jesus' bones.

And? Your point? He was laid in the tomb before sunset...and He rose again after the Sabbath.

I've read Samuel too.

Of course you have. That's all you need to know that God is the God of the living. I don't need another source.

So like a man, he wasn't the God.

So like a man...he walked among us, entirely dependent on the Word and the Spirit to guide Him. He left prescience for mortality. Risen from the dead, His mantel and immortality were restored forever.

He admitted as much with both his natures.

He manifested as much in both of His natures. And this is how it had to come to pass...for two houses to become one.

 

[tbeachhead]

Rotfl... so you acknowledge your trinity polytheism.

You acknowledge that your God is a plural noun? One defines it all for me. Polytheism is a contradiction of the Shema.

The word in Nehemiah 9:6, alone, bad in Hebrew, proves only one person called LORD, by himself, created. Other verses in Tanakh show the Father as Creator.

No one said otherwise...He, the Word and the Spirit...one...created. He Spoke the Word as the Spirit brooded, bringing life. He is one, but you have to think body, soul and spirit one, not a one dimensional being.

Just the Father spoke.

...the Word...and the Spirit brooded.

It really isn't.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. All things were made by the Word, and without the Word was not anything made that was made."

You really don't have a problem with that...we watch it happening, and you do not separate the Word from God Himself. He SPOKE the Word.

Your real problem is, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." Because you cannot see the Word being formed in the womb of a virgin by the mere virtue of her receiving that Word.

Yet, such is the life-giving nature of the Word by which all things were made...and which you and I are sharing.

I know. I know...and there are mystics in East Overshoe. But this isn't mysticism. It's only history.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Daniel and Joseph both stand out...what do you think? If, as it is written, "The eyes of the LORD search to and fro throughout the whole earth to show Himself strong on behalf of the one whose heart is perfect toward Him," these two stand as pretty good examples of just what kind of person the eyes of the Lord are.seeking. And He showed Himself pretty strong on their behalf.

So, then if Daniel can be forgiven without sacrifices so can the rest of Israel.

I've always noticed the contrast...in intercession, Moses and Daniel are a good comparison. In leadership, Moses is unsurpassed. In character Daniel stands out.

Both men of God. Though Moses is mentioned as being the most humble man on earth even though he was the greatest prophet.

Nope, and that doesn't follow...Jesus was perfect in all His ways, and rose to Adam's dominion.

One can perfect himself, and that's how the Nazarenes viewed him.

OK...You remember, I've been putting up with a few typical Jewish answers without support, so we can say we're even.

Really? Where?

The sacrifice of Jesus stretched back and forth throughout time...and the support is in Peter's claims, if you want to see it.

Sorry, you need prophetical support which you don't have.

Love is stronger than death. It doesn't absolve the legal requirements of Sin, but God covered that...pun intended.

You can still love and someone dies.

This is a good point...seriously. But when we get down to "which ones," there are many in Israel who proudly hire out to the goyim to have their lights turned on and off on the Sabbath.

I doubt that with the advent of automatic light switches. You mean hire for pay, paying on the Sabbath itself?

Can we agree that this is not the "keeping of the commandments" we're talking about?
God is the redeemer, through the Son.

Doesn't mention the son, just the Father. And only the Father is mentioned as Creator, the potter, etc.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Dismiss this all you want to. My experience is mine and I can't...but the Jesus I saw, and only once, looked exactly like the computer enhanced, colorized picture from the shroud of Turin.

So you saw a vision but not reality. Sounds like you had a biased experience based on visual indoctrination.

That's not an image or an experience I would ever try to defend. It just happened, and the message and memory has helped me through very dark days.

Ok. Visions are not reality.

Agreed.

K.

 

[Jewjitzu]

You acknowledge that your God is a plural noun?

Yes, meaning powerful. But the context shows singularity. You do understand that similar plural words are used for face/panai, water/mayim, life/chaim, etc., but they are singular in meaning?

One defines it all for me. Polytheism is a contradiction of the Shema.

So why do you believe in it?

No one said otherwise...He, the Word and the Spirit...one...created. He Spoke the Word as the Spirit brooded, bringing life.

God spoke the word and His will/spirit was fulfilled. There aren't 3 actors in this play.

He is one, but you have to think body, soul and spirit one, not a one dimensional being.

I don't think in physical terms.

...the Word...and the Spirit brooded.

No, see above.

In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. All things were made by the Word, and without the Word was not anything made that was made."

Just the Father as Tanakh clearly shows.

You really don't have a problem with that...we watch it happening, and you do not separate the Word from God Himself. He SPOKE the Word.

The word is not a person. You separate by doing that.

Your real problem is, "And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." Because you cannot see the Word being formed in the womb of a virgin by the mere virtue of her receiving that Word.

The world was formed with a word.

Yet, such is the life-giving nature of the Word by which all things were made...and which you and I are sharing.

But your idea of Word is a false god.

I know. I know...and there are mystics in East Overshoe. But this isn't mysticism. It's only history.

Doubtful.

 

[tbeachhead]

So, then if Daniel can be forgiven without sacrifices so can the rest of Israel.

You see we disagree...Daniel needed Jesus. You and I will not see eye to eye here until you've met Him too. The fact is, the blood is sufficient to cover both then and now, and it is and will only ever be the legal and binding covering/propitiation required.

And YES! All the rest of Israel is covered in like manner.

Both men of God. Though Moses is mentioned as being the most humble man on earth even though he was the greatest prophet.

And Moses is the greatest example of the holiness of God as we rise to leadership. Beat the rock...he beat it and produced water. Speak to the rock...he beat it...produced water, and lost his ticket to enter. It's hard to lead, when the whiners are amplified and the way is long.

One can perfect himself, and that's how the Nazarenes viewed him.

No one can perfect himself. You are contradicting yourself here...you've said, correct me, that without the Spirit it cannot be done. Your relationship with the Spirit of God produces the fruit. Not your extraordinary effort. Your righteousness is as filthy rags. His offer is clean linen.

Really? Where?

Wahaha. So innocent. I'll point it out the next time. This thread is ponderous.

Sorry, you need prophetical support which you don't have.

Do you accept Peter's support? It's in his epistles. I can cite it if you need me to. David calls him "Lord"...looking ahead. I know you have rejected Isaiah's testimony which is the clearest support that comes to me.

I'll get back with more as it comes to me. You're questioning whether the offering once of Christ's blood covered once and for all time all sin. Correct. I'll find support...it's throughout the Word.

You can still love and someone dies.

Do they? Weren't we just saying that death is not the end? Love transcends death...and proves immortality is written in our hearts, as Ecclesiastes tells us.

I doubt that with the advent of automatic light switches. You mean hire for pay, paying on the Sabbath itself?

You would know...I heard this from friends in Israel...the ultra-orthodox would not switch on their own lights on the Sabbath.

Doesn't mention the son, just the Father. And only the Father is mentioned as Creator, the potter, etc.

Ahhh...but then...He spoke, didn't He? The Word was there.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Even in John "...he received..." Elaben doesn't mean swallowed. His next statement is the Greek idiom "Paid in full..." this was the last of the prophecies he fulfilled.

He took it, like one takes a wife physically. Look it up.

"The levin of the Pharisees." It got him killed.

Doubtful when they tried to save him.

I believe you and pray for increase! Good to hear.

Yep.

To you maybe...but you don't see. Did he stop cutting his hair? Where? This was his last Seder...and He was longing to take it one last time with them. He did not want it to happen before the meal.

The wine vow and period he stated. The hair is a given.

The initial tomb was the empty one that the Romans were guarding...and anyone at any time could have stopped the Nazarene sect with the evidence you have had ecstasies over two thousand years later. You're a little late.

No, it's a mitzvah to bury as soon as possible. Jews know this.

I told you...I met the team from KwaSizabantu.

So. Did you see it?

(Can I just say, quickly: my experience is not meant to buttress my opinion. It's only my experience. I'm telling you why I believe the testimonies out of Indonesia (I knew the father-in-law personally) or South Africa. Their testimony was convincing enough, and the written work that came out of it gave corroboration. No experience replaces scripture...it can and does support faith, lending hope in times of trial.)

Sorry, I don't believe it.

There are great opticians out there.

Yep, you should find one.

OK...Now, prove he drank...not just received.

You can't take possession unless you drink in his circumstance. Remember, he had no hands available.

Before or after the Resurrection? Before He said the Father alone knows...as Zechariah foretold. In Acts, He said, "“It is not for you to know times or seasons that the Father has fixed by His own authority.…" As it is written, "that which is revealed belongs to man, that which is hidden belongs to God." That day belongs to Him. Jesus would not reveal that secrets that are said to be hidden, but, I'm thinking sweet waters are about to appear. Zechariah is pretty exciting on this point.

Either case.

See above.

Yep, where's the meat he was offered?

Argument from silence. You have no proof.

It's all over.

...but that which has that you have rejected.

So why do you present anything to me?

See above...your baseless claims.

It's your book. I'm just pointing out discrepancies.

See above...see numbers...see the effects of the sin of the nation placed on the head of the goat...See Azazel

Done.

It doesn't say any of yours...Here's what it says, "During the days of Jesus’ earthly life, He offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to the One who could save Him from death, and He was heard because of His reverence..."

Save him from death, not us. Prayers of a sinner.

There is not pleading for sin here...there is offering up prayer and intercession. If you need the Greek words, I can furnish them. You're reading this badly. He was praying for you, and the outcome of this conversation.

Like you said above, the prayer was for him.

And? Your point? He was laid in the tomb before sunset...and He rose again after the Sabbath.

Of course you have. That's all you need to know that God is the God of the living. I don't need another source.

Yeah, but Jesus is dead.

So like a man...he walked among us, entirely dependent on the Word and the Spirit to guide Him. He left prescience for mortality. Risen from the dead, His mantel and immortality were restored forever.

No evidence.

He manifested as much in both of His natures. And this is how it had to come to pass...for two houses to become one.

He acknowledged he wasn't the God with both of his supposed natures.

 

[Jewjitzu]

You see we disagree...Daniel needed Jesus. You and I will not see eye to eye here until you've met Him too.

You have no evidence for this.

The fact is, the blood is sufficient to cover both then and now, and it is and will only ever be the legal and binding covering/propitiation required.

Fact is nothing supports you.

And YES! All the rest of Israel is covered in like manner.

Then we don't need Jesus.

And Moses is the greatest example of the holiness of God as we rise to leadership. Beat the rock...he beat it and produced water. Speak to the rock...he beat it...produced water, and lost his ticket to enter. It's hard to lead, when the whiners are amplified and the way is long.

Yep.

No one can perfect himself. You are contradicting yourself here...you've said, correct me, that without the Spirit it cannot be done.

Psalm 19:7 The law of the LORD is perfect, restoring the soul; The testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.

I said evidence of the spirit is keeping the law. It's a choice.

Your relationship with the Spirit of God produces the fruit. Not your extraordinary effort.

See above.

Your righteousness is as filthy rags. His offer is clean linen.

Only our rules are rags, not God's.

Wahaha. So innocent. I'll point it out the next time. This thread is ponderous.

You can leave as I shortly will.

Do you accept Peter's support? It's in his epistles. I can cite it if you need me to. David calls him "Lord"...looking ahead. I know you have rejected Isaiah's testimony which is the clearest support that comes to me.

I reject your understanding.

I'll get back with more as it comes to me. You're questioning whether the offering once of Christ's blood covered once and for all time all sin.

It didn't. You're still dying.

Correct. I'll find support...it's throughout the Word.

I haven't seen it.

Do they? Weren't we just saying that death is not the end? Love transcends death...and proves immortality is written in our hearts, as Ecclesiastes tells us.

You still die, right?

You would know...I heard this from friends in Israel...the ultra-orthodox would not switch on their own lights on the Sabbath.

Ok. Did they pay on the Sabbath. If they did, that's wrong.

Ahhh...but then...He spoke, didn't He? The Word was there.

Not as a person.

 

[tbeachhead]

Yes, meaning powerful. But the context shows singularity. You do understand that similar plural words are used for face/panai, water/mayim, life/chaim, etc., but they are singular in meaning?

Meaning plural...and necessary to explain away by those who believe God the One is single dimensional. Plural as in Body, Soul and Spirit...in Whose image we are, so we can grasp what this means.

So why do you believe in it?

I think you're being obtuse. I just showed I don't. I believe In God. One God, and I haven't found an alternative to Truth that is worth manifesting any effort to sustain.. One God. Who manifested Himself in the Word in creation, as the Spirit brooded, and I recognize all three, because these three are One and in me as well, created in His image body soul and spirit...And your God has so shown us so clearly, that it's undeniable. The nephesh is in the blood. The ruah brings life to the nephesh. The nephesh brings life to the body...And the body creates...One. The Word alone created the world...and the Father spoke the word as the Spirit brought life.

God spoke the word and His will/spirit was fulfilled. There aren't 3 actors in this play.

You just placed three actors on your stage. The Word doesn't act independently of the Father...but neither does anything happen without the word...and there is no life in the word without the Ruah/breath. All three actors, none is insignificant, or independent one of the other.

I don't think in physical terms.

That's a handicap and it explains a lot. This is not mysticism. This physical world was created as is for us to think...and see better...and you are body, soul and spirit. Without one of these three only "dead" would apply to your being. The life is in the vitality of all three.

No, see above.

See above.

Just the Father as Tanakh clearly shows.

With the Word and the Spirit as Tanakh clearly shows. I'm not going to go outside the Tanakh with you...you're denying what's in what you have accepted as true.

The word is not a person. You separate by doing that.

That IS the part you deny. I said that. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us...and you cannot understand that. It's a stumbling block. We say "Jesus was the visible manifestation of the invisible God." As He is, this is what Jesus did. In some French translations, for what it's worth, Jesus is called the Verb. It's not a good translation of Logos, but it's interesting.

And it's still history...only even conceivably possible if Mary was a virgin.

The world was formed with a word.
But your idea of Word is a false god.

The Word is...let's say...all powerful, and never stands apart from God. Never false.

Doubtful.

No sin in doubting history...denying truth is where the issues lie. History is there to discover.

 

[Jewjitzu]

Meaning plural...and necessary to explain away by those who believe God the One is single dimensional.

Not necessary, it's part of the language. If you take the way you do, you can't escape multiple gods which is associated with the false gods. Your choice.

Plural as in Body, Soul and Spirit...in Whose image we are, so we can grasp what this means.

God doesn't have a body, parts, etc. Study Exodus 34:6-7, and the image we were made in.

I think you're being obtuse. I just showed I don't. I believe In God. One God, and I haven't found an alternative to Truth that is worth manifesting any effort to sustain..

You say that and demonstrate something else.

One God. Who manifested Himself in the Word in creation, as the Spirit brooded, and I recognize all three, because these three are One and in me as well, created in His image body soul and spirit...

There's only one, not 3. Nehemiah 9:6, exclusively alone.

And your God has so shown us so clearly, that it's undeniable. The nephesh is in the blood. The ruah brings life to the nephesh. The nephesh brings life to the body...And the body creates...One.

We're physical, God isn't. Try again.

The Word alone created the world...and the Father spoke the word as the Spirit brought life.

The word isn't a person.

You just placed three actors on your stage. The Word doesn't act independently of the Father...but neither does anything happen without the word...and there is no life in the word without the Ruah/breath. All three actors, none is insignificant, or independent one of the other.

No, one actor who spoke and his will was carried out.

That's a handicap and it explains a lot. This is not mysticism. This physical world was created as is for us to think...and see better...and you are body, soul and spirit.

That's one body.

Without one of these three only "dead" would apply to your being. The life is in the vitality of all three.

But we're not God, but physical.

See above.
With the Word and the Spirit as Tanakh clearly shows. I'm not going to go outside the Tanakh with you...you're denying what's in what you have accepted as true.

No, I deny your understanding. You understand everything in terms of the Trinity, I don't.

That IS the part you deny. I said that. The Word became flesh and dwelt among us...and you cannot understand that. It's a stumbling block. We say "Jesus was the visible manifestation of the invisible God."

All of creation was. His wisdom.

As He is, this is what Jesus did. In some French translations, for what it's worth, Jesus is called the Verb. It's not a good translation of Logos, but it's interesting.

Yeah, misguided.

And it's still history...only even conceivably possible if Mary was a virgin.

Which she couldn't be to fulfill marriage duties.

The Word is...let's say...all powerful, and never stands apart from God. Never false.

But not a person.

No sin in doubting history...denying truth is where the issues lie. History is there to discover.

The law is truth. Why do you deny that?