Why Luther rejected James- it refuted his faith alone doctrine

[BJ Bear]

Luther had been lifted out of the swamp of the Vatican.... Baptism only held one meaning to their understanding.

The second sentence is ambiguous, and false whether you intend to include Luther in the plural, "their," or not. The historical evidence in this regard abounds, for example, an easily accessible demonstration of this can be found in the article on Holy Baptism in the Smalcald Articles, 1537. In it there are three explicit meanings and there are two other obvious meanings left unstated.

Another accessible demonstration of this, but not online, is through the Examination Of The Council Of Trent, by Martin Chemnitz, (c)CPH.

But, Luther even as standing free some of the smell was lingering on his garments.

That is an unusual way to speak of the smell of Christ on Luther and the Roman Catholic Church. The Roman Catholic Church had and has accrued errors that obscure Christ, but they also have and use the Scriptures and the Sacraments (a church term) which Christ instituted for the forgiveness of sins, namely, Holy Baptism, Holy Communion, and Holy Absolution.

In other words, God was and is at work in the RCC in spite of the accrued errors it teaches just as He is at work in all other churches which which have and use the Scriptures and those three sacraments, also in spite of the accrued errors which they teach.

It was to be expected, since no great Bible teachers were teaching him what he would have needed to know in certain areas that he never questioned. It takes time.

That is just a story, a bad story.

Was it the purported, "great Bible teachers," which you have in mind that lead you to post a weak preferred translation which lead to the posted misinterpretation of Romans 1:17 in post #100? Or was it from the custom of viewing Scripture out of context through a systematic theology?

For the record and according to the cited passages from Romans, what is revealed in the gospel is the justification or righteousness of God, that is, the objective true good news of Jesus Christ to and for all men.

Luther was a babe to systematic theology and was pioneering a way for others to learn from, and *to improve upon* after him. That is why he is to be seen as a reference. but never a final authority on certain doctrines as some here seem to bow down to.

Cutting to the chase, the command to the fishermen and the disciples of Christ is to baptize all nations in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them all I have commanded you.

The command to the fishermen and the disciples of Christ is not to learn to do a systematic theology that will obscure and despise Me, , baptism, and all that I have taught you by taking My word out of it's given context and placing it into a preferred context of men.. See above regarding Romans 1 for an example of this.

NASA does not bow down to the Wright Brothers, nor should it. Doctrinal understanding should become better comprehended as time passes. That stands true for those being nurtured by the filling of the Holy Spirit. For the Body of Christ is a living and GROWING organism, that over time, will gain in better are more mature understanding.

The analogy above highlights the basis upon which some men think they understand the word of God better than the Holy Spirit. That basis is the misguided use of reason, through their placing of their reason above Scripture rather than make use of it as the handmaid or servant of Scripture.

To paraphrase Luther, reason is a great gift from God. By it we know a noun is not a verb, a cow is not a pig, two is not four, etc. In other words, it is the right tool for developing flight and rockets but it is incompetent to rule over that which must be revealed to it.

Those who stop at the gates of Calvin and Luther are like historical reenactments ....

Scripture is lord and master over all other writings on earth,.. The Evangelical Church affirms where Luther rightly reflects Scripture and rejects where he did not.

Not adapted for what is needed today to combat the ever mutating strains of evil that poke holes in the weaknesses that need to be sealed.

grace and peace..... Merry Christmas!

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:” (2Ti 3:16, KJVA)

People overcome the evil one and his works through the person and work of Christ to and for all men. He is the one who has overcome the strong man rather than man's reason.

Grace and peace to all. Merry Christmas. Alleluia!

 

[dberrie2020]

Are you trying to play a game of Abbott and Costello's comedy routine, "Who is on first?" I commented on your comments and now you illogically refer them to the actual Scripture. Do you really think your comments are the true Christian scriptures?

I'm not sure how you connect the posted scriptures with an Abbot and Costello routine, but yes--I believe the posted scriptures are "true Christian scriptures"--which need no comment to recognize they violate Lutheran theology:

Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

1 Timothy 4:16---King James Version
16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

James 2:24---New American Standard Bible
24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Romans 6:16---King James Version
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Ephesians 2:8---King James Version
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Revelation 22:14---King James Version
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

BJ--just so a scripture violates the theology you own--does not mean it's false, or --isn't a true Christian scripture.

 

[dberrie2020]

For the record and according to the cited passages from Romans, what is revealed in the gospel is the justification or righteousness of God, that is, the objective true good news of Jesus Christ to and for all men.

For most--the righteousness of God isn't questioned. It's this point which is questioned, IMO:

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

IOW--the Biblical text testifies of God's love for all of mankind, and in addition to that--how our love for God is manifested:

John 14:15---King James Version
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

A covenant is a two--party agreement:

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

 

[eternomade]

And He is still taking away the sins of the world.

I have a few questions, maybe comments, respectfully concerning this last part.

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
Matthew 1:21 KJV

When did Jesus save His people from their sins?

The author of Hebrews says this:

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"
Hebrews 10:12 KJV

I don't recall any chairs in the temple that the High Priest could sit down in. The work was never done.

Was not sin put away by the shedding of Christ's blood at the cross?

And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
Exodus 12:13 KJV

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."
Hebrews 9:22 KJV

Therefore, my argument is that Christ came to save His people from their sins, which is the world, both Jew and Gentile, or all nations. All of this was done by His one offering at Calvary where God imputed the sin of those He gave to the Son to Christ and imputed the righteousness of Christ(God) to His people. At the cross God's people were Redeemed, justified ands sanctified by virtue of being in Christ.

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."
Hebrews 9:12‭-‬22 KJV

Blessings.

 

[BJ Bear]

I have a few questions, maybe comments, respectfully concerning this last part.

"And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins."
Matthew 1:21 KJV

When did Jesus save His people from their sins?

The author of Hebrews says this:

"But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;"
Hebrews 10:12 KJV

I don't recall any chairs in the temple that the High Priest could sit down in. The work was never done.

Was not sin put away by the shedding of Christ's blood at the cross?

And the blood shall be to you for a token upon the houses where ye are: and when I see the blood, I will pass over you, and the plague shall not be upon you to destroy you, when I smite the land of Egypt.
Exodus 12:13 KJV

"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."
Hebrews 9:22 KJV

Therefore, my argument is that Christ came to save His people from their sins, which is the world, both Jew and Gentile, or all nations. All of this was done by His one offering at Calvary where God imputed the sin of those He gave to the Son to Christ and imputed the righteousness of Christ(God) to His people. At the cross God's people were Redeemed, justified ands sanctified by virtue of being in Christ.

"Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.

For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,

Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.

Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."
Hebrews 9:12‭-‬22 KJV

Blessings.

You brought up points which we largely agree upon and we are certainly in agreement that the passages are significant. The difference in our views on the topic is the Scriptural perspective in which we are viewing them.

Two straight forward ways to demonstrate that Jesus is still taking away the sins of the world is grammatically and from the actual witness of Scripture. Grammatically, we can see that the action of Jesus taking away the sins of the world is ongoing from John 1:29. “¶The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.” (Joh 1:29, KJVA)

From the witness of Scripture there are different ways to demonstrate that Jesus still takes away sins. For example, people are baptized into Christ for the forgiveness of sins.

Some people may object to that example, but the accomplished sacrifice is applied to people by the body of Christ. It is applied through the word alone and the word with the elements in Holy Baptism, Holy Communion, and Holy Absolution. It is through those means that people passively receive what God has given and gives in the person and work of Christ to and for all men.

Some people also might object to that, but it is the explicit witness of Scripture. For example, a literal translation of Acts 17:31 says that God has given faith to all men in raising Christ from the dead. “Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance [pistis, faith] unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.” (Act 17:31, KJVA)

In the same way there are explicit passages which state what God does and gives in Holy Baptism, Holy Communion, and Holy Absolution. Some traditions try to mask that through their translations. (All translations are an interpretation, even translations of Scripture.)

An example of this masking occurs in the post KJV custom among English translators to not translate pistis as faith in Acts 17:31. Older English translations and translations in other languages do not demonstrate the same avoidance.

This brings us back to the main topic of the thread, the assurance of salvation or the lack of it. There are those that don't want their people to be sure of their salvation and some who want their people to look in the wrong direction, that is, at themselves and what they do or have done for the assurance of their salvation.

The first group does it by limiting some of what God has done and does in the person and work of Christ for all men. The other two groups, the original intended participants in the thread, do it by denying some of what God has done and does in the person and work of Christ to and for all men.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:” (Eph 2:8, KJVA)

 

[Arch Stanton]

The irony is that you can find Augustine on both sides of the free will/tulip dispute. That ought to tell everyone that it is a speculative debate, one based on reason rather than the gospel, the objective true good news of the person and work of Christ to and for all men.

Fwiw, limited atonement was around in various forms before Augustine. For example, Irenaeus wrote of gnostics who taught that God created different classes of men, including some that looked like other men but who were not capable of salvation.

I think the larger irony is that Augustine was a Catholic Bishop.

 

[Nic]

I think the larger irony is that Augustine was a Catholic Bishop.

Yeah, for me the irony is that Catholics are still attempting to write a single unchanging narrative with the past that went before them.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Yeah, for me the irony is that Catholics are still attempting to write a single unchanging narrative with the past that went before them.

The mustard seed grows over time -- dogma, doctrine, discipline

 

[Nic]

The mustard seed grows over time -- dogma, doctrine, discipline

The earlier an error occurs typically results in errors of great magnitude.
The human condition is dead not sick for example.

 

[Arch Stanton]

The earlier an error occurs typically results in errors of great magnitude.

Totally agree!!! I thank The Lord for His promises --

Signed,
Pillar of Truth
Wisdom of God made known through the Church
Whatever you bind....
The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail
Whoever listens to you, listens to ME
The Spirit of truth will guide you to all truth
I am with you always

 

[Nic]

Totally agree!!! I thank The Lord for His promises --

Signed,
Pillar of Truth
Wisdom of God made known through the Church
Whatever you bind....
The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail
Whoever listens to you, listens to ME
The Spirit of truth will guide you to all truth
I am with you always

Love from the Roman priesthood

Totally agree!!! I thank The Lord for His promises --

Signed,
Pillar of Truth
Wisdom of God made known through the Church
Whatever you bind....
The gates of the netherworld shall not prevail
Whoever listens to you, listens to ME
The Spirit of truth will guide you to all truth
I am with you always

That's a nice sign-off but the Roman Catholic church isn't anything but a denomination with its own baggage of errors. You failed to address the first one I mentioned. God's word says men are dead in their sins, RC church teaches men are wounded in sin. Start there and see what Scripture says then see what your church says and see if you can see the difference.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Love from the Roman priesthood

The only ministerial priesthood [along with the Orthodox]

That's a nice sign-off but the Roman Catholic church isn't anything but a denomination

Denominations split from the original -- The Catholic Church has never been a denomination

 

[Nic]

The only ministerial priesthood [along with the Orthodox]

Denominations split from the original -- The Catholic Church has never been a denomination

I suppose you were hoping I would overlook your consecutive omission to a very serious charge I made against your hearalded heritage of faith or perhaps considered my charge rather benign, in any event these starements appear as fairly straightforward language in scripture without the need of a decoder device. A non-Christian could surely understand the differences in these statements, the catch would be how much veracity or belief the non-Christian may ascribe to either statement, but surely can understand and illustrate the differences in the two assertions.
Word of God says men are dead in their sins.
Your denomination teaches, that men are wounded in sin.
Could you please explain how these two statements are suppose to the same? Are you contending that dead does not mean dead or that wounded does not mean merely wounded?

All Christians are ministers and belong to a royal priesthood, this is something that the christian church has always taught I know you don't deny this, but you still wish to appeal to a ministry higher than this. It reminds me of different memberships at shopper clubs.

 

[Arch Stanton]

I suppose you were hoping I would overlook your consecutive omission to a very serious charge I made against your hearalded heritage of faith or perhaps considered my charge rather benign,

not at all, I saw it -- but I am on the LUTHERAN board why not start with authority that can be trusted?

 

[Arch Stanton]

All Christians are ministers and belong to a royal priesthood,

In the Old Testament, there were THREE levels of Priests:
High Priest [Aaron]
Levitical Priesthood
General priesthood of the rest of the believers.

In the New Testament, there are also three levels of Priests:
Jesus, our High Priest (1 Tim. 2:5, Heb. 7:22-25),
The Ministerial Priests (James 5:14-15; John 20:23; 2 Cor 5:18)
The General Priesthood of all Christians (1 Peter 2:5-9).

 

[Nic]

not at all, I saw it -- but I am on the LUTHERAN board why not start with authority that can be trusted?

I did, perhaps you missed it. Scripture. Now for the 4th time, will you answer the question?

 

[Arch Stanton]

I did, perhaps you missed it.

I must have missed the part about Luther's authority over an authority that already existed [with promises from Christ].

 

[Nic]

I must have missed the part about Luther's authority over an authority that already existed [with promises from Christ].

Apparently. Let me give you a refresher, Luther deferred to the scriptures for authority. This is no less than the fifth attempt of trying to get an answer. You do realize without answering your are tacitly acknowledging your error and the weakness of your claim.

 

[Arch Stanton]

Apparently. Let me give you a refresher, Luther deferred to the scriptures for authority. This is no less than the fifth attempt of trying to get an answer. You do realize without answering your are tacitly acknowledging your error and the weakness of your claim.

I am waiting patently on a Lutheran board for you to defend your faith.... by what authority did Luther change what Christ promised?

 

[Nic]

I am waiting patently on a Lutheran board for you to defend your faith.... by what authority did Luther change what Christ promised?

Could be, but in the meantime your position will be regarded as error until you defend it with satisfaction.
In history, there's this book called the Book of Harmony or Concord. No less than 20 articles of faith were put forth in this collection to demonstrate the historical precedence in light of church history. In other words, Luther like-minded churchmen didn't create new beliefs outside of the faith already accepted as the faith once given to the saints. I defy you to demonstrate otherwise.