wof literalism and Revelation 10:1
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BlessedAnomaly
Well-known member
What do we have?
John, with an angel, seeing. And what he saw, he testified to. Everything.
John saw and then he testified to what he saw.
So John has two (or more) choices here. Write down, to the best of his ability, what he sees. Or dream up metaphors and allegories so that he can obfuscate the vision for nobody to truly understand and confuse Christians for centuries to come. Knowing God, it's probably the latter.
Here John sees a powerful angel. Said angel is descending. I'm pretty certain John saw an angel coming down from heaven.
He says it was wrapped in a cloud, rainbow above, face like the sun and legs like fire. Can you imagine if you saw something that you were not used to? Something you've never seen before. How would you describe it? Perhaps the best you could?
Or maybe you'd just make up something secret, something hidden, something you and your crew were planning the last 60 years. Just obscure what you are seeing and make it into something that nobody could figure out in a few thousand years.
Or maybe, just maybe, there was a mighty angel descending from heaven. And maybe, just maybe, the physical attributes were foreign to John and he had to do the best he could.
I'm going to go with Rev 1:1-2 -- John was told to testify to everything that he saw. Rev 10:1 is what he saw.
Revelation 1:1b-2a
by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who then testified to everything that he saw
John, with an angel, seeing. And what he saw, he testified to. Everything.
John saw and then he testified to what he saw.
So John has two (or more) choices here. Write down, to the best of his ability, what he sees. Or dream up metaphors and allegories so that he can obfuscate the vision for nobody to truly understand and confuse Christians for centuries to come. Knowing God, it's probably the latter.
Revelation 10:1
Then I saw another powerful angel descending from heaven, wrapped in a cloud, with a rainbow above his head; his face was like the sun and his legs were like pillars of fire.
Here John sees a powerful angel. Said angel is descending. I'm pretty certain John saw an angel coming down from heaven.
He says it was wrapped in a cloud, rainbow above, face like the sun and legs like fire. Can you imagine if you saw something that you were not used to? Something you've never seen before. How would you describe it? Perhaps the best you could?
Or maybe you'd just make up something secret, something hidden, something you and your crew were planning the last 60 years. Just obscure what you are seeing and make it into something that nobody could figure out in a few thousand years.
Or maybe, just maybe, there was a mighty angel descending from heaven. And maybe, just maybe, the physical attributes were foreign to John and he had to do the best he could.
I'm going to go with Rev 1:1-2 -- John was told to testify to everything that he saw. Rev 10:1 is what he saw.
Yodas_Prodigy
Well-known member
I am glad you are going with what John said... Now don't put your dispensational glasses on yet... And put that Dispy template in your pocket. Now read... EMPHASIS MINE...
Chapter 1
1 The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what MUST HAPPEN VERY SOON. He made it clear by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who then testified to everything that he saw concerning the word of God and the testimony about Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy aloud, and blessed are those who hear and obey the things written in it, BECAUSE THE TIME IS NEAR!
Chapter 22
6 Then the angel said to me, “These words are reliable and true. The Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, has sent his angel to show his servants WHAT MUST HAPPEN SOON.”
7 Look! I AM COMING SOON!
Blessed is the one who keeps the words of the prophecy expressed in this book.)
8 I, John, AM the ONE WHO HEARD and SAW these things, and when I heard and saw them, I threw myself down to worship at the feet of the angel who was showing them to me. 9 But he said to me, “Do not do this! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers the prophets, and with those who obey the words of this book. Worship God!” 10 Then he said to me, “DO NOT SEAL the WORDS of the PROPHECY contained in this book, because the time is near. 11 The evildoer must continue to do evil, and the one who is morally filthy must continue to be filthy. The[ one who is righteous must continue to act righteously, and the one who is holy must continue to be holy.”
12 Look! I AM COMING SOON,
LOL's ROFL can't wait to see how you define COMING SOON, HAPPEN SOON, TIME IS NEAR, and VERY SOON....
Yodas_Prodigy
Well-known member
Burberry Sunglasses BE4319
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OKay, now you may put them on.... Feel better?
BlessedAnomaly
Well-known member
If it was Word of Faith it would be more like this.Burberry Sunglasses BE4319
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BlessedAnomaly
Well-known member
LOL? ROFL?
You're hilarious.
So what does SOON mean to the Preterist? That Revelation was written in 65 and SOON meant by 70?
Maybe SOON to God has A different concept. Maybe Peter told us what it meant.
2 Peter 3:8
Now, dear friends, do not let this one thing escape your notice, that a single day is like a thousand years with the Lord and a thousand years are like a single day.
And God emphasized that this should not escape your notice. But you are humanly and inwardly focused. You don't care what scripture actually says.
You want to win.
You want to laugh. You want to roll on the floor.
Humility is far from your mind.
Hmm. Take 2 Peter 3:8. Check the context. See if it is talking at all about the present heavens and earth burning up, or the day of judgment, or the destruction of the ungodly. See if it's talking about the Day of the Lord.
I would laugh but your arrogance is too sad. All you want is to win. It's like a man who plays chess: one goal. To win and be the best. It clouds all other judgement.
Tallen
Well-known member
You're obfuscating..., again.
Im sure John saw what he described... but seeing something can be taken in differing ways. Did the apostle see a literal actual angel... or did he see a vision where these things were shown him? Was the angel clothed with an actual cloud made of H2O? Did he have an actual rainbow on his head made of light shining through water vapor, perhaps rain? Was His feet actual pillars of fire? How literal you going to make this?
You know what I'm asking, so knock off the antics and let's get to the point. ?
BlessedAnomaly
Well-known member
You're obfuscating with your boring charges.
What difference does this make? He saw. He wrote what he saw. Did God move him forward in time to see the actual events or show him a vision of exactly what was to come? Or did he show him a movie reel of what was planned? Doesn't matter. What matters is it wasn't some fairy tale open to humans unpacking hidden meanings. He was told to write what he saw. I believe he wrote what he saw. When he didn't have words for what he saw, he did the best he could.
Who cares. It is what John saw. He didn't use the word "cloud" as a Mission Impossible code word for bored Reformists.
As literal as John made it.
I know you're trying to obfuscate the point. I know you're using debate tactics to diminish the opposing view. I know you're trying to get in my head to usurp some fake superiority you think you have.
I wrote what I wrote and what u believe. Deal with it. John wrote what he saw to the best of his ability. No code words, Captain.
Tallen
Well-known member
tyfyt
BlessedAnomaly
Well-known member
yvwfmt
Yodas_Prodigy
Well-known member
I am glad you put the sunglasses on. That explains the misuse of this passage... As usual, you juxtapose unrelated passages to support your template...
Hmmmmm.... You seem to claim omniscience... Instead, what you are doing is projecting your own attitude. Go back and look at ALL of your conversations with Ted and I (and others), with an honest appraisal. You will see that you are the one who has to be right. When I post something on Facebook or here you cannot withhold commenting... When you know you are wrong, you either dig your heels in and argue more or you shelve it and ignore...
You become offensive and berate...
tbeachhead
Well-known member
Makes you wonder what John actually saw, doesn't it? ...if you're not a literalist.
Probably a boat or a car...
