Did BrotherofJared tell you that? I know that Jesus Christ told us “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father who is in Heaven is perfect.” [Matthew 5:48] And my fellow brother in the gospel can’t speak for himself.
Works based Salvation? Yes or No
- Thread starter Aaron32
- Start date
Did BrotherofJared tell you that? I know that Jesus Christ told us “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father who is in Heaven is perfect.” [Matthew 5:48] And my fellow brother in the gospel can’t speak for himself.
dberrie2020
Super Member
That only connects works with the good tree and one rooted in Jesus Christ.
Is being rooted in Jesus Christ necessary for eternal life to occur?
dberrie2020
Super Member
So--do you bother with the King James translation?
Romans 6:16---King James Version
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Magdalena
Well-known member
Do you even bother to read the thread?
dberrie2020
Super Member
Of course water baptism is a work. It's an ordinance with the promise of God's grace.
Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
The remission of sins is God's work. Repentance and water baptism is the gospel which all are required to do. It's not God who repents and is water baptized in the command found in Acts2:38.
I would agree it's God's way and command--but it's our work to do--in completing God's command.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
LOL. There is no way to be perfect this side of heaven.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
None, we are saved by grace. I can tell you what deeds qualify us for grace. Do u want me to list them? I'll be happy to.
A good tree produces good fruit.
Nah. It just has to produce good fruit. It doesn't matter if it's in Christ or not.
The problem with the theology of faith alone is that it seems that no matter what fruit they produce, it they think they are saved it's all good.
Really? So, it really does depend on our deeds.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
No, I didn't. I said I had no problem keeping the 10 commandments. If anyone sees that as perfection then they don't know what perfection is.
brotherofJared
Well-known member
Do u? Did I say I was perfect? No.
Bonnie
Super Member
If we must do deeds to qualify us to receive grace, then grace is no longer grace--God's undeserved favor. THIS is how we receive God's grace "For by grace you are saved, THROUGH FAITH--and that NOT of yourselves; it is the gift of God--and NOT by works, so no one may boast."
Sure.
Except Hebrews 11:6 says that "without faith, it is impossible to please God."
That was more Joseph Smith's problem--he produced rotten fruit and declared it "good" and a command from God--like marrying young, teen-aged girls through spiritual blackmail, and other men's wives, who were still married to their first husbands. Who preached the WoW, while often not following it himself, like by drinking, and smoking cigars.
No, faith alone just means we are saved by grace through faith and not by any of our works--either works of the law or works done in righteousness--but true faith will then RESULT IN PRODUCING good works. As Paul writes in Eph. 2:10--"For we are God's workmanship, created IN Christ Jesus for good works, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them. "
What does it mean to be created IN Christ Jesus for good works?
yes--the "deed" of having saving faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, great and free, but even that is God's doing, as per Ephesians 2:8-9 and where Jesus said "This is the WORK of God: that you believe on Him Whom God has sent."
She has nothing else to say or do other than attack you personally. And yes you are right, she has no clue as to what Jesus said in this instance.
Baptism is not a work of human merit. That’s all I’m saying. Of course it is our decision and we have to consent to be baptized by immersion for the remission of sins. Baptism is symbolic of the death and resurrection of Christ therefore when we are baptized it is an act of faith in the power of God, who raised Christ from death.
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Salvation is a free gift yet it is also our inheritance. And just like in an inheritance qualifying for or meeting certain stipulations in the will does not pay for the free gift.
This isn’t about Joseph Smith.
Why are we then “created IN Christ Jesus for good works, which He has prepared in advance for us to do, so that we may walk in them.” [Ephesians 2:10] The key statement that you said and with which I agree with you is “we are saved by grace through faith and not by any of our works--either works of the law or works done in righteousness”. It is strictly our works done apart from Christ that do not save us as Jesus said “I am the vine, ye are the branches. He that abideth in Me and I in Him, the same bringeth forth much fruit, for without Me ye can do nothing. [John 15:5] However it does not logically follow from this that we are saved by faith alone apart from any works as the apostle James said that “Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.” [James 2:17]
Answer your own questionn. What does it mean to be in Christ? And then I’ll give you the correct answer.
First tell me where BrotherofJared ever said that we are saved by works apart from grace. Belief requires obedience just like our faith cooperates with our works, and as a result of this synergistic union, our faith is made perfect. This is what is called a living faith where just as our spirit animates our physical body it is our works that animate our faith.
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I believe BrotherofJared that we are not saved by work apart from the grace of God.
dberrie2020
Super Member
I'm not sure what "work of human merit" means. I've only heard faith alone adherents use that term. It sounds a lot like the faith alone theology approach preached here, and Aaron's dialog. Perhaps you could define that for us?
Repentance and water baptism is the work of a principle and an ordinance which brings forth the grace of God:
Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
In that scripture--the remission of sins is merited(dependent upon) on repentance and water baptism--having faith in Christ.
That has a work with the promise of God's grace.
If it is an "act of faith"--then it is a work--and faith without works is dead. With it--comes the promise of the power of God--even the forgiveness of sins. I associate that with being born again.
If one does not believe water baptism is a work--then they join faith alone theology--as then the remission of sins comes with a faith without works. If a person has the remission of sins--then eternal life abides within him, IMO.
One comes to the waters of baptism with the faith in God's promise, but that does not annul the fact water baptism is still a work which is performed, having faith in Christ.
dberrie2020
Super Member
I agree with that also.
Whenever scriptures are posted which show God extending His grace to them which obey Him--that is usually an example of "earning grace", and "salvation by works"--to faith alone adherents.
The problem with that is--the scriptures are replete with verses which connect man's obedience to Christ--with His grace:
Acts 2:38---King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Richard7
Well-known member
Or it may also mean be faithful and complete.
I think our problem is one of semantics. If what you mean by earn is to qualify or meet certain stipulations by one's behaviour or achievement then I can see your point and I agree with it. In this sense yes our salvation isn’t free as we have to be faithful and do the works required of us. The apostle Paul did however say that our salvation is free. What the apostle Paul meant by the statement that we are “justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus” [Romans 3:24] is that as Elder Dieter F. Uchtdorf has said “Salvation cannot be bought with the currency of obedience; it is purchased by the blood of the Son of God.” Salvation is also described by the apostle Peter as an inheritance. [1 Peter 1:3-4] The gift is free. Meeting the qualifications or the stipulations to receive the gift is not earning the gift by our works. Our inheritance is not bought with the currency of obedience but purchased by the blood of the Son of God. This does not mean that we don’t have to do things to meet the qualifications of our inheritance.
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When Christ said “Be ye therefore perfect,” He wasn’t telling me to constantly attempt to reach some impossible standard. He was helping me see my divine potential. He was asking me to look forward to a glorious future. As President Russell M. Nelson said: “Perfection is pending. It can come in full only after the Resurrection and only through the Lord. It awaits all who love Him and keep His commandments.” [Perfection Pending]
God can do a lot with us when we’re earnestly doing our best to follow Him and serve His children.
I’ve found a lot of comfort in these words by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland:“I believe that Jesus did not intend His sermon on this subject to be a verbal hammer for battering us about our shortcomings. No, I believe He intended it to be a tribute to who and what God the Eternal Father is and what we can achieve with Him in eternity” [Be Ye Therefore Perfect—Eventually]
[blog Perfection Is Our Potential, Not Our Present RM Jennings]
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You’ve made the fallacy of a false dilemma. Choose between Christ or his church. As Latter-day Saints we choose both.