Will LBGT Marriages be accepted Doctrine and Women Holding the Priesthood.

[Markk]

Well here it is again for you..... I previously and in my second response to you stated this... "
Chuckle. You are trying to equate Gods laws with civil or secular laws...even Christ made that distinction in the Bible. I don't see the Church or Doctrine shifting away from the Proclamation on Marriage... if so how? show me doctrinal changes.... You love to use generalities and extrapolation, assumptions are not facts or your own conjectures.

So again, maybe you're just evading the question, where in our Doctrine are you seeing changes being made towards gay lifestyles.
My remark about fabricating was used as follows:

"Explain how our doctrine has changed; you completely ignore the Proclamation and until that changes you are only fabricating and concocting up as something you think is happening with our Doctrine..."

if you missed the emphasis that is okay, just do not accuse me of using it incorrectly.... if you have a source that shows our doctrine has changed, then I would have to also change my mind about how to look at it...

I worded that poorly about my friend, he admitted before he was baptized he was gay and has now since quit that lifestyle and is even looking for a female partner to date...

I was released from the Bishopric when a new Bishop was called, I'm now the Elders Quorum President and more busy then when I was in the Bishopric...





Reply

I never said your doctrine changed Ralf, …focus…the topic and question at hand (the OP) is do I believe “It Will Change.” Your OP reads future tense. You asked me if I believe it will “eventually” change. You were caught with your britches down with the news I gave you, and are now changing it from a future tense question to a present tense doctrinal change. It is that clear.

I simply replied what has occurred sense we last discussed this topic, and that the recent changes shows a trend towards that direction. The one time they doubled down and tried to be agreesive, they had to back down to the membership and reverse their decision.

LOL Ralf…boy that is quite a jump of words there in regards to your friend…what is his calling? IYO…is your friend still gay, or is he now a hero sexual man?

 

[Richard7]

I never said your doctrine changed Ralf, …focus…the topic and question at hand (the OP) is do I believe “It Will Change.” Your OP reads future tense. You asked me if I believe it will “eventually” change. You were caught with your britches down with the news I gave you, and are now changing it from a future tense question to a present tense doctrinal change. It is that clear.

I simply replied what has occurred sense we last discussed this topic, and that the recent changes shows a trend towards that direction. The one time they doubled down and tried to be agreesive, they had to back down to the membership and reverse their decision.

LOL Ralf…boy that is quite a jump of words there in regards to your friend…what is his calling? IYO…is your friend still gay, or is he now a hero sexual man?

I appreciate your responses, just trying to find clarity in your responses.... Doctrine is number one to me so of course I would be interested in sources, good sources you may have mentioned and are on to something I should be aware of.... BYU is not a source I would consider creditable with the Church Doctrine; allowing so many progressive teachers and professors teaching there and eager to change LDS history or revisionism...

I'm not trying to argue with any continuous attempt on my part to change your mind as you seem set on seeing changes which I don't actually see or live. When they do away with the Doctrine, Proclamation on Marriage and Priesthood for all, male and female, then I will have to check my testimony and see if it can stand up to what I have always been taught and studied in the Scriptures.

Sorry about the tense confusion, present or future does not matter to me, both the same as far as I'm concerned...so yes that is clear, and I don't see a gravitation toward any future changes in Doctrine or the Priesthood. I'm sure your satisfied that those changes are very near and it will eventually prove your right to your great joy and happiness. Joy and Happiness is not a slight on my part towards you, but only to agree that you have great empathy for Gays and their personal transition to normalcy...

Hero sexual man, really? was that necessary Marrk...

Regards, Richard.

 

[Markk]

I appreciate your responses, just trying to find clarity in your responses.... Doctrine is number one to me so of course I would be interested in sources, good sources you may have mentioned and are on to something I should be aware of.... BYU is not a source I would consider creditable with the Church Doctrine; allowing so many progressive teachers and professors teaching there and eager to change LDS history or revisionism...

I'm not trying to argue with any continuous attempt on my part to change your mind as you seem set on seeing changes which I don't actually see or live. When they do away with the Doctrine, Proclamation on Marriage and Priesthood for all, male and female, then I will have to check my testimony and see if it can stand up to what I have always been taught and studied in the Scriptures.

Sorry about the tense confusion, present or future does not matter to me, both the same as far as I'm concerned...so yes that is clear, and I don't see a gravitation toward any future changes in Doctrine or the Priesthood. I'm sure your satisfied that those changes are very near and it will eventually prove your right to your great joy and happiness. Joy and Happiness is not a slight on my part towards you, but only to agree that you have great empathy for Gays and their personal transition to normalcy...

Hero sexual man, really? was that necessary Marrk...

Regards, Richard.

LOL…first of all “hero sexual”…thats funny…it was a typo for heterosexual..sorry.

Moving past the typo…I think my response is very clear, I simply showed you how the church is softening and trending towards supporting LBGT issues and certainly not backwards or remaining the as they were say 30 years ago, or even 13 years ago with the church stance on prop 8.

I’m not nor have I never ever denied what church doctrine is on this…in fact I believe my assertions naturally assume a strict doctrine, inwhich they are trending away from…otherwise my assertions make zero sense Ralf.

BYU is church owned and GA managed… here is the Board of Trustees…. https://catalog.byu.edu/about-byu/administration

Ralf I believe it is pretty hard to separate the church from BYU, they are intertwined. In fact BYU sponsors programs, like the Neal Maxwell Institute, which is on campus, help define church doctrine for the GA. It is well known that the Church’s “Gospel Topic Essays” were all drafted by LDS scholars, and they worked closely with the GA pre publication efforts. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/essays?lang=eng

Church Board of Education and Board of Trustees​

President Russell M. Nelson
Chairman
President Dallin H. Oaks
First Vice Chairman
President Henry B. Eyring
Second Vice Chairman
Elder Jeffrey R. Holland
Board Member
Elder D. Todd Christofferson
Board Member
Elder Paul V. Johnson
Board Member
Elder Michael T. Ringwood
Board Member
Bishop Gérald Caussé
Board Member
Sister Camille N. Johnson
Board Member
Sister Bonnie H. Cordon
Board Member
Brother Steven J. Lund
Board Member
R. Kelly Haws
Secretary

Also Ralf it is very hypocritical that you state BYU is not creditable source for doctrine, when you are famous for using FAIR as your go to sourse for answer regarding LDS doctrine and thought. FAIR and the Brethren work closely together along with the Neal Maxwell Institute. But I will take that for your word and will remind you every time you present something from LDS scholarship in regards to a doctrine or thought…and repeat this…” BYU is not a source I would consider creditable with the Church Doctrine; allowing so many progressive teachers and professors teaching there and eager to change LDS history or revisionism...”

I'm not trying to argue with any continuous attempt on my part to change your mind as you seem set on seeing changes which I don't actually see or live. When they do away with the Doctrine, Proclamation on Marriage and Priesthood for all, male and female, then I will have to check my testimony and see if it can stand up to what I have always been taught and studied in the Scriptures.

Fine, but that really has nothing to do with the OP, or are previous conversation a few years back. If you can’t see these changes, I can’t make you, but they are clearly changing that shows the church has softens, and no doubt the folks have.

Sorry about the tense confusion, present or future does not matter to me, both the same as far as I'm concerned...so yes that is clear, and I don't see a gravitation toward any future changes in Doctrine or the Priesthood. I'm sure your satisfied that those changes are very near and it will eventually prove your right to your great joy and happiness. Joy and Happiness is not a slight on my part towards you, but only to agree that you have great empathy for Gays and their personal transition to normalcy...

Well Ralf, your OP made perfect sense an was a fair question…and I answered it not personally, but with true facts, and easily backed up as such. Your current change of thought is much different.

Ralf, where have I shown empathy to Gays, and what does that even mean, and what has I said or provided reason to say such. I am pointing out, as asked by you how the LDS church softened it position on the LGBT issue and community.

If I had to put this in a few words I would just have to say you again got caught with your pants down with the OP question and you are hiving a hard time dealing with these changes.

 

[Richard7]

LOL…first of all “hero sexual”…thats funny…it was a typo for heterosexual..sorry.

I accept, thx.

Moving past the typo…I think my response is very clear, I simply showed you how the church is softening and trending towards supporting LBGT issues and certainly not backwards or remaining the as they were say 30 years ago, or even 13 years ago with the church stance on prop 8.

Yes perfectly clear, which does not mean I have to agree with my not supporting Prop 8. You recently claimed that LDS are told what to do, how to dress and what to thing or something like that....

I’m not nor have I never ever denied what church doctrine is on this…in fact I believe my assertions naturally assume a strict doctrine, inwhich they are trending away from…otherwise my assertions make zero sense Ralf.

Thx again, yes the Doctrine is very clear on both Marriage and Priesthood...you seem to be saying that in time this will also change.

BYU is church owned and GA managed… here is the Board of Trustees…. https://catalog.byu.edu/about-byu/administration

Yes it is, and again there is a view of free expression and why should we censure free speech if we are all about agency and free to worship as we please, after all there are a lot of secular folks out there who do not believe as we do...so should we be hypocrites or freedom lovers?
https://catalog.byu.edu/about-byu/administration

Ralf I believe it is pretty hard to separate the church from BYU, they are intertwined. In fact BYU sponsors programs, like the Neal Maxwell Institute, which is on campus, help define church doctrine for the GA. It is well known that the Church’s “Gospel Topic Essays” were all drafted by LDS scholars, and they worked closely with the GA pre publication efforts. https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics-essays/essays?lang=eng

Absolutely it is hard. Should BYU be in the business of converting our students or should we allow them to judge for themselves, what would Christ do? After all we teach that during the millennium there will be other religions still on the earth, preaching and teaching their own religion even thought Christ will be here...

Also Ralf it is very hypocritical that you state BYU is not creditable source for doctrine, when you are famous for using FAIR as your go to sourse for answer regarding LDS doctrine and thought. FAIR and the Brethren work closely together along with the Neal Maxwell Institute. But I will take that for your word and will remind you every time you present something from LDS scholarship in regards to a doctrine or thought…and repeat this…” BYU is not a source I would consider creditable with the Church Doctrine; allowing so many progressive teachers and professors teaching there and eager to change LDS history or revisionism...”

Yep, I would not use them as a source to make comparisons with our Doctrine or our General authorities, Apostles and Prophet.
If I was to try and censure free speech and discussions then I could be called a hypocrite.

I'm not trying to argue with any continuous attempt on my part to change your mind as you seem set on seeing changes which I don't actually see or live. When they do away with the Doctrine, Proclamation on Marriage and Priesthood for all, male and female, then I will have to check my testimony and see if it can stand up to what I have always been taught and studied in the Scriptures.

Fine, but that really has nothing to do with the OP, or are previous conversation a few years back. If you can’t see these changes, I can’t make you, but they are clearly changing that shows the church has softens, and no doubt the folks have.

Yes there is a whole lot of change, we have the orthodoxs like me and the new age of progressives... again why did God allow the tree of good and evil even to be available to Adam if he wanted only one Doctrine and one Salvation... do you not see your own faulty reasoning.

Sorry about the tense confusion, present or future does not matter to me, both the same as far as I'm concerned...so yes that is clear, and I don't see a gravitation toward any future changes in Doctrine or the Priesthood. I'm sure your satisfied that those changes are very near and it will eventually prove your right to your great joy and happiness. Joy and Happiness is not a slight on my part towards you, but only to agree that you have great empathy for Gays and their personal transition to normalcy...

Well Ralf, your OP made perfect sense an was a fair question…and I answered it not personally, but with true facts, and easily backed up as such. Your current change of thought is much different.

Not at all, it was a very valid questioning to see if you were still of the same mind set...

Ralf, where have I shown empathy to Gays, and what does that even mean, and what has I said or provided reason to say such. I am pointing out, as asked by you how the LDS church softened it position on the LGBT issue and community.

If I had to put this in a few words I would just have to say you again got caught with your pants down with the OP question and you are hiving a hard time dealing with these changes.

So sorry, my bad, guess I read you wrong. Not sure why you have to use such language as caught with my pants down, that is condescending don't you think...

Regards, Richard.

 

[Markk]

Yes perfectly clear, which does not mean I have to agree with my not supporting Prop 8. You recently claimed that LDS are told what to do, how to dress and what to thing or something like that....

I’m not sure what your point is here? The truth is that the church did push and support prop 8, and the church membership got behind the brethren on this issue.

I will note that you support same sex marriage and opposed the brethren on this issue. Here is there statement from the church, on the issue that you now state you did not support.

Preserving Traditional Marriage and Strengthening Families

In March 2000 California voters overwhelmingly approved a state law providing that “Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.” The California Supreme Court recently reversed this vote of the people. On November 4, 2 008, Californians will vote on a proposed amendment to the California state constitution that will now restore the March 2000 definition of marriage approved by the voters.

The Church’s teachings and position on this moral issue are unequivocal. Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God, and the formation of families is central to the Creator’s plan for His children. Children are entitled to be born within this bond of marriage.

A broad-based coalition of churches and other organizations placed the proposed amendment on the ballot. The Church will participate with this coalition in seeking its passage. Local Church leaders will provide information about how you may become involved in this important cause.

We ask that you do all you can to support the proposed constitutional amendment by donating of your means and time to assure that marriage in California is legally defined as being between a man and a woman. Our best efforts are required to preserve the sacred institution of marriage.

I did say that members are told what to do…it is very controlling and even if softening, it still controls many aspects of your life and dictaits what you will be taught and basics on how. You are told what ward you must attend, and other such things. You are put in a hierarchy of sorts in your ward, and told what classes you are to attend based on ones worthiness. You seem to forget I was born and raised in the church, and certainly understand the pressure that he church puts on their members…which is one reason we see that softening and their backing down on once firm stances, such as there efforts to stand against Gay marriage.

 

[Markk]

Markk said:
I’m not nor have I never ever denied what church doctrine is on this…in fact I believe my assertions naturally assume a strict doctrine, inwhich they are trending away from…otherwise my assertions make zero sense Ralf.

Thx again, yes the Doctrine is very clear on both Marriage and Priesthood...you seem to be saying that in time this will also change.

Yes I did, several times? It has already changed in many ways, and I believe someday it will change drastically if the trends keep moving the directions they are. I doubt it will be in my lifetime, but it will change…the LDS church is designed to change, and unwittingly encourages it though personal and continuing revelation. If Nelson came out tomorrow, and said he received a revelation from God that same set marraige was to be accepted and performed in the church…would you support it?

I believe what you are missing here and/or denying, is that while the brethren are trying hard to stay committed and hold tight to traditional doctrines and policies, the people are not, and many, like yourself opposing their efforts in prop 8, are moving the church towards a more progressive and secular organization.

I just found this article, i have no idea who this guy is, but I googled LDS memberships support of Gay marriage in Utah, and there were scores and scores of hits like this to explore ,if one wanted to.

Utah billionaire leaves Mormon church, donates $600,000 to LGBTQ group

Businessman Jeff Green wrote in a letter that the church "is actively and currently doing harm in the world," including to LGBTQ rights.

www.nbcnews.com

Again my point, is that the folks are softening, and the church WILL, follow the folks and public pressures, they always have, such as with polygamy, Blacks and the Priesthood…etc.

 

[Markk]

Yes it is, and again there is a view of free expression and why should we censure free speech if we are all about agency and free to worship as we please, after all there are a lot of secular folks out there who do not believe as we do...so should we be hypocrites or freedom lovers?
https://catalog.byu.edu/about-byu/administration

Ralf…well, I believe you need to read the current honor code, and maybe the church hand book. In other words according to the honor code as an example…there are strict grooming guides, or you can get kicked off campus. The same with drinking a cup of tea or coffee, propane or vulgar language, member are required to attend church services…again or get disciplined or kicked off campus.

So how does you comment above, compliment the other items in the code.

Also if in context with their accepting the current bill…are you saying that the church does not have the right to their opinions and free speech…that does not make sense at all. The church has a right to either support or not support certain issues within the law if they want to stay tax exempt on tithe…or stay silent. They obviously chose to support it, when they did not have to…and as I wrote…I believe it is mostly because of membership pressures they chose to do an about face.

 

[Markk]

Absolutely it is hard. Should BYU be in the business of converting our students or should we allow them to judge for themselves, what would Christ do? After all we teach that during the millennium there will be other religions still on the earth, preaching and teaching their own religion even thought Christ will be here...

This just proves my point about how the church and attitudes are changing….30 years ago this kind of thought might have got you excommunicated. But FYI, the church demands that all church members that attend BYU must attend church services, or be disciplined…should they be allowed to judge for themselves?

Ralf, there is no way around it that the church has caved on this issue…and your trying to justify it without thinking through the other requirements of the Honor Code makes your argument very hypocritical.

Why must you defend the church on this, and not just accept the fact they have softened? It is a un-defendable position you are taking.

 

[Markk]

Yep, I would not use them as a source to make comparisons with our Doctrine or our General authorities, Apostles and Prophet.
If I was to try and censure free speech and discussions then I could be called a hypocrite.

I believe it would be hypocritical to not support BYU as a source, greatly. In fact if you have followed this, and did a little study on your own…the honor code statement that was given was on the LDS church letterhead and does not even mention BYU, but from the church division of the “Church Educational System”…which the Prophet sits at the head of, and as mentioned is the head trustee of BYU.

Do you believe that this policy change was not signed off and approved by Nelson and the 1st presidency, (and a team of lawyers)?

Plus as I mentioned, you have now taken a position that BYU sources, and by default the NMI, and FAIR sources.

 

[Markk]

Yes there is a whole lot of change, we have the orthodoxs like me and the new age of progressives... again why did God allow the tree of good and evil even to be available to Adam if he wanted only one Doctrine and one Salvation... do you not see your own faulty reasoning.

But, it was the GA that issued the change and turn around in policy? Are they New Age? What I see is that you are all over he place here. You also said you opposed the church with prop 8…yet here say your are orthodox?

Ralf it would have been better and again wiser if you would just concede that the church has softened on this, and as I wrote the trend is a more accepting view of same sex marriage.

 

[Markk]

Not at all, it was a very valid questioning to see if you were still of the same mind set...

Which I stated…did you read what i wrote? I stated your question was fair, and that my mindset was pretty much the same, and I gave you examples of the church softening and trend toward acceptance.

So sorry, my bad, guess I read you wrong. Not sure why you have to use such language as caught with my pants down, that is condescending don't you think...

Regards, Richard.

Well, it is a term or idiom, I often use, and mostly for myself, and no I did not believe it is condescending at all, it is just a term that means you did not see that coming and underestimated something of did not do your homework. It is some dictionary’s.

Like not looking at the weather reports and putting away the lawn furniture before it rains, or not checking out a link or posting off of emotions instead of factual data, it might come back to bite you. I would call that getting caught with your pants down…we all do it. I got caught with my pants down over a recent storm by no putting enough sand bags down…it happens.

 

[Richard7]

Which I stated…did you read what i wrote? I stated your question was fair, and that my mindset was pretty much the same, and I gave you examples of the church softening and trend toward acceptance.



Well, it is a term or idiom, I often use, and mostly for myself, and no I did not believe it is condescending at all, it is just a term that means you did not see that coming and underestimated something of did not do your homework. It is some dictionary’s.

Like not looking at the weather reports and putting away the lawn furniture before it rains, or not checking out a link or posting off of emotions instead of factual data, it might come back to bite you. I would call that getting caught with your pants down…we all do it. I got caught with my pants down over a recent storm by no putting enough sand bags down…it happens.

Well you to me seem like you are lowering yourself and should maybe ask what would Christ have said... not my job though to make you over.
How is my current change of thought different?

Factual date is what one wants it to be as is revisionist history... everything has a bias, even you Marrk. So is your data peer reviewed, you seem to act that it's fool proof data? this is again not a contentious criticism, its asking for a honest reply without your usual condescending remarks.

 

[Markk]

Well you to me seem like you are lowering yourself and should maybe ask what would Christ have said... not my job though to make you over.
How is my current change of thought different?

Factual date is what one wants it to be as is revisionist history... everything has a bias, even you Marrk. So is your data peer reviewed, you seem to act that it's fool proof data? this is again not a contentious criticism, its asking for a honest reply without your usual condescending remarks.

Peer reviewed for what and by whom?…You have the official changes from the church? All i am doing is showing you, what your church has been up too since we last discussed this topic. Are you actually saying that my reporting the changes by the church,which are in multiple major News Papers, the LDS News Room, and well…all over the internet needs to be peered reviewed…do you even know what that means?

I have no idea how your current change of thought is different, I don’t care…Your question was in regards to what my opinion was, and I have been clear and backed my opinion up with factual data from the church. But I was a bit surprised that you opposed prop 8, especially after you accused me of things that are far from true and unwarranted.

 

[Richard7]

Peer reviewed for what and by whom?…You have the official changes from the church? All i am doing is showing you, what your church has been up too since we last discussed this topic. Are you actually saying that my reporting the changes by the church,which are in multiple major News Papers, the LDS News Room, and well…all over the internet needs to be peered reviewed…do you even know what that means?

I have no idea how your current change of thought is different, I don’t care…Your question was in regards to what my opinion was, and I have been clear and backed my opinion up with factual data from the church. But I was a bit surprised that you opposed prop 8, especially after you accused me of things that are far from true and unwarranted.

Interesting backpeadle:
1). Post #23 Marrk: Well Ralf, your OP made perfect sense an was a fair question…and I answered it not personally, but with true facts, and easily backed up as such. Your current change of thought is much different.

Source please and exact wording...
2). But, it was the GA that issued the change and turn around in policy (without source)
3). the church demands that all church members that attend BYU must attend church services, or be disciplined
4). there are strict grooming guides, or you can get kicked off campus. The same with drinking a cup of tea or coffee, propane or vulgar language, member are required to attend church services…again or get disciplined or kicked off campus. You say honor code, show me the exact wording and the discipline...
5). the honor code statement that was given was on the LDS church letterhead and does not even mention BYU, but from the church division of the “Church Educational System”…which the Prophet sits at the head of, and as mentioned is the head trustee of BYU.
6). You are told what ward you must attend, and other such things. You are put in a hierarchy of sorts in your ward, and told what classes you are to attend based on ones worthiness.

Well you pretty much mangled all the above with wording that you can't prove or evidence... nice try.

 

[Richard7]

I never said your doctrine changed Ralf, …focus…the topic and question at hand (the OP) is do I believe “It Will Change.” Your OP reads future tense. You asked me if I believe it will “eventually” change. You were caught with your britches down with the news I gave you, and are now changing it from a future tense question to a present tense doctrinal change. It is that clear.

You seem to forget what you claim and then go right on as if we are to swallow your not so accurate data... chuckle.
Now change is one thing but doctrine is another and your below claim is by continuing revelation which means doctrine changes.
Marrk: "LDS church is designed to change, and unwittingly encourages it though personal and continuing revelation."

I simply replied what has occurred sense we last discussed this topic, and that the recent changes shows a trend towards that direction. The one time they doubled down and tried to be agreesive, they had to back down to the membership and reverse their decision.

LOL Ralf…boy that is quite a jump of words there in regards to your friend…what is his calling? IYO…is your friend still gay, or is he now a hero sexual man?

Disgusting .

 

[Markk]

You seem to forget what you claim and then go right on as if we are to swallow your not so accurate data... chuckle.
Now change is one thing but doctrine is another and your below claim is by continuing revelation which means doctrine changes.
Marrk: "LDS church is designed to change, and unwittingly encourages it though personal and continuing revelation."


Disgusting .

What are you even talking about?

 

[Markk]

Interesting backpeadle:
1). Post #23 Marrk: Well Ralf, your OP made perfect sense an was a fair question…and I answered it not personally, but with true facts, and easily backed up as such. Your current change of thought is much different.

Source please and exact wording...
2). But, it was the GA that issued the change and turn around in policy (without source)
3). the church demands that all church members that attend BYU must attend church services, or be disciplined
4). there are strict grooming guides, or you can get kicked off campus. The same with drinking a cup of tea or coffee, propane or vulgar language, member are required to attend church services…again or get disciplined or kicked off campus. You say honor code, show me the exact wording and the discipline...
5). the honor code statement that was given was on the LDS church letterhead and does not even mention BYU, but from the church division of the “Church Educational System”…which the Prophet sits at the head of, and as mentioned is the head trustee of BYU.
6). You are told what ward you must attend, and other such things. You are put in a hierarchy of sorts in your ward, and told what classes you are to attend based on ones worthiness.

Well you pretty much mangled all the above with wording that you can't prove or evidence... nice try.

LOL…here do some reading

Church Educational System Honor Code

policy.byu.edu

 

[Richard7]

Thx again, yes the Doctrine is very clear on both Marriage and Priesthood...you seem to be saying that in time this will also change.

Yes I did, several times? It has already changed in many ways, and I believe someday it will change drastically if the trends keep moving the directions they are. I doubt it will be in my lifetime, but it will change…the LDS church is designed to change, and unwittingly encourages it though personal and continuing revelation. If Nelson came out tomorrow, and said he received a revelation from God that same set marraige was to be accepted and performed in the church…would you support it?

You're not making any sense! My reply to you was specifically about Marriage and Priesthood and you say its changed several times.

I also don't deal in hypotheticals...

I believe what you are missing here and/or denying, is that while the brethren are trying hard to stay committed and hold tight to traditional doctrines and policies, the people are not, and many, like yourself opposing their efforts in prop 8, are moving the church towards a more progressive and secular organization.

Well since you believe we are commanded in all things I can see where you have gotten lost and possibly made you leave the church.
I'm sure your one that does not want to be told or commanded on what to do, what to ware, how to think, or what Ward you have to go to.

I supported prop #8 based on my own political views, I was once a member of the John Birch Society and was not even aware at the time the Church was sponsoring prop 8.... nice try Marrk.

I just found this article, i have no idea who this guy is, but I googled LDS memberships support of Gay marriage in Utah, and there were scores and scores of hits like this to explore ,if one wanted to.

Utah billionaire leaves Mormon church, donates $600,000 to LGBTQ group

Businessman Jeff Green wrote in a letter that the church "is actively and currently doing harm in the world," including to LGBTQ rights.

www.nbcnews.com

Again my point, is that the folks are softening, and the church WILL, follow the folks and public pressures, they always have, such as with polygamy, Blacks and the Priesthood…etc.

The Church is hemorrhaging as we speak, I am sad that revisionist and progressives have such a foot into our church and Universities.
Your post obviously show the results of one who lost their testimony and have not been able to at least leave the church alone.

Kindest regards good buddy, your ambition that at least you will see the day all of this proves true for you and women will have the priesthood and gays can marry who ever they want.... and you will be alive still to see this great change... as for me, its never going to happen. The progressives and revisionist are on their way out as I speak. Lots of good books out there, check out Jospeh Smith Foundation where they tear into the likes of scholars Richard Bushman and Lenard Arrington...

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[Markk]

You're not making any sense! My reply to you was specifically about Marriage and Priesthood and you say its changed several times.

I also don't deal in hypotheticals...

Focus Ralf… marriage use to include plural marriages, and the ph used to ban blacks until it was changed…also there has been multiple changes in the ceremony… the PH had seventies, then removed them from thr PH…there was also correlation added to the PH…they are the ones that tell you what to teach…here is a good read if you have the openness to read it.

https://mormonstudies.as.virginia.edu/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/JMH-Flake-Early-Mormon-Marriage.pdf

 

[Markk]

I supported prop #8 based on my own political views, I was once a member of the John Birch Society and was not even aware at the time the Church was sponsoring prop 8.... nice try Marrk.

You said you did not support the church with prop 8…here, did you not?