Leaving the Roman Catholic Church

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romishpopishorganist said:
That depends what you mean by "all of the blessings" and whether they do so with full knowledge that they are rejecting the truth of God.

For the sake of argument I am going to assume that the person who left the RCC, like many of the former Catholics on this site, did so in complete and utter ignorance of what they were doing and believed in good conscience that they needed to do so becasue the RCC teaches unbiblical doctrine.

In leaving the RCC, one does not necessarily loose the blessings of Salvation. In other words Christ is still in you. What you loose are the blessings of the Sacraments--and the encounter with Christ in the Sacraments, especially the Eucharist. The Sacraments, especially the Eucharist are meant to nourish and sustain us in the life. They are the means by which God reaches out to us and reveals His love and bestows Grace. That is what one looses when one leaves the RCC.
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So, in your indoctrinated Roman Catholic mind, persons who have received Christ as their Savior, and who are called out of the Roman Catholic Church by hearing the voice of their Savior urging them to "Come out of her" should instead stay in the man-made Roman Catholic Church in order to listen to and obey the Roman Catholic pope?

[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. [5] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Revelations 18
 
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RayneBeau said:
So, in your indoctrinated Roman Catholic mind, persons who have received Christ as their Savior, and who are called out of the Roman Catholic Church by hearing the voice of their Savior urging them to "Come out of her" should instead stay in the man-made Roman Catholic Church in order to listen to and obey the Roman Catholic pope?

[4] And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. [5] For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Revelations 18
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"Man-made RCC!!??"

It is Protestantism that is the "man-made" religion!
 
Nondenom40 said:
The rcc like all counterfeits have no actual blessings. If you try to live by the law you are cursed (not you but anyone). They placed themselves under the anathema of God by their seeking to abide by the law.
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Here is an example that Roman Catholic's would do well to learn that there is a very quiet expectation and a confidence that rests on the word of God, that in Christ there is an abiding place that He has prepared, but this knowledge is sadly lacking among Roman Catholics. In the Roman Catholic teaching and in the indoctrinated mind of Roman Catholics there is always the thought of a "work" that has to be done in order to receive a blessing, and even though they pray for help, they still believe that the "work" is theirs to do. Roman Catholics fail continually and become hopeless; and their despondency only increases their feelings of helplessness.
 
RayneBeau said:
Here is an example that Roman Catholic's would do well to learn that there is a very quiet expectation and a confidence that rests on the word of God, that in Christ there is an abiding place that He has prepared, but this knowledge is sadly lacking among Roman Catholics. In the Roman Catholic teaching and in the indoctrinated mind of Roman Catholics there is always the thought of a "work" that has to be done in order to receive a blessing, and even though they pray for help, they still believe that the "work" is theirs to do. Roman Catholics fail continually and become hopeless; and their despondency only increases their feelings of helplessness.
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... and so there is no rest for their souls.
 
RayneBeau said:
Here is an example that Roman Catholic's would do well to learn that there is a very quiet expectation and a confidence that rests on the word of God, that in Christ there is an abiding place that He has prepared, but this knowledge is sadly lacking among Roman Catholics.
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You assume much with your hasty generalization. You seem to think that becasue we disagree on doctrine, becasue we disagree on what is or is not scriptural, that it follows we do not know that there is a "very quiet expectation and a confidence that rests on the word of God, that in Christ there is an abiding place that He has prepared."
RayneBeau said:
In the Roman Catholic teaching and in the indoctrinated mind of Roman Catholics there is always the thought of a "work" that has to be done in order to receive a blessing, and even though they pray for help, they still believe that the "work" is theirs to do.
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Well, you see, we use the gift of Faith that God bestows to do works of love. Works of love are indeed ours to do. You seem to have this model in your head that Catholics see the Faith like B.F Skinner: we do a good work, we get a reward. God surely does reward good works, but the MOTIVE behind the work is not the reward, but Faith working in love.

Maybe you should put the Jack Chick pamphlet down--or the John Ankerberg book, or the Jimmy Swaggart book and learn a thing or two?
RayneBeau said:
Roman Catholics fail continually and become hopeless; and their despondency only increases their feelings of helplessness.
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On the contrary, I am filled with great hope!
 
romishpopishorganist said:
You assume much with your hasty generalization. You seem to think that becasue we disagree on doctrine, becasue we disagree on what is or is not scriptural, that it follows we do not know that there is a "very quiet expectation and a confidence that rests on the word of God, that in Christ there is an abiding place that He has prepared."
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More than one Roman Catholic will admit that it is a sacred duty and a blessed privilege to abide in Christ, but most Roman Catholics will continually shrink back before this question: 'Is it possible for a Roman Catholic to have a life of unbroken fellowship with the Savior since a majority of Roman Catholics will instead make every effort to take advantage of each opportunity to attend Roman Catholic novenas to Mary primarily, but also to other saints - such as their namesake, or a RCC saint that shares their birthday, their occupation, or a hobby, etc, etc. They'll attend Masses other than those on Sunday's and HDOO. RC's are also pre-occupied with saying the rosary, going to confession, attending masses to have their throats blessed by St. Blaise, litanies to the saints, crowning Mary with flowers, etc., etc., etc. What RC has time to "abide in Christ"?
 
RayneBeau said:
More than one Roman Catholic will admit that it is a sacred duty and a blessed privilege to abide in Christ, but most Roman Catholics will continually shrink back before this question: 'Is it possible for a Roman Catholic to have a life of unbroken fellowship with the Savior since a majority of Roman Catholics will instead make every effort to take advantage of each opportunity to attend Roman Catholic novenas to Mary primarily, but also to other saints - such as their namesake, or a RCC saint that shares their birthday, their occupation, or a hobby, etc, etc. They'll attend Masses other than those on Sunday's and HDOO. RC's are also pre-occupied with saying the rosary, going to confession, attending masses to have their throats blessed by St. Blaise, litanies to the saints, crowning Mary with flowers, etc., etc., etc. What RC has time to "abide in Christ"?
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I don't understand:

Why does abiding fellowship in Christ rule out devotion to the saints and Mary? Why would the fact that we abide in Christ mean---we have absolutely nothing to do with Mary and the saints? Why does abiding fellowship in Christ mean we cannot love the saints and express that love in the form of devotion?

Put simply: why do you drive a wedge between Christ and the saints? Why do you divorce Christ from the saints? Why do you not see a connection between Christ and the saints? Why do you paint Christian living, and Christian love as zero sum and one dimensional?

Note: in 20 years here at CARM I have yet to get a substantive answer to this question.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
I don't understand:

Why does abiding fellowship in Christ rule out devotion to the saints and Mary?
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Because God said so.

God explicitly commands against worshiping Him through created things. The Exodus passage, can NOT be more clear. No, we absolutely are NOT to worship God “vicariously” by praising and giving adoration to things He has created. Doing so is blatant idolatry.
mary, saints, and angels are NOT God.

Using a different word for worship does not change the crux of what is being done. Directing our prayers to anyone other than God is robbing God of the glory that is His alone.The terminology is not the issue. The problem is the same no matter what word is exchanged for the word worship . Any time we ascribe something that belongs to God to someone else, it is idolatry. The Bible nowhere instructs us to revere, pray to, rely on, or idolize anyone other than God.

Exodus 20:4
“You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below.

Deuteronomy 6:13
Fear the Lord your God, serve him only

Luke 4:8
Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve him only.

Praising, adoring, devotion, etc.... are specific acts of worship. Worship begins within the heart. Giving Him glory with our words and our actions. Worshiping God means crediting to Him the absolute worth that He alone deserves. He is our Creator, our redeemer and Lord. Worship is something that is to be restricted to God alone. No where in Scripture is the Praising, adoring, devotion, etc.... of anyone or anything else, other than God justified.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
I don't understand:

Why does abiding fellowship in Christ rule out devotion to the saints and Mary? Why would the fact that we abide in Christ mean---we have absolutely nothing to do with Mary and the saints? Why does abiding fellowship in Christ mean we cannot love the saints and express that love in the form of devotion?

Put simply: why do you drive a wedge between Christ and the saints? Why do you divorce Christ from the saints? Why do you not see a connection between Christ and the saints? Why do you paint Christian living, and Christian love as zero sum and one dimensional?

Note: in 20 years here at CARM I have yet to get a substantive answer to this question.
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Well of course as a Roman Catholic you wouldn't understand the connection with the parable of the VIne in which our Lord first used the expression "Abide in Me." That parable is so simple, yet so rich in its teaching. It gives you the best and most complete illustration of the meaning of our Lord's command and the union to which He invites us. Read the parable again and realize how it teaches us the nature of our union with Christ.
The connection between the vine and the branch is a living one. No other occassional or temporary union is described here, and no work of man can make it happen.
 
RayneBeau said:
Well of course as a Roman Catholic you wouldn't understand the connection with the parable of the VIne in which our Lord first used the expression "Abide in Me." That parable is so simple, yet so rich in its teaching. It gives you the best and most complete illustration of the meaning of our Lord's command and the union to which He invites us. Read the parable again and realize how it teaches us the nature of our union with Christ.
The connection between the vine and the branch is a living one. No other occasional or temporary union is described here, and no work of man can make it happen.
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You didn't answer my questions. All you did was rant.

What I want to know is--why does being "in Christ" "joined to Christ" "graphed to Christ" "Abiding with Christ" "Abiding in Christ" "Abiding in Me" rule out devotion to the saints and Mary--when they too are in Christ?

Again, why do you see Christian love as zero-sum and one dimensional?
 
RayneBeau said:
When a baptised and indoctrinated Roman Catholic person decides to leave the Roman Catholic Church, do they lose all of the 'blessings' they supposedly had gained as a member of the Roman Catholic Church?
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"Supposedly" yes. I suppose that their "Supposed Blessings" would Supposedly be forfeit.

OF course if they also got BORN AGAIN of the Holy Spirit, that would be an infinitly greater blessing than anything Catholicism could offer, so not a bad exchange, don'cha know.
 
A new day said:
God explicitly commands against worshiping Him through created things. The Exodus passage, can NOT be more clear. No, we absolutely are NOT to worship God “vicariously” by praising and giving adoration to things He has created. Doing so is blatant idolatry.
mary, saints, and angels are NOT God.
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No He doesn't. You have misinterpreted the Exodus passage. He commands against worshiping false gods.

Dan 3:
57 “Bless the Lord, all you works of the Lord;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
58 Bless the Lord, you heavens;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
59 Bless the Lord, you angels of the Lord;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
60 Bless the Lord, all you waters above the heavens;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
61 Bless the Lord, all you powers of the Lord;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
62 Bless the Lord, sun and moon;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
63 Bless the Lord, stars of heaven;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.

64 “Bless the Lord, all rain and dew;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
65 Bless the Lord, all you winds;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
66 Bless the Lord, fire and heat;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
67 Bless the Lord, winter cold and summer heat;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
68 Bless the Lord, dews and falling snow;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
69 Bless the Lord, ice and cold;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
70 Bless the Lord, frosts and snows;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
71 Bless the Lord, nights and days;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
72 Bless the Lord, light and darkness;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
73 Bless the Lord, lightnings and clouds;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.

74 “Let the earth bless the Lord;
let it sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
75 Bless the Lord, mountains and hills;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
76 Bless the Lord, all that grows in the ground;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
77 Bless the Lord, you springs;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
78 Bless the Lord, seas and rivers;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
79 Bless the Lord, you whales and all that swim in the waters;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
80 Bless the Lord, all birds of the air;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
81 Bless the Lord, all wild animals and cattle;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.

82 “Bless the Lord, all people on earth;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
83 Bless the Lord, O Israel;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
84 Bless the Lord, you priests of the Lord;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
85 Bless the Lord, you servants of the Lord;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
86 Bless the Lord, spirits and souls of the righteous;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
87 Bless the Lord, you who are holy and humble in heart;
sing praise to him and highly exalt him forever.
 
romishpopishorganist said:
You didn't answer my questions. All you did was rant.

What I want to know is--why does being "in Christ" "joined to Christ" "graphed to Christ" "Abiding with Christ" "Abiding in Christ" "Abiding in Me" rule out devotion to the saints and Mary--when they too are in Christ?

Again, why do you see Christian love as zero-sum and one dimensional?
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The "branch" (you), is the Creators own work - you are NOT the work of Mary or of any saint - they are NOT the life of the Vine. The sap, and the fruitfulness of the branch are only possible because of it's attachment to the Vine. And so it is with believers too. Their union with the Lord Jesus is no work of a human beings wisdom or will, but an act of God, by which the closest and most complete life-union possible is forged between the Son of God and the sinner. Read carefully to God's Word, romish " God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts" (Gal. 4:6) God did NOT send forth the spirit of Mary or any saint, romish. The same Spirit that dwelt and still dwells in the Son becomes the life of the believer; in the unity of that ONE Spirit, and the fellowship of the same life that is in Christ Jesus, the believer is the one with Him. As between the vine and the branch, it is a life-union that makes them one - not many.
As a Roman Catholic authoritarian you can certainly be devoted to Mary and the saints which is simply conforming to "your church's "tradition." Of course you are always certainly welcome to innovate your own Roman Catholic style and 'system' for "abiding in Christ."
 
RayneBeau said:
The "branch" (you), is the Creators own work - you are NOT the work of Mary or of any saint - they are NOT the life of the Vine.
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And, what? Who said they were? I do not love Mary and the saints becasue I think from them I receive life, I love them becasue they are my brothers and sisters. They are my family.
RayneBeau said:
The sap, and the fruitfulness of the branch are only possible because of it's attachment to the Vine.
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No argument. Of course. Who denied this?
RayneBeau said:
And so it is with believers too. Their union with the Lord Jesus is no work of a human beings wisdom or will, but an act of God, by which the closest and most complete life-union possible is forged between the Son of God and the sinner.
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What does this have to do with anything? When did I deny the above? When did I suggest otherwise?
RayneBeau said:
Read carefully to God's Word, romish " God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts" (Gal. 4:6) God did NOT send forth the spirit of Mary or any saint, romish.
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And what? When did I suggest that the spirit of mary or any saint was sent forth to my heart?
RayneBeau said:
The same Spirit that dwelt and still dwells in the Son becomes the life of the believer; in the unity of that ONE Spirit, and the fellowship of the same life that is in Christ Jesus, the believer is the one with Him. As between the vine and the branch, it is a life-union that makes them one - not many.
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And....what?
RayneBeau said:
As a Roman Catholic authoritarian you can certainly be devoted to Mary and the saints which is simply conforming to "your church's "tradition." Of course you are always certainly welcome to innovate your own Roman Catholic style and 'system' for "abiding in Christ."
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The question, once again, you failed to answer was "Why does abiding in Christ rule you devotion to Mary and the saints?"

Why can't I love Christ, and worship Christ alone, yet love and be devoted to the family of Christ?

Explain to me why everything has to be zero sum and one dimensional in your theology. Where does the Bible teach that Christian living is zero-sum and one dimensional?
 
romishpopishorganist said:
Yes, of course.

How can you love someone without talking to them? Are there people you love but don't talk to? (Outside of a family spat or something that is)
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Yes there are my family members who are in heaven that I love but I do not talk with them. I will have my opportunity when I get there some day. Again let me remind you of; Our prayers and petitions are to be presented to God for only He is omnipresent and hears all our prayers. Saints do not have that capability.

Philippians 4:6​




Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God.

2 Samuel 12:23​



But now the baby is dead, so why should I refuse to eat? Can I bring the baby back to life? No. Some day I will go to him, but he cannot come back to me.”.

Its the same thing with the saints in heaven.
 
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