Church of the Devil described by Mormons

[Aaron32]

There's plenty to know. He wasn't a Christian. He did good works. That seems significant to me, especially that he WASN'T a CHRISTIAN. Stop trying to corner the market on righteousness. You're just getting egg on your face.

He didn't go anywhere. You obviously don't know what you're talking about. More egg on your face.

Why would I care? We know where it didn't originate from. He WASN'T a CHRISTIAN.

We do know why God chose him. The angel told him why God chose him. Read the story and stop embarrassing yourself.

This is what is says "2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway"
Whatever he knew, he knew enough. He wasn't led by his own will and desires, He sought to follow God.

Noooooooooo. Are you not paying attention? We DO NOT NEED TO BE CONVERTED TO BE RIGHTEOUS. Righteousness is as righteousness does. Your religious affiliation has nothing to do with it.

Alma seemed to think conversion was a vital part of righteousness. I think both conversion and righteousness are obtained in degrees.

"14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?"

No. Watch this. I define righteousness as righteousness is as righteousness does.

Ok. BoJ-ism at its finest. Your special definition illustrated in circular reasoning, with limited scriptural evidence. Not much else productive to be done here.

 

[Richard7]

This is what is says "2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway"
Whatever he knew, he knew enough. He wasn't led by his own will and desires, He sought to follow God.

Alma seemed to think conversion was a vital part of righteousness. I think both conversion and righteousness are obtained in degrees.

"14 And now behold, I ask of you, my brethren of the church, have ye spiritually been born of God? Have ye received his image in your countenances? Have ye experienced this mighty change in your hearts?"

Ok. BoJ-ism at its finest. Your special definition illustrated in circular reasoning, with limited scriptural evidence. Not much else productive to be done here.

Acting in obedience to God’s commands.... Righteousness..

 

[Aaron32]

Acting in obedience to God’s commands.... Righteousness..

I'll requote what said in post #184:
Moroni 7:
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing. 7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness. 8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God

To expound further, righteousness is more than just obedience. If we trace every commandment back to it's roots they are all an extension of the Shema:

Deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might

1 Samuel 16:7 But the Lord said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the Lord seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the Lord looketh on the heart.

Matt 23:
27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men’s bones, and of all uncleanness. 28 Even so ye also outwardly appear righteous unto men, but within ye are full of hypocrisy and iniquity.

2 Ne 31:
6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfil all righteousness in being baptized by water? 7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
But keep reading...
13 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, I know that if ye shall follow the Son, with full purpose of heart, acting no hypocrisy and no deception before God, but with real intent, repenting of your sins, witnessing unto the Father that ye are willing to take upon you the name of Christ, by baptism—yea, by following your Lord and your Savior down into the water, according to his word, behold, then shall ye receive the Holy Ghost; yea, then cometh the baptism of fire and of the Holy Ghost; and then can ye speak with the tongue of angels, and shout praises unto the Holy One of Israel.

 

[Markk]

Acting in obedience to God’s commands.... Righteousness..

Hey Ralf,

It is “self righteousness,” not the righteousness of God. How may times, LOL even here, do we see someone do something or say something and we think…”what a self righteous you know what.” LOL…ever though of me that way? Our self righteousness for the very most part is a prideful and hypocritical by nature. A trying to get a one up on others righteousness. While Gods righteousness, is a perfect righteousness, without the motives our self righteousness demands. Is one based on pure Agape Love…only God has.

This is the Rightness that the Bible speaks of and why believers are clothed in His righteousness in that again, it is perfect and settles the demand of appeasement that God requires. God looks at a believer as a Jude’s would look at someone on trial, and declares a believer “not guilty” because He sees us through and in the Righteousness of Christ. Many of the words used in the NT are judicial words, and when we are set apart as Christian…we are “declared righteous.”

 

[Markk]

Are you suggesting in any way that we even consider salvation by self? I think you have not really or accurately debated the doctrine of LDS Salvation only through Christ and by Christ...

I have no idea what you believe, but I can tell you LDS doctrine demands personal salvation, not to be confused with general salvation, must be individually earn by , as the 3rd AoF reads, by obedience to the laws and ordinance of the gospel.

 

[Aaron32]

I have no idea what you believe, but I can tell you LDS doctrine demands personal salvation, not to be confused with general salvation, must be individually receive by , as the 3rd AoF reads, by obedience to the laws and ordinance of the gospel.

There was just one word I needed to fix there.

 

[Richard7]

I have no idea what you believe, but I can tell you LDS doctrine demands personal salvation, not to be confused with general salvation, must be individually earn by , as the 3rd AoF reads, by obedience to the laws and ordinance of the gospel.

Awe but you do know what I believe, we have had many debates so it really points to the issue that you don't really pay any attention to our doctrinal replies and even your own membership... Personal Salvation or Personal obedience to Christs plan for us to keep His commandments, His ordinances and our covenants... why do you not use correct context? And you also continually state demands or earn... He does calls us to repent... and also calls us to be baptized... and that can be found in the Scriptures. But you cannot show or claim I have to personally save myself, yet you still use those words, demands personal salvation. It's also obvious we are not talking about general Salvation.

"15 Keep my commandments continually, and a crown of righteousness thou shalt receive. And except thou do this, where I am you cannot come.
"16 And verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my voice unto all. Amen."

Demands or called?

Consider 1 Timothy 6:11-12

"11 But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness.
"12 Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses."

 

[dberrie2020]

The laws are not what saves you. Obedience to the laws is not what saves you. Works are not what saves you.

It’s what’s in your heart that will save you.

In The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints--it's God's grace which saves one.

 

[dberrie2020]

I have no idea what you believe, but I can tell you LDS doctrine demands personal salvation, not to be confused with general salvation, must be individually earn by , as the 3rd AoF reads, by obedience to the laws and ordinance of the gospel.

Could you show us where the term "earn" is found in the 3rd article of faith?

 

[dberrie2020]

Richard7 said: Acting in obedience to God’s commands.... Righteousness..

Hey Ralf,

It is “self righteousness,” not the righteousness of God.

Could you explain for us why obedience to God's commands is "self righteousness"?

Hebrews 5:9---King James Version
9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Are you claiming God gives eternal salvation to the self righteousness?

Romans 6:16---King James Version
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

How may times, LOL even here, do we see someone do something or say something and we think…”what a self righteous you know what.” LOL…ever though of me that way? Our self righteousness for the very most part is a prideful and hypocritical by nature. A trying to get a one up on others righteousness. While Gods righteousness, is a perfect righteousness, without the motives our self righteousness demands. Is one based on pure Agape Love…only God has.

Are you claiming only God can be righteous?

1 John 3:7---King James Version
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

This is the Rightness that the Bible speaks of and why believers are clothed in His righteousness in that again, it is perfect and settles the demand of appeasement that God requires. God looks at a believer as a Jude’s would look at someone on trial, and declares a believer “not guilty” because He sees us through and in the Righteousness of Christ. Many of the words used in the NT are judicial words, and when we are set apart as Christian…we are “declared righteous.”

The Atonement was Christ's righteousness alone--perfect righteousness.

I don't find it anywhere in the NT where all men aren't judged according to their own works--and that for life or damnation:

John 5:28-29---King James Version
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matthew 16:27---King James Version
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

One might receive of the Blood of the Lamb, if they walk in the Light--but that if after they are found worthy of the Lamb's Blood--not before.

1 John 1:7---King James Version
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

Anyone who claims the righteousness of Christ is applied to one unto obtaining eternal life--independent of one's own works--is sideways with the Biblical witness. That includes Christians:

2 Corinthians 5:10---King James Version
10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

That's LDS theology. Every scripture there. Anathema to the theology pushed by the critics here.

 

[Richard7]

Hey Ralf,

It is “self righteousness,” not the righteousness of God. How may times, LOL even here, do we see someone do something or say something and we think…”what a self righteous you know what.” LOL…ever though of me that way? Our self righteousness for the very most part is a prideful and hypocritical by nature. A trying to get a one up on others righteousness. While Gods righteousness, is a perfect righteousness, without the motives our self righteousness demands. Is one based on pure Agape Love…only God has.

This is the Rightness that the Bible speaks of and why believers are clothed in His righteousness in that again, it is perfect and settles the demand of appeasement that God requires. God looks at a believer as a Jude’s would look at someone on trial, and declares a believer “not guilty” because He sees us through and in the Righteousness of Christ. Many of the words used in the NT are judicial words, and when we are set apart as Christian…we are “declared righteous.”

Of course not, did you not notice the ..... it reads as stated, "Acting in obedience to God’s commands.... Righteousness
Do for your clarification and and complete confusion, it reads that Obedience to God is righteousness...

Set apart as Christians? that is righteousness? chuckle. Can you please, please tell me your definition of setting apart...

What does righteousness mean LDS?
Righteousness is a composite of all that is good. It embraces the principles of heavenly power and law by which all things of God are handled and controlled and governed. In righteousness there is great simplicity. In every case that confronts us in life there is either a right way or a wrong way to proceed.

https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org ›

 

[brotherofJared]

...and why you do it:
Moroni 7:
6 For behold, God hath said a man being evil cannot do that which is good; for if he offereth a gift, or prayeth unto God, except he shall do it with real intent it profiteth him nothing. 7 For behold, it is not counted unto him for righteousness. 8 For behold, if a man being evil giveth a gift, he doeth it grudgingly; wherefore it is counted unto him the same as if he had retained the gift; wherefore he is counted evil before God

good men do it with real intent regardless of what church they belong to. In fact, it's more genuine when they don't belong to any church.

Please explain further.

I think the hint I gave is good enough.

I'm not the one saying the light comes from within

I didn't say you were. Why make moot points? Isn't that pointless?

You're very much saying man has free will

No. I'm not.

I'm saying a man is enticed by one side or the other.

That doesn't eliminate free agency. There is really no such thing as free will. Men may claim it exists. Some even believe they have free will, but they don't. No one has free will, not even God.

Fair enough. I would add that I believe God places us in the circumstance we're in to condition us, so that his will is ultimately accomplished.

That's cool, but it only works if we exercise our free agency appropriately.

God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge.

I don't know why you think this is an argument

 

[Aaron32]

good men do it with real intent regardless of what church they belong to. In fact, it's more genuine when they don't belong to any church.

I think the hint I gave is good enough.

I didn't say you were. Why make moot points? Isn't that pointless?

No. I'm not.

That doesn't eliminate free agency. There is really no such thing as free will. Men may claim it exists. Some even believe they have free will, but they don't. No one has free will, not even God.

That's cool, but it only works if we exercise our free agency appropriately.

I don't know why you think this is an argument

Yeah, ok, whatever.

 

[Richard7]

I have no idea what you believe, but I can tell you LDS doctrine demands personal salvation, not to be confused with general salvation, must be individually earn by , as the 3rd AoF reads, by obedience to the laws and ordinance of the gospel.

Not true, there is no Doctrine that we teach on personal salvation... knock your self out trying to prove that speculation... chuckle.

 

[brotherofJared]

Not true, there is no Doctrine that we teach on personal salvation... knock your self out trying to prove that speculation... chuckle.

What @Markk means by "Personal Salvation" is that we believe that we actually have to receive Christ before we can be saved. They think Christ has to receive us and then there's nothing we can do to be unsaved. You can even be completely wrong, like Heiser, and still be saved. You just can't be Mormon and wrong and be saved. It's like one big joke.

 

[Markk]

Not true, there is no Doctrine that we teach on personal salvation... knock your self out trying to prove that speculation... chuckle.

It is called exaltation, general salvation is giving freely to all me by the atonement, and they will receive the resurrection of life according to LDS theology, but exaltation, or eternal life must be earned by merit and when archived…you will be a God!!!

KINDS OF SALVATION SALVATION: CONDITIONAL AND UNCONDITIONAL. Christ's sacrifice and death did two things for us: it brought unto us unconditional salvation and conditional salvation. Sometimes we refer to these as general salvation and individual salvation. I am going to read what Orson Pratt said in relation to this. It is one of the clearest statements I know about. It is very concise and well thought out. "The universal redemption of the posterity of Adam from the fall will be fully accomplished after the earth has been filled with its measure of inhabitants, and all men have been redeemed from the grave to immortality, and the earth itself has been changed and made entirely new." Christ's mission is not finished until that time comes. "But universal redemption from the effects of original sin, has nothing to do with redemption from our personal sins; for the original sin of Adam and the personal sins of his children, are two different things. The first was committed by man in his immortal state; the second was committed by man in a mortal state; the former was committed in a state of ignorance of good and evil; the latter was committed by man, having a knowledge of both good and evil.... "The children of Adam had no agency in the transgression of their first parents, and therefore, they are not required to exercise any agency in their redemption from its penalty. They are redeemed from it without faith, repentance, baptism, or any other act, either of the mind or body."

I suppose you thing you know more than a past prophet,I would not put that past you, but no matter how you try to spin it…for the LDS salvation is two fold.

“Each of us has been sent to earth by our Heavenly Father to merit eternal life” – Robert D. Hales, “Personal Revelation: The Teachings and Examples of the Prophets”, October 2007 General Conference

Is Hales wrong here…focus and you a HP quorum leader know more than this Apostle of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Please explain his error?

 

[Markk]

What @Markk means by "Personal Salvation" is that we believe that we actually have to receive Christ before we can be saved. They think Christ has to receive us and then there's nothing we can do to be unsaved. You can even be completely wrong, like Heiser, and still be saved. You just can't be Mormon and wrong and be saved. It's like one big joke.

No I don’t, personal salvation is by pure merit, as taught by the church GA…unless you as a member that does not even have a TR, can trump the GA.

Why is the apostle in the post above wrong?

 

[brotherofJared]

It is called exaltation,

No. It's not. It's called salvation.

general salvation is giving freely to all me by the atonement

Which is not salvation. It is a type of salvation, but it is not the church's definition of salvation and exaltation isn't the church's definition either. Exaltation is different. Salvation is being saved in the kingdom of God, Exaltation is continuing the work of God. Two separate things, both in the Celestial kingdom.

but exaltation, or eternal life must be earned by merit and when archived…you will be a God!!!

Nope. That is salvation. Everyone saved in the kingdom of God will be gods, regardless of their marital status. see sec 76.

KINDS OF SALVATION SALVATION: CONDITIONAL AND UNCONDITIONAL. Christ's sacrifice and death did two things for us: it brought unto us unconditional salvation and conditional salvation. Sometimes we refer to these as general salvation and individual salvation. I am going to read what Orson Pratt said in relation to this. It is one of the clearest statements I know about. It is very concise and well thought out. "The universal redemption of the posterity of Adam from the fall will be fully accomplished after the earth has been filled with its measure of inhabitants, and all men have been redeemed from the grave to immortality, and the earth itself has been changed and made entirely new." Christ's mission is not finished until that time comes. "But universal redemption from the effects of original sin, has nothing to do with redemption from our personal sins; for the original sin of Adam and the personal sins of his children, are two different things. The first was committed by man in his immortal state; the second was committed by man in a mortal state; the former was committed in a state of ignorance of good and evil; the latter was committed by man, having a knowledge of both good and evil.... "The children of Adam had no agency in the transgression of their first parents, and therefore, they are not required to exercise any agency in their redemption from its penalty. They are redeemed from it without faith, repentance, baptism, or any other act, either of the mind or body."

Not one word in there about exaltation.

I suppose you thing you know more than a past prophet

it certainly seems that you think you do.

for the LDS salvation is two fold.

It is. Exaltation aside. It has nothing to do with those two forms of salvation.

“Each of us has been sent to earth by our Heavenly Father to merit eternal life” – Robert D. Hales, “Personal Revelation: The Teachings and Examples of the Prophets”, October 2007 General Conference

Yep. This does nothing to support your argument.

Is Hales wrong here…focus and you a HP quorum leader know more than this Apostle of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

He's right. It has nothing to do with your claim. Not a single word in here about exaltation. This is all salvation and anyone who obtains a celestial glory will do so because they earned it by following Christ, reconciling themselves to God.

Please explain his error?

It's been explained, did you get it?

 

[brotherofJared]

No I don’t, personal salvation is by pure merit

Whatever that means, "pure merit" is a concept that I'm not familiar with. I don't think anyone in the church is familiar with it either. However, those who receive Christ will obtain salvation. It's not much, but it is something and for that, they will inherit the Celestial world, God's kingdom. Is receiving Christ, you're idea of "pure merit"?

I would like to add that my explanation was for @Richard7 in terms a member of the church would understand. I didn't expect that you would get it. You must remember that I don't think you know what you're talking about when it comes to our doctrine, so; naturally, I would explain what you meant, in our vernacular.

Why is the apostle in the post above wrong?

He's not wrong. You are.

 

[Richard7]

It is called exaltation, general salvation is giving freely to all me by the atonement, and they will receive the resurrection of life according to LDS theology, but exaltation, or eternal life must be earned by merit and when archived…you will be a God!!!

Chuckle, Exaltation is a place not Salvation... Exaltation is living with God, Salvation is following the Plan of Happiness or Plan of Salvation so we can be Exalted. Merit has noting to do with Living with God, merit is being worthy of Exaltation...

KINDS OF SALVATION SALVATION: CONDITIONAL AND UNCONDITIONAL. Christ's sacrifice and death did two things for us: it brought unto us unconditional salvation and conditional salvation. Sometimes we refer to these as general salvation and individual salvation. I am going to read what Orson Pratt said in relation to this. It is one of the clearest statements I know about. It is very concise and well thought out. "The universal redemption of the posterity of Adam from the fall will be fully accomplished after the earth has been filled with its measure of inhabitants, and all men have been redeemed from the grave to immortality, and the earth itself has been changed and made entirely new." Christ's mission is not finished until that time comes. "But universal redemption from the effects of original sin, has nothing to do with redemption from our personal sins; for the original sin of Adam and the personal sins of his children, are two different things. The first was committed by man in his immortal state; the second was committed by man in a mortal state; the former was committed in a state of ignorance of good and evil; the latter was committed by man, having a knowledge of both good and evil.... "The children of Adam had no agency in the transgression of their first parents, and therefore, they are not required to exercise any agency in their redemption from its penalty. They are redeemed from it without faith, repentance, baptism, or any other act, either of the mind or body."

I suppose you thing you know more than a past prophet,I would not put that past you, but no matter how you try to spin it…for the LDS salvation is two fold.

“Each of us has been sent to earth by our Heavenly Father to merit eternal life” – Robert D. Hales, “Personal Revelation: The Teachings and Examples of the Prophets”, October 2007 General Conference

Merit (worthiness) in the sense of, being judged and rewarded according to our faith and our personal obedience... that is not a spin. Methinks you are mistaking merit with earned.

If we prove faithful to the Lord, we will live in the highest degree of the celestial kingdom of heaven. We will become exalted, to live with our Heavenly Father in eternal families. Exaltation is the greatest gift that Heavenly Father can give His children ... D&C 14:7

Is Hales wrong here…focus and you a HP quorum leader know more than this Apostle of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints?

Please explain his error?

Absolutely not there is no error and I'm not a HP quorum leader.... President of the Elder Quorum is my calling.
The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).
2. They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).
3. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:36; italics in original).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, “All things are theirs” (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

1. They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76:62).
2. They will become gods (see D&C 132:20–23).
3. They will be united eternally with their righteous family members and will be able to have eternal increase.
4. They will receive a fulness of joy.
5. They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have—all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge (see D&C 132:19–20). President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: “The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to His commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them” (Doctrines of Salvation, comp. Bruce R. McConkie, 3 vols. [1954–56], 2:36; italics in original).

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