Question on Psalms 82

[dberrie2020]

Don't forget that LDS think the atonement made everyone free of Adam's sin

How does that differ from the Biblical witness?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.


OK--so the LDS and the Biblical witness connects--and the critic's theology is left out in the cold.

(IOW, they can't be children of wrath and are pure until they commit a sin after age 8).???

Which correlates with the Biblical witness:

Galatians 4:1-2---King James Version
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

IMO--anyone who condemns little babies is in the gall of bitterness.

 

[Richard7]

??? are we talking about the same thing?

I know what I was talking about, not sure you're on the same page as usual...

 

[Richard7]

HUH???

Deflection good buddy, hate to have to do a video for you, maybe that's the way you best learn, not sure why you have do a Huh?
You have changed a lot in these last 17 yrs. What happened to you?

 

[Markk]

Deflection good buddy, hate to have to do a video for you, maybe that's the way you best learn, not sure why you have do a Huh?
You have changed a lot in these last 17 yrs. What happened to you?

Go back and read what you wrote? It does not make any sense…but anyways…please give me a video with a narrative of what you assertions are, I promise I will respond.

 

[Richard7]

Go back and read what you wrote? It does not make any sense…but anyways…please give me a video with a narrative of what you assertions are, I promise I will respond.

I can't help you good buddy... it is what it is and at least I understood exactly what the debate was about... more deflection...

 

[Markk]

I can't help you good buddy... it is what it is and at least I understood exactly what the debate was about... more deflection...

Ralf..LOL…come on guy, you said you were going to have to do a video for me in that is the only way I can learn…please do Ralf.

 

[Richard7]

Ralf..LOL…come on guy, you said you were going to have to do a video for me in that is the only way I can learn…please do Ralf.

Do I have to spell out the word "sarcasm"... I take it you're a literalist... Markk when are you ever going to get serious and bring us some real evidence. Deberrie, brotherofjared and I have all given you plenty to think on and sources to go to....quit with the deflection and produce some witnesses.

 

[dberrie2020]

Don't forget that LDS think the atonement made everyone free of Adam's sin

How does that differ from the Biblical witness?

Romans 5:18---King James Version
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

OK--so the LDS and the Biblical witness connects--and the critic's theology is left out in the cold.

(IOW, they can't be children of wrath and are pure until they commit a sin after age 8).???

Which correlates with the Biblical witness:

Galatians 4:1-2---King James Version
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;
2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.
IMO--anyone who condemns little babies is in the gall of bitterness.

Bump for Janice--or anyone

 

[Markk]

Do I have to spell out the word "sarcasm"... I take it you're a literalist... Markk when are you ever going to get serious and bring us some real evidence. Deberrie, brotherofjared and I have all given you plenty to think on and sources to go to....quit with the deflection and produce some witnesses.

I have been doing this for along time, and since I have been here I have taught you, dberrie, and BoJ core LDS doctrines. Your positions have changed and your understanding of LDS doctrine have grown…and you have accepted things that you used to deny when I first met you here.

What have you given me to think about? Give me just a few of these things?

 

[dberrie2020]

I have been doing this for along time, and since I have been here I have taught you, dberrie, and BoJ core LDS doctrines. Your positions have changed and your understanding of LDS doctrine have grown…and you have accepted things that you used to deny when I first met you here.

What have you given me to think about? Give me just a few of these things?

What a load of hooey.

 

[Markk]

What a load of hooey.

LOL...Yes, but true hooey. In the years you have been here I can guarantee your understanding of Mormonism has changed, deeply. It is certainly not only me, but all the others here show you and the other's truths about Mormon history and doctrines that you would never get from attending church...and as is clearly seen here the members here do not study LDS doctrine and history on their own. Your inability to only listen and absorb these truths, and not being able to defend against them with LDS teachings, is a true example of how "anti- Mormonism" is the "movement that has changed the way the church "does business."

Granted it is a slow process, but I can see it slowly sinking in and assimilating into the few LDS board members here and other boards I frequent... and the older boards that no longer exist or I was banned from.

There was a time when members used to argue King James only and basically all other versions were kind of "evil." However, you often use all the different translations, even if only to find English words that might fit the context you are trying to force into your out of context thought (yes, I notice it).

Also, things like Joseph Simith having sex with his multiple wives...when I first started out on boards, LDS members used to deny he even had other wives, in that we were not taught that in church. Then it was argued they were only sealed to Joseph, and they were not married, today it is conceded that he even had sex with some of these wives.

I have clearly taught the two types of salvations here, universal, and personal, it is a slowly sinking in. At any rate, my hooey and you diverting away from it insures me it is sinking in, even if slowly...like the teachings that make you a God.

Here's a challenge for you...start reading and studying this book, link below...it is one of those lifetime books, that you will never really finish, but it is a must for any serious Mormon, that wants to get about as accurate view of the early history of the church, that is possible in one book. I have a very old copy that was my grandfathers, and it is very expense to buy if you can find one...but it now available online to read for free. It is by Andrew Jenson, google him and you will find out he is a valued LDS historian, and this is not anti-literature. He is faithful to his faith in his overview while being faithful in trying to portray an honest history.

The historical record : Andrew Jenson : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

Book digitized by Google from the library of the University of Michigan and uploaded to the Internet Archive by user tpb.

archive.org

The Historical Record

books.google.com

 

[dberrie2020]

LOL...Yes, but true hooey.

Some of the points you push here is hooey in it's truest sense. IMO--you seem like someone who is suffering from a guilt complex, in a tortured way.

 

[Richard7]

I have been doing this for along time, and since I have been here I have taught you, dberrie, and BoJ core LDS doctrines. Your positions have changed and your understanding of LDS doctrine have grown…and you have accepted things that you used to deny when I first met you here.

What have you given me to think about? Give me just a few of these things?

Nope, I know there never will be gay marriages, will not have women in the Priesthood and you still can not convince me of works or merit to be saved.... so good buddy, what has changed, oops he says, I dun know....

 

[Richard7]

LOL...Yes, but true hooey. In the years you have been here I can guarantee your understanding of Mormonism has changed, deeply. It is certainly not only me, but all the others here show you and the other's truths about Mormon history and doctrines that you would never get from attending church...and as is clearly seen here the members here do not study LDS doctrine and history on their own. Your inability to only listen and absorb these truths, and not being able to defend against them with LDS teachings, is a true example of how "anti- Mormonism" is the "movement that has changed the way the church "does business."

Deeply, in your dreams Markk, you give yourself to much credit or self patting your self on the back... nobody knows everything when they going, I"m still learning, but nothing from you buddy.

Granted it is a slow process, but I can see it slowly sinking in and assimilating into the few LDS board members here and other boards I frequent... and the older boards that no longer exist or I was banned from.

For example the CES letter if you really cared have been debated and refuted, you should take the time to look at and study the other side Markk. That would make for a great new topic.

Also, things like Joseph Simith having sex with his multiple wives...when I first started out on boards, LDS members used to deny he even had other wives, in that we were not taught that in church. Then it was argued they were only sealed to Joseph, and they were not married, today it is conceded that he even had sex with some of these wives.

No we were not taught that in Church and there is still a lot we don't know, you seem to think all that is to be known is out there and is solid rock information... that is a chuckle good buddy.

I have clearly taught the two types of salvations here, universal, and personal, it is a slowly sinking in. At any rate, my hooey and you diverting away from it insures me it is sinking in, even if slowly...like the teachings that make you a God.

That is such a farce, I have known this since I was in my twenties, nothing new have you offered as a new teaching, you're full of yourself.

Here's a challenge for you...start reading and studying this book, link below...it is one of those lifetime books, that you will never really finish, but it is a must for any serious Mormon, that wants to get about as accurate view of the early history of the church, that is possible in one book. I have a very old copy that was my grandfathers, and it is very expense to buy if you can find one...but it now available online to read for free. It is by Andrew Jenson, google him and you will find out he is a valued LDS historian, and this is not anti-literature. He is faithful to his faith in his overview while being faithful in trying to portray an honest history.

Could be he to often sought a higher calling! Not knocking him as a great historian, but the below gives me a hint of someone who sought the callings instead of meekly waiting for the Lord to call him...

Andrew Jenson​

Zealous Chronologist​

Keith W. Perkins​

However, although his work on Church Chronology may have helped gain him the office of Assistant Church Historian, two years later it seemed to stand in the way of further recognition. Many of the presiding officers in the wards and stakes urged the Saints to purchase the book with the disconcerting result that in some instances Jenson was criticized because he “pushed too hard” for the sale of the work. [19]

Events at this time seemed to turn against Andrew. At the October 1900 conference he was not sustained as Assistant Church Historian. He was also informed that the new Historian’s Office would probably not be built for some time. All that he had worked for during the last several years now seemed to be fading away. He became more and more depressed at the situation. What would he do? Where could he go? If the Brethren would not recognize him in the position he felt he deserved, he would take his problems to the Lord. On 11 August 1901, Andrew took a “lonely” walk into the mountains behind Ensign Peak. There he stopped and engaged in secret prayer and meditations for some time. He recorded the manifestation that came to him following his heartfelt prayer:

My Son, be of good cheer, thy prayers are heard and shall be answered upon thy head with the blessing thou so earnestly desire. The Lord has not rejected thee, but he has permitted thee to pass through trials and affliction in order to try thy faith and thy integrity. . . . Thou has not lost thy position in the Church as a Historian; thy zeal and integrity in that capacity is known to God and is pleasing in his sight; and it is God who has inspired thee to do the work which thou has done. But thou hast been too ambitious and has cared too much for the opinion of men; and this is the main cause of thy present disappointment. [20]

Lifted by this revelation, he made his way home “fully determined to take a new stand” and obey the words that had been given to him. He continued his work and started new projects. It appears, though, that he began to contemplate leaving the Church Historian’s Office, for he started making plans to organize the Andrew Jenson History Company. [21] In the April 1902 conference, however, he was again sustained as Assistant Church Historian.

Nevertheless, his troubles were not over. Andrew Jenson had watched three fellow Church Historians move to greater prominence in the Church: Charles W. Penrose to the First Presidency, Orson F. Whitney to the Quorum of the Twelve, and Brigham H. Roberts to the First Council of Seventy. Had his time finally arrived? Were the years of frustration at seeing others appointed to higher position in the Church, while he remained behind, finally coming to an end? He had been disappointed before, but he knew that these past experiences had been for his good and that they helped develop his will power and stability of character, “as I have so far been able to bear up under it.” He realized he would be rewarded for his diligent efforts some time:

If I am not rewarded for my integrity before God and my energy in the interest of God’s work on the earth in this life I have great faith in that which in the life to come will come to them that persevere and remain steadfast and faithful to the end. And by the help of the Almighty I shall indeavor [sic] to act as becometh an Elder of Israel and servant of God the remainder of my life. [22]

 

[Richard7]

Andrew Jenson​

Zealous Chronologist​

Keith W. Perkins​

But now, at last, it appeared he might receive some of his reward in this life. With the death of President Anthon H. Lund there was a vacancy in the presiding councils of the Church and in the office of Church Historian. In addition, previous to his being selected as a member of the First Presidency, President Lund had been the “Scandinavian Apostle.” Once more Jenson began to construct “air castles” only to have them shattered to the ground.

While doing research in the St. Louis Public Library, he read in the Deseret News that the new Apostle selected was a Scandinavian, but a Norwegian, not a Dane—John A. Widtsoe—and that the new Church Historian was Joseph Fielding Smith, Jenson’s former assistant. This bitter pill was almost impossible for Jenson to swallow. In the privacy of his journal he revealed his innermost feelings and emotions over this experience:

Why have I been sidetracked so repeatedly? Why this slight in the face of my known ability and activity in the historical field? . . . Way back in 1884 when my name was canvassed in connection with filling a vacancy in the First Council of Seventy, and I was sidetracked, the late Erastus Snow told me not to feel bad about it for the Lord had a better position reserved for me. I now query, as I have often done before, if I have done anything wrong whereby the Lord should be displeased with me, or why with my increased ability and diligence I should lose out instead of gaining with my brethren in the Priesthood. Yet, here I am, sidetracked once more, after a life-long struggle, during which I have given my best to Church work and have reserved nothing so far as I understand myself for selfish motives. Is it wrong in the sight of the Lord for a man to expect reward or recognizance for real merit. Is there no such thing as appreciation when a man puts his whole soul into a work which is aimed at doing good and to benefit the cause of God and mankind generally? I left the library in a solemn mood. [23]

Unfortunately Andrew had not yet learned the lesson that Anthon H. Lund had tried to teach him nine years before. He had similar feelings then which had resulted in his going to his good friend President Lund and confiding in him his concerns. President Lund had told him “he must not harbor such feelings. He was honored in the Church and it is not position but works that will count.” [24] Nor had he taken seriously the counsel of Apostle George Albert Smith: “Some wondered why Andrew Jenson was not promoted to a position among the Twelve or chief quorum of Seventies; but where there were hundreds of men in the Church who could be chosen for Apostles there were only a few indeed who could fill the position that I held or do the work I did.” [25] But still he continued to brood. “I am driving no stakes, laying no plans and having no expectations, so I look for no disappointments.” [26]

Jenson need not have worried that his work did not receive the recognition he thought it should. It was during the later years of his life that he received his greatest acclaim. President Grant personally told him how pleased he was with his work. [27] The Church periodical the Improvement Era was also laudatory, “No man has done more—if any has done so much—in the cause of abundant and correct data for the Church records.” [28] In addition, editors of many newspapers outside Utah lauded the “Mormon historian.” Andrew Jenson probably did as much to spread goodwill among non-Mormons as any other person in the Church. Typical of their response is the following:

Professor Jenson has devoted his life to the study of Mormon history, and in his exhaustive research work through a period of more than forty years has come to be regarded as one of the foremost living authorities on that era of mid-century expansion that preceded and coincided with the Civil War period. Although he has devoted himself assiduously to the perpetuation of the vivid history of his particular faith, his work has gained him wide recognition beyond church circles. [29]

 

[Markk]

Some of the points you push here is hooey in it's truest sense. IMO--you seem like someone who is suffering from a guilt complex, in a tortured way.

Then respond to them...again in all the years you have been here, you never reply or respond, with LDS teachings, that I can recall. You can try to counter my showing how the church teaches and instills a God complex in their membership, with saying I personally have a guilt complex. I have clearly and will continue to show how what I write here is a teaching that you can become a God...so in return, please do explain and show how I have a guilt complex in a tortured way? I can show you scripture and GA teachings about how it feeds a God complex...please do show me your "evidence" (LOL I sound like you) for my guilt complex? What exactly am I guilty of.

DB... even if I did have a guilt complex, which I don't, that would some kind of deep mental issue. The God complex teachings, I talk about is scripturally taught by the church.

And... what puts both the God plex and "guilt" complex into perspective is this video.... if you really believe I have guilt for rejecting this nonsense...please do explain how, and equally, if you choose...I can walk you thought this video on how it lends to a God complex, and you can show me how it lends to by guilt?

 

[Markk]

Nope, I know there never will be gay marriages, will not have women in the Priesthood and you still can not convince me of works or merit to be saved.... so good buddy, what has changed, oops he says, I dun know....

Ralf...did Joseph Smith have sex with any of his wives? Remember when you use to tell me that there was no evidence of that because he never had a child? And even recently you backed off of Bushman...remember you did not realize he was employed by the church...and you had to stop bagging on him?

And you need to focus...you may never fully understand LDS theology...of the folks here I believe you are last to understand...but to be clear there are two salvations, Universal and Personal. The former, per the 2nd AoF, is given to all men freely. The latter is based on merit and duty as per the 3rd AoF. I'll leave you with this...

“Each of us has been sent to earth by our Heavenly Father to merit eternal life” – Robert D. Hales, “Personal Revelation: The Teachings and Examples of the Prophets”, October 2007 General Conference

Was elder Hales mistaken here as a prophet, seer, and revelator? Do you, an elder's quorum president have better insight than an LDS prophet?

 

[Markk]

Deeply, in your dreams Markk, you give yourself to much credit or self patting your self on the back... nobody knows everything when they going, I"m still learning, but nothing from you buddy.

Well...you know that is just not true. I am not patting myself on the back, I am pointing out just how deceptive the church is...many folks here have shown you and others how the church has hidden deep doctrine and history form the folks.

 

[Markk]

For example the CES letter if you really cared have been debated and refuted, you should take the time to look at and study the other side Markk. That would make for a great new topic.

Let's open up the letter you and I... we can start from the beginning and work through it to the end...line upon line...and see what has been refuted and what stands?

Yes, it would, please do start the topic and start at the beginning of the letter and lets, again work through it. You have obviously never really read it, or you would not have said that...you looked at the few things Jeremy got wrong and assumed the whole letter was false...so again...please, let's go through it.

I'll get you started...please start your thread.

https://cesletter.org/CES-Letter.pdf

 

[Markk]

That is such a farce, I have known this since I was in my twenties, nothing new have you offered as a new teaching, you're full of yourself.

So why are you always back tracking and changing your stories? Again, you used to deny Joseph had sex with some of his other wives. But we can get through much of this when you start the thread on the CES letter...starting from the beginning.