On Obstinacy in Belief

Caroljeen said:
I edited some of what I wrote in the post you are responding to.

It did include doing away with the law. They butted heads and worked in out in Acts 15.

If you really want to get into more about the law passing away because of what Jesus did on the cross, you should read the book of Hebrews. It discusses the two covenants (the old and new testaments) and how the new testament is better. How the OT was like a type or a shadow leading us to Christ.
You can read more about it in the book of Romans and a more condensed version in the book of Galatians. It is scattered all throughout the NT. You are echoing thepixie who has it completely wrong. Who knows where he found that silly argument. It shows that he doesn't know what he is talking about, imo.
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So Pix doesn't know what he's talking about because he doesn't agree with you? Why should Hebrews or anything from Paul carry more weight than what was allegedly spoken by Christ himself?
If what Jesus said about the law being finished was so clear how is it the apostles felt that following the law was still important?
 
Lucian said:
What do you think it means? How do you tell?
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I think "fulfill" means to complete a prophecy, because that is what the dictionary tells me the word means.

It is Jesus saying he has come to complete the prophecies in two books, the Law and the Prophets, i.e., the OT.
 
Caroljeen said:
Jesus fullfilled the requirements of the law by the sacrifice of sin by himself once and for all. All was accomplished by Christ on the cross.
Do you need the other scriptural references that go along with this one?
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What does it mean that he "fullfilled the requirements of the law"? Do you mean he kept the laws perfectly? Why does one person keeping the law perfectly mean that murder is now okay? Oh, wait. Do not murder was not affected by Jesus fulfilling the law, only laws Christians want to get rid off. Why does one person keeping the law perfectly mean that eating shrimp is now okay when previously it was an abomination?

When you say "All was accomplished by Christ on the cross" why did the world go on, for the most part without even noticing? Why are there still demons tempting people to evil, if all has been accomplished? What exactly changed when everything was accomplished?
 
The Pixie said:
I think "fulfill" means to complete a prophecy, because that is what the dictionary tells me the word means.

It is Jesus saying he has come to complete the prophecies in two books, the Law and the Prophets, i.e., the OT.
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What does it mean to complete a prophecy?
 
The Pixie said:
Sometimes I wonder if you are deliberately being obtuse. Today is one of those days.
dictionary.cambridge.org

fulfil

1. to do something that is expected, hoped for, or promised, or to cause it to…
dictionary.cambridge.org dictionary.cambridge.org
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Insulting me isn't an answer, and I didn't ask for the dictionary definition of 'fulfil'.

Rather, I asked what you thought Jesus meant in Matthew 5:17 when he said that he had not come to destroy, but to fulfil. You told me that you think 'fulfil' here means 'complete a prophecy', but the meaning of that locution is unclear: what is it to complete a prophecy?
 
Lucian said:
Insulting me isn't an answer, and I didn't ask for the dictionary definition of 'fulfil'.

Rather, I asked what you thought Jesus meant in Matthew 5:17 when he said that he had not come to destroy, but to fulfil. You told me that you think 'fulfil' here means 'complete a prophecy', but the meaning of that locution is unclear: what is it to complete a prophecy?
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I told you what I think Jesus meant. If you want further clarification, I invite you to explain the supposed ambiguity in my reply. Until you do, I shall continue to think you are being deliberately obtuse.
 
Tiburon said:
So Pix doesn't know what he's talking about because he doesn't agree with you? Why should Hebrews or anything from Paul carry more weight than what was allegedly spoken by Christ himself?
If what Jesus said about the law being finished was so clear how is it the apostles felt that following the law was still important?
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He doesn't know the Bible. He only knows his talking points. It is obvious to me simply by his questions and by talking to him, Just like your comment about who's words are more weighty does not make sense if you believe that all scripture is inspired by God.

Consider this verse from Hebrews 8:13---- In speaking of a new covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear.

The old covenant, the law of Moses, was made obsolete because of the new covenant. To really understand it you should read about it. I find arguing about it useless with those who don't know the Bible because they seem unable to be swayed from their talking point in which they are trying to poke holes at something they think is a serious contradiction, when we know it is not.

Tradition. If anyone is keeping the law of Moses it is because it is a tradition but it won't save them and they know that. The Christians you should ask this question to are Messianic Jews. They are current day Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ.
 
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Eightcrackers said:
The Law of Moses included the Ten Commandments.

Yet Christians seem to think that those still apply.
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Have you read the 10 commandments in Exodus 20? No one keeps the Sabbath. The other commandments address morality and God. They remain constant in both covenants.
 
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Caroljeen said:
He doesn't know the Bible. He only knows his talking points. It is obvious to me simply by his questions and by talking to him, Just like your comment about who's words are more weighty does not make sense if you believe that all scripture is inspired by God.

Consider this verse from Hebrews 8:13---- In speaking of a new covenant, he has made the first one obsolete, and what is obsolete and growing old will soon disappear.

The old covenant, the law of Moses, was made obsolete because of the new covenant. To really understand it you should read about it. I find arguing about it useless with those who don't know the Bible because they seem unable to be swayed from their talking point in which they are trying to poke holes at something they think is a serious contradiction, when we know it is not.

Tradition. If anyone is keeping the law of Moses it is because it is a tradition but it won't save them and they know that. The Christians you should ask this question to are Messianic Jews. They are current day Jews who believe that Jesus is the Messiah/Christ.
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And yet no Christian can tell me what "fulfil" means.
 
Eightcrackers said:
Where did Jesus say this?
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Why are you asking that question? Jesus instructed us to love God and people.

Matthew 22: 34 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, 35 and one of them, an expert in the law, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”

Paul sums it up this way in Romans 13: 8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
 
The Pixie said:
I told you what I think Jesus meant. If you want further clarification, I invite you to explain the supposed ambiguity in my reply.
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You told me that you think 'fulfil' here means 'complete a prophecy', but the meaning of that locution is unclear: what is it to complete a prophecy?

It's not as though this is a common turn of phrase, so you can forgive me for asking. And if it isn't ambiguous, it should be easy for you to explain, no?
 
Caroljeen said:
Why are you asking that question? Jesus instructed us to love God and people.
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I want to know why Christians interpret this to mean

"Keep the first Ten, but dump the rest"
Caroljeen said:
Matthew 22: 34 When the Pharisees heard that he had silenced the Sadducees, they gathered together, 35 and one of them, an expert in the law, asked him a question to test him. 36 “Teacher, which commandment in the law is the greatest?” 37 He said to him, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the greatest and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.”
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Then in what sense do the Ten Commandments still apply?
 
Lucian said:
You told me that you think 'fulfil' here means 'complete a prophecy', but the meaning of that locution is unclear: what is it to complete a prophecy?

It's not as though this is a common turn of phrase, so you can forgive me for asking. And if it isn't ambiguous, it should be easy for you to explain, no?
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I give up. I am simply not up to the task of dumbing it down enough, so I have started a thread and invited others to try to explain it.

- What does "fulfil a prophecy" mean?

This is not about whether we think it happened, just about what the words mean. I ask, because I am struggling to explain it to another poster. I said Jesus claimed he was fulfilling prophecies, and he seems unable to understand what that means. To be, it is simple English, and I cannot get my...
forums.carm.org
 
Eightcrackers said:
I want to know why Christians interpret this to mean

"Keep the first Ten, but dump the rest"

Then in what sense do the Ten Commandments still apply?
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In the sense that if you love others you will not steal from them, you will not murder them, you will not covet what they have. etc. If you love God you will not make idols and worship them.

I'm sorry if I seem frustrated with your questions. What seems obvious to me does not to you. I apologize to you and pixie.
 
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The Pixie said:
I give up. I am simply not up to the task of dumbing it down enough, so I have started a thread and invited others to try to explain it.

- What does "fulfil a prophecy" mean?

This is not about whether we think it happened, just about what the words mean. I ask, because I am struggling to explain it to another poster. I said Jesus claimed he was fulfilling prophecies, and he seems unable to understand what that means. To be, it is simple English, and I cannot get my...
forums.carm.org
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Pixie, what do you think the word, "fulfilled" means in this verse:

Paul sums it up this way in Romans 13: 8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.
 
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