Going to Hell in a nutshell

I think it is actually advisable to compare the stories of miracles of other allegedly supernatural figures with Jesus of Nazareth. The gospel of John tells us that Jesus wept. Did the Emperor Vespasian? Did Heracles? The gospels have a human element lacking in counterfeit mythologies. Remember Jesus' cry over Jerusalem? How out of character it would be for Muhammad to cry, "O Mecca, Mecca. How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing." Can you imagine any other religious hero of any other culture turning his cheek when spat upon?

No, we are dealing with a qualitatively different personage when we consider Jesus of Nazareth. If other cultures were trying to copy Christianity or vice-versa, they sure did a lousy job of it, Other cultures left out the primary feature for their protagonist, HUMILITY.

Christianity never even attempted to "define itself." God Almighty Himself showed believers what it was all about by revealing the character of His Son.
The above may be a very strong and heartfelt assertion, but I think you have a inaccurate view of what mythology is if you think it lacks a human element. Mythology IS the human element reflected in fable. And there could be no statement further from the truth of a matter than ....
Christianity never even attempted to "define itself."
It still struggles to do so to this day as is witnessed in the theology forums here. I think it would be wrong headed to think the first 5 centuries of Christian authority was some clear revelation of God absent the characters you find even here trying to define it now.
 
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We are not saying no to your god's offer.
We are saying no to your claims that he has made the offer, or is making the offer.

We don't think he's real - do you get that?
You can't spit in the face of somebdy you don't think is real.
I get it.
I am genuinely amused that you guys spend so much time on a Christian apologetic site and come up with weak excuses like you did here.

What I wrote is exactly what Christianity is about and I never tried to convert anyone.
So why the hostility?
Live your life as you please.
At least you will have no excuse if what I shared is real truth.
 
I get it.
I am genuinely amused that you guys spend so much time on a Christian apologetic site and come up with weak excuses like you did here.
If you think that not being convinced that Jesus is real, is not sufficient reason for not repenting, I don't know what to say to you.
What I wrote is exactly what Christianity is about and I never tried to convert anyone.
So why the hostility?
Live your life as you please.
At least you will have no excuse if what I shared is real truth.
I will have an excuse - your god did not do what he knew would convince me that he was real, and that I needed saving.

Whether or not he accepts this excuse, is irrelevant to whether or not it was justified.
 
It still struggles to do so to this day as is witnessed in the theology forums here.

You declare that Christianity struggles to "define itself." You base this on the multitude of varying doctrines. I attribute the multitude of varying doctrines to man's limited capacity to take in the whole of the many splendored Truth of things. We are too dimensionally limited.

I'm not sure if you ever had courses in Mechanical Drawing (or Engineering Graphics as we called it at Georgia Tech). But if you have, you'll remember how when depicting a physical object on paper you would draw it from three different angles. You were depicting a three dimensional object on a two dimensional piece of paper, rotating it 90 degrees, twice to get three different depictions.

Now picture if you will a silo which is perfectly cylindrical in stature with a perfectly round floor and roof. Imagine you are an architect and on your table you have drawn the three aspects of an external view of the silo, two views from the side and one from the top. Your six year old daughter walks into your office and declares, "Look Daddy, they're teaching us about different shapes at school. You drew two rectangles and a circle."

She would be correct. If you told her that they are all pictures of the same thing and she said, "Don't be silly, Daddy, they can't be both a circle and a rectangle," you would smile and explain. And you COULD explain it satisfactorily to her by rotating an object before her, since she possesses eyes to see. But I think Truth is too multifaceted for us to take it all in with our limited capacity. We try to "define" it to use your word and thus freeze it into fewer dimensions than it requires to be properly fathomed.

The depiction of the silo as a circle does not contradict its depiction as a rectangle. On the contrary it enhances what little richness a silo has. Truth is infinitely rich, I do believe. If only we had eyes to see.
 
Unjustified. Stop trying to blame "God" for your failure to believe what has been clearly shared with you.
You remain without excuse.

If you think that not being convinced that Jesus is real, is not sufficient reason for not repenting, I don't know what to say to you.

I will have an excuse - your god did not do what he knew would convince me that he was real, and that I needed saving.

Whether or not he accepts this excuse, is irrelevant to whether or not it was justified.
 
Unjustified. Stop trying to blame "God" for your failure to believe what has been clearly shared with you.
If your god blames me for not believing what I can't believe - without doing what he knows will convince me - he doesn't deserve my worship.
 
You declare that Christianity struggles to "define itself." You base this on the multitude of varying doctrines. I attribute the multitude of varying doctrines to man's limited capacity to take in the whole of the many splendored Truth of things. We are too dimensionally limited.

I'm not sure if you ever had courses in Mechanical Drawing (or Engineering Graphics as we called it at Georgia Tech). But if you have, you'll remember how when depicting a physical object on paper you would draw it from three different angles. You were depicting a three dimensional object on a two dimensional piece of paper, rotating it 90 degrees, twice to get three different depictions.

Now picture if you will a silo which is perfectly cylindrical in stature with a perfectly round floor and roof. Imagine you are an architect and on your table you have drawn the three aspects of an external view of the silo, two views from the side and one from the top. Your six year old daughter walks into your office and declares, "Look Daddy, they're teaching us about different shapes at school. You drew two rectangles and a circle."

She would be correct. If you told her that they are all pictures of the same thing and she said, "Don't be silly, Daddy, they can't be both a circle and a rectangle," you would smile and explain. And you COULD explain it satisfactorily to her by rotating an object before her, since she possesses eyes to see. But I think Truth is too multifaceted for us to take it all in with our limited capacity. We try to "define" it to use your word and thus freeze it into fewer dimensions than it requires to be properly fathomed.

The depiction of the silo as a circle does not contradict its depiction as a rectangle. On the contrary it enhances what little richness a silo has. Truth is infinitely rich, I do believe. If only we had eyes to see.
But Christian apologetics does not present itself in such an ambiguous manner. It presents itself as a Plinko board with simple yes/no, true/not true assertions with grave consequences if the chip falls left or right incorrectly. It starts with the chip itself. Are we pure or corrupt by nature at birth? Then comes baptism or Anabaptist. Dunk, pour, or sprinkle once that is answered, grace vs. works, forgiveness or remission of sin, the select or all, Jesus existing as god from the beginning, his birth, the transfiguration, or anointed as such at resurrection and ascension..... and a myriad of other very simply applied gates to the tune of tens of thousands of denominational non-compatible concepts that make it clear we don't know Jesus very well - even though some may claim he dwells intimately within them. The doctrinal issues started right in Acts and it all ends with a conundrum we've talked about recently.... Heaven or hell at death and whether hell is annihilation, Universalism, or eternal conscious suffering, and whether there is an actual free will in heaven without human nature pulling at you which might just redefine the nature of free will for us mortals as well.

So what IS the word of God? It would actually be very nice if the more zealous manifestations of Christianity were to present in the manner you outlined and we can claim at the gates of St. Peter - "hey, I tried to figure it out - tip the drawing at many angles - I saw a rectangle and a circle and went with it". Thing is, that graciousness would apply to the sincere questions and limited observations of atheists as well.
 
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I like what C.S.Lewis would have to say about that sort of thing in terms of it manifesting God, "the great storyteller, revealing Himself through different mythologies throughout history." Hercules never existed. Jesus did. Here's a little reading material on the subject:

I like what was written about C.S Lewis -It sounds similar to what 5wize is protesting about.


"Art Lindsley has observed that one of the obstacles for C.S. Lewis coming to faith was the similarity between Christian and pagan mythology. Since pagan myths were assumed to be false, he wondered why Christianity should be treated differently. Later, after a discussion with J.R.R. Tokien, Lewis came to understand that that Jesus was the “myth become fact.”1 In his book Miracles, Lewis defined myth as, “at its best, a real though unfocused gleam of divine truth falling on human imagination.”2 The following is an excerpt from an essay by Lewis, first published in 1944, titled “Myth Became Fact”"

https://www.cslewisinstitute.org/resources/reflections-july-2022/
 
We can open up a new thread later. Go ahead and get the book. I'll reread it myself.
I ordered the book.
I do not believe the Bible to be a revelation from God but is instead a romantic record of a culture's spiritual experience, not a historical one. Big difference #1. Here's where we need to approach each other respectfully and with care.
Agreed. I believe the Bible is inspired by God and historical. I don't see us coming together on this subject.
As far as what I think Christianity ended up becoming... the OT for me is primarily a nationalistic Hebrew document mythologizing why we struggle against this earth, an apologetic for the Jews inhabiting a land via genocide and then a struggle to maintain that land, and in that struggle introducing promises by God for His providence on them above all other nations, prophecies explaining their woes in not being able to maintain that providence, potential ways to correct themselves to regain God's providence, and not being able to successfully do so... culminating in prophecies for a messianic future and a coming kingdom where it all would be set right.
There were continuous prophecies about a messiah from Moses, King David's time, then the prophets (especially Isaiah) and eventually the promised Messiah came but not up to their nationalistic expectation. Roman rule was not expelled by Jesus.

Israel's struggle was their constant disobedience to God. They kept going after idols and the god's of the nations that surrounded them.
The NT is the story of a man that thought he was that strictly Jewish messiah (I have come only for the lost sheep of Israel), the failure of that specific nationalistic Hebrew Messianic message, and the eventual rewriting of his purpose by the end of the first century when the kingdom that Jesus promised did not come before the generation that stood before him would pass.
You see failure and I see victory. Why is that?
Please show me what you think is "the eventual rewriting of his purpose"? What was Jesus' initial purpose and what did it change into?
FYI, Eschatology is not something that I've spent much time studying. As for Jesus not coming back before that generation passed away, doesn't bother me. You'll have to explain why it should bother me, if you don't mind.
I trust the more critical biblical scholarships (both secular and Judeo-Christian) that outline the cultural influences that would form such a book, its likely authors, and its set of cultural beliefs as found in the Bible. We've been discussing them in the scholarship we've been commenting on thus far.
For me to "trust" these scholars I would have to know their personal beliefs and how they approach the Biblical text. I like learning about the culture and surrounding cultures that would influence them.
To say it's "revisiting" history is to assume that the Bible itself is the only history to be considered and not any extra biblical influences on why such a book exists at all, or how it came to be, in a culture. Again, that's because I don't see it as a revelation of God, but of culture. Here's where we need to tread respectfully towards each other.
In what way would you think that the US history and it's written laws and documents differ or are similar to that of the nation of Israel? You're an an American, correct?
Why would you consider US history to be history and not a "romantic record of a culture's spiritual experience"?
 
O.K. But why don't you think that (specifically the strains made by the authors to attach the prophecies to Jesus - not whether he did any miracles, as those were recorded for a different reason altogether - that being to point to the divine legitimacy of Jesus)?
The prophecies point to Jesus being the Messiah, the Son of God. That, imo, is the main point of seeing fulfillment of those OT prophecies in Jesus. I think you are exaggerating that the authors were straining to attach prophecies to him.

John 5:39 “You search the scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life, and it is they that testify on my behalf. 40 Yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
 
If your god blames me for not believing what I can't believe - without doing what he knows will convince me - he doesn't deserve my worship.
So someone who violates your will and choice to believe whatever you want in order for you to be placated is someone you will worship... Whatever...
 
So someone who violates your will and choice to believe whatever you want in order for you to be placated is someone you will worship... Whatever...
Being convinced of somebody's existence does not constitute a violation of free will.

Have you ever been introduced to another person?
That introduction "forced" you to believe that the other party existed - was your free will violated?

Of course not.
Think before you type.
 
But Christian apologetics does not present itself in such an ambiguous manner. It presents itself as a Plinko board with simple yes/no, true/not true assertions with grave consequences if the chip falls left or right incorrectly.

Why concern yourself with how "Christian apologetics" presents itself?

It starts with the chip itself. Are we pure or corrupt by nature at birth? Then comes baptism or Anabaptist. Dunk, pour, or sprinkle once that is answered,

Who cares? We're not given instructions in scripture as to whether baptism should be performed with dunking. pouring or sprinkling. I doubt God, Who looks at the heart of the baptismal candidate, gives a damn. Why should you?

grace vs. works,

Finish it. ....... in order for what? Grace results in different effects than works.

forgiveness or remission of sin,

Again, finish it. ......... in order for what? They don't mean the same thing.

the select or all,

All. At this point, you're only decrying differences in belief. Both are grounded in a belief that Christ saves from sin. If Bob were to tell you that Fred did you a good deed while you were sick and laid up in bed, by mowing all the grass at another house you owned, and then Ralph comes along and tells you that Bob is incorrect, that Fred only cut your front yard, leaving the back unmowed, would you throw up your hands and say, "You guys are contradicting one another. So I doubt that Fred did anything."

Jesus existing as god from the beginning, his birth, the transfiguration, or anointed as such at resurrection and ascension..... and a myriad of other very simply applied gates to the tune of tens of thousands of denominational non-compatible concepts that make it clear we don't know Jesus very well

Exactly. We don't. In fact the more I learn of Him, the more I realize that I hardly know Him at all.

- even though some may claim he dwells intimately within them.

Perhaps in some His presence is recognized and in some it is not. It was several years after I first believed in Him that I began to feel His presence strong enough to state (to those whom I believed would not mock) that He dwelt within me.

The doctrinal issues started right in Acts and it all ends with a conundrum we've talked about recently.... Heaven or hell at death and whether hell is annihilation, Universalism, or eternal conscious suffering, and whether there is an actual free will in heaven without human nature pulling at you which might just redefine the nature of free will for us mortals as well.

Before I believed that ultimately Christ would save all of mankind. I believed in everlasting hell, and was deeply troubled by that belief. I did not come to my universalist viewpoint in order to rid myself of the philosophical consternation, but rather because I learned more of the Truth. A grade school student studying the Civil War may believe that the sole cause of the war was slavery. When he gets to high school and learns that there were also economic reasons such as imposed tariffs, that hardly means that Civil War historians were contradicting one another.
 
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Before I believed that ultimately Christ would save all of mankind.
How is Jesus Christ going to save me?

Is He going to forcibly change my mind into believing that He is worthy of my devotion
or
is He going to save me despite my belief that He is unworthy of my devotion?
 
How is Jesus Christ going to save me?

I can't see into your future. We all have different conversion experiences.

Is He going to forcibly change my mind into believing that He is worthy of my devotion

How can one be forced to believe that which he doesn't believe? Are you asking if He will brainwash you? No. My guess is that He will continue to shine His Light on you, until you stop cowering to avoid it.

is He going to save me despite my belief that He is unworthy of my devotion?

He sees through all of your fake bravado. He probably sees you for the weak little man you are, crying out for attention. I doubt there is any human being who is impressed by your shallow and laughable "I'll never bow MY knee" empty boasts, much less God Almighty.
 
My guess is that He will continue to shine His Light on you, until you stop cowering to avoid it.
If God shining His light on me is to, at some point, illuminate me - the question is begged:

Why doesn't He shine it brightly enough that I, right now, recognize Him?

Why allow me to suffer, in this lifetime, His absence?
Why allow me, after this life, to suffer in Hell for any period of time?

Don't you get it, stiggy?

THIS is a conscious and purposeful infliction of needless harm!


It is your contention that Jesus will eventually win me over

That He chooses not to do so immediately IS a conscious and purposeful infliction of needless harm
Just like a parent who decides to wait 5 minutes before lifting the baby off of the fire ant mound
 
If God shining His light on me is to, at some point, illuminate me - the question is begged:

Why doesn't He shine it brightly enough that I, right now, recognize Him?

He does. You do.

Why allow me to suffer, in this lifetime, His absence?

So you are suffering His absence?

Why allow me, after this life, to suffer in Hell for any period of time?

It'd be good for you.

Don't you get it, stiggy?

Get what?

THIS is a conscious and purposeful infliction of needless harm!

What is? Be specific.

It is your contention that Jesus will eventually win me over

Come hell or high water. In your case, probably the former.

.........conscious and purposeful infliction of needless harm


Just like a parent who decides to wait 5 minutes before lifting the baby off of the fire ant mound

"Weave me awone, Mommy. I wanna pway wif da ants."
 
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