verse please.....
An interesting deconstruction of the Catholics' claim that Mary is analogous to the Ark of the Covenant.
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When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in front of them all, "You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?" (Gal. 2:14)
You are welcome.
where does it say one must be circumcised to be a follower of Christ and be saved?
where is the holy spirit in the verse?
The Bible says the opposite. Paul had Timothy circumcised in accordance with the principle that he outlines in 1 Cor. 9:20:
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.
Paul said, gal6: 15 Circumcision means nothing, the want of it means nothing; when a man is in Christ Jesus, there has been a new creation.
surely Paul and peter are guided by the holy spirit when teaching on matters of faith and morals but not in their wrong behavior.
Woah! Undermining the integrity and the authority of the Scriptures, are we? I happen to believe that every syllable of the Scriptures is inspired by the Holy Spirit. You do well to heed the instruction given by your "father" Augustine in his letter to Jerome:
But you will say it is better to believe that the Apostle Paul wrote what was not true, than to believe that the Apostle Peter did what was not right. On this principle, we must say (which far be it from us to say), that it is better to believe that the gospel history is false, than to believe that Christ was denied by Peter; and better to charge the book of Kings [second book of Samuel] with false statements, than believe that so great a prophet, and one so signally chosen by the Lord God as David was, committed adultery in lusting after and taking away the wife of another, and committed such detestable homicide in procuring the death of her husband. Better far that I should read with certainty and persuasion of its truth the Holy Scripture, placed on the highest (even the heavenly) pinnacle of authority, and should, without questioning the trustworthiness of its statements, learn from it that men have been either commended, or corrected, or condemned, than that, through fear of believing that by men, who, though of most praiseworthy excellence, were no more than men, actions deserving rebuke might sometimes be done, I should admit suspicions affecting the trustworthiness of the whole oracles of God.
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When your behavior affects your teaching, your actions speak as loudly as your words. Peter stood condemned for acting contrary to the Gospel. He apparently learned his lesson (Acts 15) and subsequently defended the Gospel against the legalists. Deal with it.
i do not think paul meant that there are two gospels, one for the jews and one for the gentiles.
it was just one gospel, salvation by the grace of God. Mosaic laws are no longer a part of it.
paul meant to adapt oneself to whoever one is evangelizing, one must approach them in their own styles.
the inspiration of the holy spirit is on matters of faith and morals. it is not about sinlessness.
this is what augustine is saying, as humans we are subject to our weaknesses and can commit sin. but sinful men can be the instrument of God when guided by the Holy spirit.
yes, peter did not defend his wrong behavior.
Bonnie
Super Member
Praying to angels is just as bad as praying to dead saints. Angels aren't God. So this "dual reference to God" is immaterial. It is still a prayer to a creature and not to God almighty. Instead of praying to angels to defend us "by the power of God" why not just pray to GOD and ask HIM to defend us????
Now, let's tweak this prayer a bit:
"Lord Jesus Christ, defend us in battle. Be our protection against the wickedness and snares of the devil; May You rebuke him, we humbly pray; And do thou, O King of the Heavenly Host, by your mighty power, thrust into hell Satan and all evil spirits who wander through the world for the ruin of souls. Amen."
So, is this prayer worship of Jesus Christ--or not, my Catholic friends?
Jesus is KING of the angels, since He created them! They are creatures! Hebrews says all of this about angels:
Jesus Christ: Infinitely Superior to Angels
Angels were created for Christ's everlasting glory and for our everlasting joy.
www.desiringgod.org
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Bonnie
Super Member
True. But since he was supposedly the first pope, should the rest of the church gone along with him in his hypocrisy, obeying and copying him without question, as Catholics are supposed to do with their popes, as Catherine of Siena stated?
Bonnie
Super Member
This is biblical.
This is not.
But there are plenty of Marian prayers out there--like the prayers to "Our Lady of Perpetual Help" that are anything BUT intercessory! They plead for her for help, comfort, and even for salvation! Mary can't save us; ONLY faith in Jesus Christ CAN.
I am talking about the inspiration of the Scriptures. What Paul wrote ("he stood condemned" etc.) was true because the Spirit moved him to write those words.
Exactly. Which is why he circumcised Timothy so that they could evangelize to the Jews together.
Bonnie
Super Member
And you are treating this absence as consent. Do I need to give your the pedophilia example again?
This is immaterial to our discussion and is just a diversionary tactic. Now, show us where God said it was hunky-dory to pray to anyone but HIM. Show us an example of this in the Bible, of any believer praying to anyone except God, in both the OT and NT. Instead, Paul tells us to "make known your requests to GOD." NOT to some saint dead in the Lord but to GOD.
Now, look at what our Lord Himself says in Luke 18--
Jesus talks about crying out to GOD day and night--not to some saint dead in the Lord--for help and justice.
These have nothing to do with praying or worship and you know it. Again, just a diversionary tactic.
Nothing to do with religion or worshiping or praying to anyone but God.
Please remember that even though a direct prohibition may not exist in the bible about something, that doesn't automatically mean permission. As I have stated before, the Bible isn't a theological dictionary or encyclopedia. It DEMONSTRATES what should or should not be done, without always giving a directive for or against it.
No. I don't speak Spanish. But I was referring to the link to that Marian prayer, not the church in Mexico that we visited. Here is that Marian prayer YET AGAIN:
DO note especially the bolded parts. Nothing intercessory about this prayer at ALL. Instead, it asks of Mary things only God can do and give! The part I find especially heinous is where this guy calls Mary the "sure pledge of my eternal salvation" when Paul says that the HS is given to us as a pledge of our salvation. So, right here in this prayer we have a lie. The prayer also calls Mary the "refuge and hope" of sinners, rendering Jesus as so much chopped liver.
But the central figure over the main altar in this church is MARY. NOT Jesus but MARY. A statue of Jesus is off to one side. Angel statues on either side of the altar point to Mary--NOT JESUS. I discussed it here and I agree with what this poster wrote in post no. 173:
Can You Pray to Whoever You Want to?
What it comes down to is that being your interpretation of Revelation but as I've shown before, the early Fathers, those involved in translating and collating the canon of the NT, believed otherwise. “Teach us to pray” “pray like this” “pray without ceasing” “we constantly pray for you” Does...
forums.carm.org
MARY.
Shameful.
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Bonnie
Super Member
Now, Catholics will say that the prayer to Our Lady of Perpetual Help isn't worship of Mary, just pleading for her intercession, though I see nothing intercessory in it. But I am going to tweak it and make it a prayer to God:
Okay, Catholics, is this prayer worship of God or not?
Okay, Catholics, is this prayer worship of God or not?
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Bonnie
Super Member
And of course, the Gentiles knew that Peter was one of the original 12 disciples of Jesus and had known and worked with Him for over 3 years, and seen Him after His resurrection. So, naturally, they would believe that he had authority and obey Peter when he told them they must live like Jews.
LifeIn
Well-known member
The claim I made was a negative. There is no prohibition against praying to the saints in heaven. When the claim is a negative ('there is no X') the burden is on the other side to disprove 'there is no X' by finding an X. In this case, X is a prohibition against praying to the dead. Perhaps you are equating my claim with the much stronger claim, namely, that there is explicit permission to pray for the dead. If I had made that claim (which is a positive statement) I would indeed be required to back it up. But I have not made that claim.
No, the Scripture condemns the spiritualism practices of the pagan nations near by, which are described in detail in Scripture. But none of those descriptions match Catholic prayers to the saints.
And just when I think my words cannot be misrepresented any more, here we go. I didn't say Jesus Christ is dead. I said that he has died. That is part of every Christian's creed. You should know that. I also said he rose from the dead. Did you forget that I said that too?
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