Salvation and Obedience: Can you have one without the other?

[rossh]

Please keep the posts about the posts and not the posters. Obey the CARM forum's rules and terms of use and stay on-topic. If you do not do so then I will report the violating posts.

Go back to Post #28. You said it was "rubbish." Prove it. Prove it keeping the posts about the posts and not the posters.

Yes I just went back to post number 28 and saw nothing illegal there jus rantings of the usual cutlish satanic worshippers that frequent religious type websites
? Well that is par for the course here, so what IS new ?
BTW, did you know, that the USA IS the Official Home of Cultish style churches ( not the only Nation ) and leaders in Antichrist worshippers , one wonders ?
God Bless you and Amen!

 

[rossh]

It's not in there. You were endeavoring to refute Post #28 and quoted a passage that does not mention obedience at all.

I never appealed to that passage. You did that.


No go back to Post #28 and address what is actually posted there.

I did not author/ post that Scripture, go see the author of that particular post and or comment. It is NOT my Post!
Yes I have done that also, gone back to post No. 28, that is nothing has changed !!!

 

[rossh]

I often wonder if this prophecy relates to spiritual Israel—us in other words.

well as for me, NOT being Hebrew/Jewish/Yiddish or what ever else they call themselves, I can not offer any comments on or about that topic.. Sp speak for yourself only on that issue.

 

[rossh]

Please keep the posts about the posts and not the posters. Obey the CARM forum's rules and terms of use and stay on-topic. If you do not do so then I will report the violating posts.

Go back to Post #28. You said it was "rubbish." Prove it. Prove it keeping the posts about the posts and not the posters.

well, in the real world, rubbish is just that, rubbish.

 

[rossh]

Please keep the posts about the posts and not the posters. Obey the CARM forum's rules and terms of use and stay on-topic. If you do not do so then I will report the violating posts.

Go back to Post #28. You said it was "rubbish." Prove it. Prove it keeping the posts about the posts and not the posters.

my opinions are allowed, as are you opinions, so, on that note what is you major malfunction ? The post that is being referred to is rubbish, a lie, not true.

 

[Grace_Accepted]

A person can be saved and disobey God. A person can obey God in word or deed and not be saved.

Yes. We are saved by grace through faith FOR works. Works are the purpose of our salvation, so obedience is necessary to that end.

If this is a reference to passages like Luke 6, then do you recognize the hyperbole Jesus is using? Good trees do in fact bear both good and bad fruit and there are many reasons why good and bad fruit can and are produced by the same tree in reality. I have fruit trees. Every year every tree produces fruit well worth eating but they all also produce some fruit that has imperfections, rot, or bugs where most do not. Some years the otherwise "good" tree will drop its fruit early because of poor care on my part or fault in the environment. They next year they may produce delightful fruit.

No this is not a reference to Luke 6. It is in reference to Matthew 12:34-37

 

[rossh]

No this is not a reference to Luke 6. It is in reference to Matthew 12:34-37

Regardless of that THIS is what it warns us all about.

36 Moreover, I tell you this: on the Day of Judgment people will have to give account for every careless word they have spoken;
37 for by your own words you will be acquitted, and by your own words you will be condemned."

not my words but form God above....

 

[rossh]

No this is not a reference to Luke 6. It is in reference to Matthew 12:34-37

I found this on the Internet, NB; it is NOT my words/work, but I do like it and it is true!
Jesus Christ's mission and teachings were misunderstood by most of those who saw and heard Him.

Jesus performed miracles and signs. He healed the sick, raised the dead, quelled storms of nature, fed the multitudes and exercised absolute authority over the spirit world—yet He wasn't accepted as Israel's Messiah.

One might think that with those credentials, He would be automatically proclaimed Messiah. We are told, however, that "He came to His own [people], and His own did not receive Him"
esus Christ's mission and teachings were misunderstood by most of those who saw and heard Him.

Jesus performed miracles and signs. He healed the sick, raised the dead, quelled storms of nature, fed the multitudes and exercised absolute authority over the spirit world—yet He wasn't accepted as Israel's Messiah.

One might think that with those credentials, He would be automatically proclaimed Messiah. We are told, however, that "He came to His own [people], and His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11). After a 3 1⁄ 2-year ministry, only 120 followers were there for the miraculous beginning of His Church (Acts 1:15).

One of the prophecies about the Messiah foretold that He would be "despised and rejected by men" (Isaiah 53:3). The great works Jesus did that brought about His popularity in the country were not enough to overcome the disfavor He incurred from the religious authorities—or enough to secure loyalty from the fickle hearts of the common man.

His mission and His teachings were at cross purposes to those who held high positions in the nation, and His purpose was also misunderstood by most of those who saw and heard Him.
esus Christ's mission and teachings were misunderstood by most of those who saw and heard Him.

Jesus performed miracles and signs. He healed the sick, raised the dead, quelled storms of nature, fed the multitudes and exercised absolute authority over the spirit world—yet He wasn't accepted as Israel's Messiah.

One might think that with those credentials, He would be automatically proclaimed Messiah. We are told, however, that "He came to His own [people], and His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11). After a 3 1⁄ 2-year ministry, only 120 followers were there for the miraculous beginning of His Church (Acts 1:15).

One of the prophecies about the Messiah foretold that He would be "despised and rejected by men" (Isaiah 53:3). The great works Jesus did that brought about His popularity in the country were not enough to overcome the disfavor He incurred from the religious authorities—or enough to secure loyalty from the fickle hearts of the common man.

His mission and His teachings were at cross purposes to those who held high positions in the nation, and His purpose was also misunderstood by most of those who saw and heard Him.
11). After a 3 1⁄ 2-year ministry, only 120 followers were there for the miraculous beginning of His Church
esus Christ's mission and teachings were misunderstood by most of those who saw and heard Him.

Jesus performed miracles and signs. He healed the sick, raised the dead, quelled storms of nature, fed the multitudes and exercised absolute authority over the spirit world—yet He wasn't accepted as Israel's Messiah.

One might think that with those credentials, He would be automatically proclaimed Messiah. We are told, however, that "He came to His own [people], and His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11). After a 3 1⁄ 2-year ministry, only 120 followers were there for the miraculous beginning of His Church (Acts 1:15).

One of the prophecies about the Messiah foretold that He would be "despised and rejected by men" (Isaiah 53:3). The great works Jesus did that brought about His popularity in the country were not enough to overcome the disfavor He incurred from the religious authorities—or enough to secure loyalty from the fickle hearts of the common man.

His mission and His teachings were at cross purposes to those who held high positions in the nation, and His purpose was also misunderstood by most of those who saw and heard Him.

One of the prophecies about the Messiah foretold that He would be "despised and rejected by men" (
esus Christ's mission and teachings were misunderstood by most of those who saw and heard Him.

Jesus performed miracles and signs. He healed the sick, raised the dead, quelled storms of nature, fed the multitudes and exercised absolute authority over the spirit world—yet He wasn't accepted as Israel's Messiah.

One might think that with those credentials, He would be automatically proclaimed Messiah. We are told, however, that "He came to His own [people], and His own did not receive Him" (John 1:11). After a 3 1⁄ 2-year ministry, only 120 followers were there for the miraculous beginning of His Church (Acts 1:15).

One of the prophecies about the Messiah foretold that He would be "despised and rejected by men" (Isaiah 53:3). The great works Jesus did that brought about His popularity in the country were not enough to overcome the disfavor He incurred from the religious authorities—or enough to secure loyalty from the fickle hearts of the common man.

His mission and His teachings were at cross purposes to those who held high positions in the nation, and His purpose was also misunderstood by most of those who saw and heard Him.
). The great works Jesus did that brought about His popularity in the country were not enough to overcome the disfavor He incurred from the religious authorities—or enough to secure loyalty from the fickle hearts of the common man.

His mission and His teachings were at cross purposes to those who held high positions in the nation, and His purpose was also misunderstood by most of those who saw and heard Him.

 

[Josheb]

nt

 

[Josheb]

Yes I just went back to post number 28 and saw nothing illegal there jus rantings of the usual cutlish satanic worshippers...

Thank you for your time.

 

[Josheb]

No this is not a reference to Luke 6. It is in reference to Matthew 12:34-37

Appreciate the clarification. Let's look at the Matthew text.

Matthew 12:30-37
30He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. 33Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Let me first say this is nearly identical to the Luke 6 text to which I referred, so might consult it to see the similarities and the relevance of what I previously posted. Just saying

As far as the text specified goes, notice Jesus plainly states his audience (the Pharisees) are evil. It's a curious statement given the fact only Pharisees converted as far as we know from the scriptural record. No Sadducee is reported to have ever converted to Christ. Nicodemus, Joseph, Saul were all Pharisees. They did good. They were evil and they eventually did good. Of course, the monergists here will explain that by saying it was God working in those men monergistically that resulted in their conversion.

My point is that there is a certain degree of hyperbole contained in that verse because elsewhere Jesus talks about how the Sads and Phars taught some things correctly in part or whole. For example, the taught obedience to the Law of Moses. That was a good thing. They did not teach the Law well, but they did do good so Jesus words in verse 34 should not be over-generalized to point of creating a false dichotomy. The same holds true with the next few verses. The Pharisees can and did sometimes speak rightly, even though their hearts were sinful. Nicodemus coming to Jesus in John 3 would be an example. The pagan Centurion would be an even better example. Lastly, there is a qualifier in verse 36; that of the "careless" word. This implies there are not-careless words and perhaps there's no accounting or need for accounting of those words. That cannot be viewed contradictory to verses 33-35. All these verses must be read in a manner consistent with each other AND with the rest of all scripture. Noah did good. Abraham did good. So did Moses and many others.


Hebrews 11 tells us the OT people of faith are made complete in us. That would apply to Nic, Joe, and Saul, assuming they (or their ilk ) were present in the Matthew 12 audience.

 

[Grace_Accepted]

Appreciate the clarification. Let's look at the Matthew text.

Matthew 12:30-37
30He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters. 31Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven. 32Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. 33Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

Let me first say this is nearly identical to the Luke 6 text to which I referred, so might consult it to see the similarities and the relevance of what I previously posted. Just saying

As far as the text specified goes, notice Jesus plainly states his audience (the Pharisees) are evil. It's a curious statement given the fact only Pharisees converted as far as we know from the scriptural record. No Sadducee is reported to have ever converted to Christ. Nicodemus, Joseph, Saul were all Pharisees. They did good. They were evil and they eventually did good. Of course, the monergists here will explain that by saying it was God working in those men monergistically that resulted in their conversion.

My point is that there is a certain degree of hyperbole contained in that verse because elsewhere Jesus talks about how the Sads and Phars taught some things correctly in part or whole. For example, the taught obedience to the Law of Moses. That was a good thing. They did not teach the Law well, but they did do good so Jesus words in verse 34 should not be over-generalized to point of creating a false dichotomy. The same holds true with the next few verses. The Pharisees can and did sometimes speak rightly, even though their hearts were sinful. Nicodemus coming to Jesus in John 3 would be an example. The pagan Centurion would be an even better example. Lastly, there is a qualifier in verse 36; that of the "careless" word. This implies there are not-careless words and perhaps there's no accounting or need for accounting of those words. That cannot be viewed contradictory to verses 33-35. All these verses must be read in a manner consistent with each other AND with the rest of all scripture. Noah did good. Abraham did good. So did Moses and many others.


Hebrews 11 tells us the OT people of faith are made complete in us. That would apply to Nic, Joe, and Saul, assuming they (or their ilk ) were present in the Matthew 12 audience.

I simply take it as that which comes out of you is what is in you. “You” being generic.

 

[Merton]

If this is a reference to passages like Luke 6, then do you recognize the hyperbole Jesus is using? Good trees do in fact bear both good and bad fruit and there are many reasons why good and bad fruit can and are produced by the same tree in reality. I have fruit trees. Every year every tree produces fruit well worth eating but they all also produce some fruit that has imperfections, rot, or bugs where most do not. Some years the otherwise "good" tree will drop its fruit early because of poor care on my part or fault in the environment. They next year they may produce delightful fruit.

Hey Josheb, this is a very interesting point. Wouldn't this mean that under the idea of "you judge a tree by its fruit," then a tree that produces good fruit would be accurately judged a good tree because it was capable of good fruit, even if not all the fruit is always good? In other words, does a good tree need to be perfect (never have bad fruit) in order to be judged to be a good tree?

 

[Merton]

Those who are saved will be obedient ones, certainly the disobedient will not inherit the Kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-10)

I agree. Salvation makes you capable of obedience.

Jesus taught that good comes from a good heart and evil from an evil heart. So I have figured that you can't make you heart good by doing good.

Beautifully said.
You cannot create love for yourself. The only way to do a loving deed is to find a love that is already in you and express it.
You find it as a gift from God.

No, it must be good in order to do good, so how does it become good? By being made good and that is Salvation.

I agree wholeheartedly.

It is made good over time but counted good the moment we submit to God's will for our lives.

Yes, absolutely right.

I would only add, as a Catholic, that the reason God counts you as good is for the same reason - because He has made you into a good tree.
God has made you as a "new creation," and everything that God creates is good. (Even if, as another poster pointed out, you, as a good tree, do not produce good fruit perfectly every time - still, I believe, God quite accurately judges you to be a good tree).

 

[rossh]

Thank you for your time.

Welcome and may God Bless you.

 

[rossh]

nt

Oh, the New Testament wow! Got it.. BTW which part ? or All of the NT ?

 

[Grace_Accepted]

I agree. Salvation makes you capable of obedience.

Beautifully said.
You cannot create love for yourself. The only way to do a loving deed is to find a love that is already in you and express it.
You find it as a gift from God.

I agree wholeheartedly.

Yes, absolutely right.

I would only add, as a Catholic, that the reason God counts you as good is for the same reason - because He has made you into a good tree.
God has made you as a "new creation," and everything that God creates is good. (Even if, as another poster pointed out, you, as a good tree, do not produce good fruit perfectly every time - still, I believe, God quite accurately judges you to be a good tree).

I love the fellowship of like believers under Christ regardless of denomination or congregation. Godspeed.

 

[Grace_Accepted]

Hey Josheb, this is a very interesting point. Wouldn't this mean that under the idea of "you judge a tree by its fruit," then a tree that produces good fruit would be accurately judged a good tree because it was capable of good fruit, even if not all the fruit is always good? In other words, does a good tree need to be perfect (never have bad fruit) in order to be judged to be a good tree?

Does not good tree produce good fruit. Any bad fruit on such a tree must certainly have had external damage such as insects, fungus, drought etc. But these are not produced by the tree. These happen to the good fruit the tree produces. If the fruit were poison then even the insects would avoid it.

 

[rossh]

Does not good tree produce good fruit. Any bad fruit on such a tree must certainly have had external damage such as insects, fungus, drought etc. But these are not produced by the tree. These happen to the good fruit the tree produces. If the fruit were poison then even the insects would avoid it.

Great example, and yes, insect spray saves the day as does our Bibles and Preachers help save us all from the pitfalls and snares of the great Liar. He wants us to be separated from God as He will be/is for ever. However He and His followers have the " silver tongue of doom ", BTW His followers are usually those who do not believe Scripture and or are just bad.
God Bless you!

 

[Grace_Accepted]

Great example, and yes, insect spray saves the day as does our Bibles and Preachers help save us all from the pitfalls and snares of the great Liar. He wants us to be separated from God as He will be/is for ever. However He and His followers have the " silver tongue of doom ", BTW His followers are usually those who do not believe Scripture and or are just bad.
God Bless you!

Not just preachers save us from pitfalls, but people like you do to. God speaks through us to each other. You have insights that I don't and I might have some that you don't. Together we learn in humbleness before God.