LDS prophet on Seer Stone in the Hat

[Markk]

Markk: "According to Ralf, the LDS church and the general authorities, have no common sense."

Really Markk, that is the only way you could possibly written that, completely not my words and completely out of context.
Again, you should apologize for fabricating a false message.

LOL no, go back and read what you wrote...

" common sense would tell everyone that a solid rock is not capable of giving a written translation even why trying to compare it to a Iphone, etc"...

The church teaches that the "solid rock" was capable of giving a written translation. So please tell me how I am wrong. If you want to say you got sloppy and write something you should not have, fine, but don't put this on me...you said it.

 

[Markk]

You're doing great Markk, all these latter day witnesses who can't claim to have been there. Nice try, but there still are many accounts and especially Cowdery and JS were the best of any of the witnesses.

I am just showing you what the church teaches. Which according to you carries no common sense.

You are a outlier, on your way out.

 

[Magdalena]

My Point Magdalena was that the progressives and revisionist made claims that JS did not need to use the plates for translation and I just showed the following.... "so that the translation was just as it was engraven on the plates.”

Exactly as it was written in English on the stone. Smith didn’t translate anything himself.

He also had to have a KJV Bible handy to copy Isaiah word for word, including all the idiosynchrosies of that version, which didn’t even exist at the time of the Book of Mormon. And that means he could have had other books to plagiarize from there as well.

 

[Markk]

I believe in the Doctrine, no man has the answers to all things.

You championed and defended the traditional accounts; they were not doctrine. Now that those traditional narratives have been proven false and are being transitioned out...would you teach the new narrative or stick with the old. What if you were teaching out of a PH manual that shares the new narrative...what would you do.

Yes, it teaches it and uses the disclaimer that there are many different accounts, which as we have debated is very true...

It does give a disclaimer at all. They more or less weeded through and agreed the current teaching of a seer stone and the interpreters being used interchangeably is the truth, as well as he is being a "glass looker."

From LDS.org...

"...In Joseph Smith’s day, some individuals claimed that they had a gift to “see,” or receive divine or supernatural messages, through seer stones. These beliefs came from the Bible and from European cultural traditions brought to early America by immigrants. Joseph Smith and his family accepted these beliefs, and Joseph occasionally used stones he located in the ground to help neighbors find missing objects or search for buried treasure.

When Joseph Smith received the golden plates in 1827, he also received a translation instrument with them, “two stones in silver bows” used by “‘seers’ in ancient or former times” (Joseph Smith—History 1:35). This instrument was referred to in the Book of Mormon as the “interpreters.” During the translation of the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith apparently used both of these instruments—the interpreters and his seer stone—interchangeably. They worked in much the same way, and the early Saints sometimes used the term “Urim and Thummim” to refer to the seer stone as well as the interpreters.


Ralf Click Here

 

[Markk]

Well, we still don't know a lot of things Markk, the sealed plates have not been translated, we don't know where the Book of Mormon took place, wish we still had the scrolls of the Book of Abraham, so many issues still need to come to light and they will...

Well, they are coming to light Ralf, which is what you are avoiding. IMO, the issues you are having a hard time adjusting to is that the new light, and teachings by the church don't fit in your testimony.

We knew where the Book of Mormon took place. Joseph Smith walked among the great battle grounds, and even located a grave of great white laminate. I sat through a fireside of the Moundbuilders in northeastern United States. The Hill Camorah was always the scene of the great battle.

The new light came as DNA and changed that...apologist championed a theory that central America was the scene of the BoM...which has been debunked.

The BoM Abraham was debunked by the Rosetta Stone, and the scroll fragments that was discovered. Most likely more people have left the church because of this fact.

You have been given light Ralf, it just does not go in your favor. The new light you have now, is that JS was a Money Digger by profession, he had several seer stones, and used one or more to translate the BoM interchangeably with the interpreters, and they are both referred to as the U&T.

 

[Richard7]

That is not true. They say there are many accounts, which is true, but that the reliable accounts are the Seer stone and the interpreters in the hat. They never posted it as a "disclaimer." The prophet said "we know" in regard to using seer stones and the interpreters.

Not true, you used unreliable accounts, I gave you two, one from JS and one from Oliver Cowdery, neither stated a seer stone, only the Urim and Thummim.... and these are both accounts as it happened...

2. Joseph Smith 1842
Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record by the gift, and power of God. (Joseph Smith, Church History, Times and Seasons 3(March 1, 1842):707)

3. Joseph Smith – as published by Daniel Rupp- 1844
Through the medium of the Urim and Thummim I translated the record, by the gift and power of God. (“Latter Day Saints,” in I. Daniel Rupp, comp., An Original History of the Religious Denominations at Present Existing in the United States (Philadelphia: J.Y. Humphreys, 1844), 406)

Oliver Cowdery – as interviewed by Samuel Whitney Richards- 1907
He (Oliver Cowdery) represents Joseph as sitting by a table with the plates before him. and he reading the record with the Urim & Thummim. Oliver, his scribe, sits close beside to hear and write every word as translated. This is done by holding the translators over the words of the written record, and the translation appears distinctly in the instrument, which had been touched by the finger of God and dedicated and consecrated for the express purpose of translating languages. This instrument now used fully performed its Mission. Every word was made distinctly visible even to every letter, and if Oliver did not in writing spell the word correctly it remained in the translator until it was written correctly. This was a mystery to Oliver, how Joseph being comparatively ignorant could correct him in spelling, without seeing the word written, and he would not be satisfied until he should be permitted or have the gift to translate as well as Joseph. (Samuel W. Richards statement, May 21, 1907, holograph, 2-3, Church Archives)

6. David Whitmer as interviewed by Thomas Wood Smith -1879
I personally heard him state, in Jan. 1876 in his own house in Richmond, Ray Co. Mo…. that he saw Joseph translate, by the aid of the Urim and Thummim, time and again, and he (David) then produced a large pile of foolscap paper closely written in a very fair hand, which he declared was the manuscript written mainly by Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris, as the translation was being read by the aid of the Urim and Thummim of the characters on the plates by Joseph Smith, which work of translation and transcription he frequently saw. (Thomas Wood Smith, Fall River Herald, March 28, 1879; cited in Lyndon W. Cook, ed., David Whitmer Interviews: A Restoration Witness (Orem, Utah: Grandin Book, 1991, 10)

7. David Whitmer as interviewed by Eri B. Mullin -1880
Mr. D. Whitmer told me in the year 1874, that Joseph Smith used the Urim and Thummim when he was translating…

 

[Richard7]

LOL no, go back and read what you wrote...

" common sense would tell everyone that a solid rock is not capable of giving a written translation even why trying to compare it to a Iphone, etc"...

The church teaches that the "solid rock" was capable of giving a written translation. So please tell me how I am wrong. If you want to say you got sloppy and write something you should not have, fine, but don't put this on me...you said it.

Why is your post missing Markk? It's gone good buddy. Why don't your just repeat it again just word for word... chuckle.

 

[Richard7]

Well, they are coming to light Ralf, which is what you are avoiding. IMO, the issues you are having a hard time adjusting to is that the new light, and teachings by the church don't fit in your testimony.

We knew where the Book of Mormon took place. Joseph Smith walked among the great battle grounds, and even located a grave of great white laminate. I sat through a fireside of the Moundbuilders in northeastern United States. The Hill Camorah was always the scene of the great battle.

The new light came as DNA and changed that...apologist championed a theory that central America was the scene of the BoM...which has been debunked.

The BoM Abraham was debunked by the Rosetta Stone, and the scroll fragments that was discovered. Most likely more people have left the church because of this fact.

You have been given light Ralf, it just does not go in your favor. The new light you have now, is that JS was a Money Digger by profession, he had several seer stones, and used one or more to translate the BoM interchangeably with the interpreters, and they are both referred to as the U&T.

I'm glad you have determined where it took place, yet since you don't believe anything Mormon it should not matter since there were no Nephites and Lamanites ... I wonder how JS knew so much about the coast of the Red Sea and Lehi's journey where he is spot on with all the details he translated in the Book of Mormon... oh well, just a lucky guess...
Book of Abraham:
Joseph Smith’s explanations of the facsimiles of the book of Abraham contain additional earmarks of the ancient world. Facsimile 1 and Abraham 1:17 mention the idolatrous god Elkenah. This deity is not mentioned in the Bible, yet modern scholars have identified it as being among the gods worshipped by ancient Mesopotamians.39 Joseph Smith represented the four figures in figure 6 of facsimile 2 as “this earth in its four quarters.” A similar interpretation has been argued by scholars who study identical figures in other ancient Egyptian texts.40 Facsimile 1 contains a crocodile deity swimming in what Joseph Smith called “the firmament over our heads.” This interpretation makes sense in light of scholarship that identifies Egyptian conceptions of heaven with “a heavenly ocean.”41

The book of Abraham is consistent with various details found in nonbiblical stories about Abraham that circulated in the ancient world around the time the papyri were likely created. In the book of Abraham, God teaches Abraham about the sun, the moon, and the stars. “I show these things unto thee before ye go into Egypt,” the Lord says, “that ye may declare all these words.”42 Ancient texts repeatedly refer to Abraham instructing the Egyptians in knowledge of the heavens. For example, Eupolemus, who lived under Egyptian rule in the second century B.C.E., wrote that Abraham taught astronomy and other sciences to the Egyptian priests.43 A third-century papyrus from an Egyptian temple library connects Abraham with an illustration similar to facsimile 1 in the book of Abraham.44 A later Egyptian text, discovered in the 20th century, tells how the Pharaoh tried to sacrifice Abraham, only to be foiled when Abraham was delivered by an angel. Later, according to this text, Abraham taught members of the Pharaoh’s court through astronomy.45 All these details are found in the book of Abraham.

Other details in the book of Abraham are found in ancient traditions located across the Near East. These include Terah, Abraham’s father, being an idolator; a famine striking Abraham’s homeland; Abraham’s familiarity with Egyptian idols; and Abraham’s being younger than 75 years old when he left Haran, as the biblical account states. Some of these extrabiblical elements were available in apocryphal books or biblical commentaries in Joseph Smith’s lifetime, but others were confined to nonbiblical traditions inaccessible or unknown to 19th-century Americans.46

Translation and Historicity of the Book of Abraham

The Book of Abraham is a record of the Biblical prophet Abraham and is accepted by the Church of Jesus Christ as a book of scripture.

www.churchofjesuschrist.org

 

[Richard7]

Well, they are coming to light Ralf, which is what you are avoiding. IMO, the issues you are having a hard time adjusting to is that the new light, and teachings by the church don't fit in your testimony.

Yes, The New Mormonism is coming to light, the old established narrative is being changed as we speak.

Much of what Jesus taught in the Olivet Discourse was to prepare His disciples, both then and now, so they would not be deceived and overcome by evil. President M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, while commenting on these prophecies made by the Savior, cautioned Church members not to accept unauthorized teachings:

“As Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is our duty to be watchmen on the tower, warning Church members to beware of false prophets and false teachers who lie in wait to ensnare and destroy faith and testimony. Today we warn you that there are false prophets and false teachers arising; and if we are not careful, even those who are among the faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will fall victim to their deception.

“President Joseph F. Smith gave wise and clear counsel that applies to us today:

“‘We can accept nothing as authoritative but that which comes directly through the appointed channel, the constituted organizations of the priesthood, which is the channel that God has appointed through which to make known His mind and will to the world. … And the moment that individuals look to any other source, that moment they throw themselves open to the seductive influences of Satan. … Whenever you see a man rise up claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church, independent of the order and channel of the priesthood, you may set him down as an impostor’ (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 42)” (“Beware of False Prophets and False Teachers,” Ensign, Nov. 1999, 62).

The BoM Abraham was debunked by the Rosetta Stone, and the scroll fragments that was discovered. Most likely more people have left the church because of this fact.

Are you speculating or do you have something to say.... Rosetta Stone has debunked the Book of Abraham??? oh my!

You have been given light Ralf, it just does not go in your favor. The new light you have now, is that JS was a Money Digger by profession, he had several seer stones, and used one or more to translate the BoM interchangeably with the interpreters, and they are both referred to as the U&T.

Great, and all those accounts are second and third hand accounts... chuckle. Both JS and Cowdrey stated it was by the use of the Urim and Thummim... the two most involved in translation then anyone else.

 

[Markk]

Yes, The New Mormonism is coming to light, the old established narrative is being changed as we speak.

Much of what Jesus taught in the Olivet Discourse was to prepare His disciples, both then and now, so they would not be deceived and overcome by evil. President M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles, while commenting on these prophecies made by the Savior, cautioned Church members not to accept unauthorized teachings:

“As Apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ, it is our duty to be watchmen on the tower, warning Church members to beware of false prophets and false teachers who lie in wait to ensnare and destroy faith and testimony. Today we warn you that there are false prophets and false teachers arising; and if we are not careful, even those who are among the faithful members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints will fall victim to their deception.

“President Joseph F. Smith gave wise and clear counsel that applies to us today:

“‘We can accept nothing as authoritative but that which comes directly through the appointed channel, the constituted organizations of the priesthood, which is the channel that God has appointed through which to make known His mind and will to the world. … And the moment that individuals look to any other source, that moment they throw themselves open to the seductive influences of Satan. … Whenever you see a man rise up claiming to have received direct revelation from the Lord to the Church, independent of the order and channel of the priesthood, you may set him down as an impostor’ (Gospel Doctrine, 5th ed. [1939], 42)” (“Beware of False Prophets and False Teachers,” Ensign, Nov. 1999, 62).

So, you are saying Nelson is a false prophet? It is his teachings you are taking issue with.

Also, how do you know what you quoted is true and authorized? Why is it when you quote from the ensign it is somehow valid, yet when I quoted from the Ensign Nelson stating Joseph used a rock in his hat, you deny it?

Are there church teachings on LDS . org that are un-authorized?

 

[Markk]

Are you speculating or do you have something to say.... Rosetta Stone has debunked the Book of Abraham??? oh my!

It did, it allowed folks to understand Egyptian, and in turn, show Joseph could not read Egyptian. It is really that simple.

 

[Markk]

Great, and all those accounts are second and third hand accounts... chuckle. Both JS and Cowdrey stated it was by the use of the Urim and Thummim... the two most involved in translation then anyone else.

Unfortunately for you the church disagrees with you. And they teach that the seer stones JS owned, were referred to as Urim and Thummim by the early saints.

You never did answer my question, on a scale of 1-10 how is President Nelson doing as a Prophet, IYO?

 

[Richard7]

Unfortunately for you the church disagrees with you. And they teach that the seer stones JS owned, were referred to as Urim and Thummim by the early saints.

We differ!

You never did answer my question, on a scale of 1-10 how is President Nelson doing as a Prophet, IYO?

I said great!

 

[Richard7]

It did, it allowed folks to understand Egyptian, and in turn, show Joseph could not read Egyptian. It is really that simple.

What egyptian? this was a language nobody had ever talked about, Reformed Egyptian...

So, you are saying Nelson is a false prophet? It is his teachings you are taking issue with.

Unable to accept unauthorized teachings such as Bushman, Eddington, Vogel etc, etc. These are false teachers.

Also, how do you know what you quoted is true and authorized? Why is it when you quote from the ensign it is somehow valid, yet when I quoted from the Ensign Nelson stating Joseph used a rock in his hat, you deny it?

I remeber he stated Urim and Thummim ROCKS in a hat...

Are there church teachings on LDS . org that are un-authorized?

Maybe, I know that correction are allowed and sometimes needed to either clarify or to be more transparent.
How man times has the Bible been corrected and some of the cannon of scriture has been deleted and now prestended as pseudepigraph?

 

[Markk]

What egyptian? this was a language nobody had ever talked about, Reformed Egyptian...

LOL,LoL...huh. We are talking about the BoA and the Rossetta Stone, that in around 1825 was discovered and allowed scholars to start to unravel how to read Egyptian Glyphs.

Just to be clear, are you saying Chandler sold Jospeh artifacts in "Reformed Egyptian?" is that really your opinion?

 

[Richard7]

LOL,LoL...huh. We are talking about the BoA and the Rossetta Stone, that in around 1825 was discovered and allowed scholars to start to unravel how to read Egyptian Glyphs.

Chuckle, here is your claim! You only specifies Egyptian and His inabiltiy to translate it. We could make this a whole new topic good buddy...
Markk said:
It did, it allowed folks to understand Egyptian, and in turn, show Joseph could not read Egyptian. It is really that simple.

Just to be clear, are you saying Chandler sold Jospeh artifacts in "Reformed Egyptian?" is that really your opinion?

Of course not, you were not very clear..

 

[Created]

LOL what does he say after he said suggestions? Right before he picked up the hat? I am at the car wash so can’t listen to it, but if you don’t want to be honest with what he said…I will do so later.

Mormon's can't be honest, their entire mythology depends on the Joseph 'Stone Gazer' Smith being correct, which of course any Bible Believing Christian knows is deception and misguided faith from a false prophet.

 

[Created]

Chuckle, here is your claim! You only specifies Egyptian and His inabiltiy to translate it. We could make this a whole new topic good buddy...
Markk said:
It did, it allowed folks to understand Egyptian, and in turn, show Joseph could not read Egyptian. It is really that simple.



Of course not, you were not very clear..

But the Bible is very clear and does not in any way support Mormonism. You can come to this Christian website until the cows come home, that fact will never change.

 

[Markk]

Chuckle, here is your claim! You only specifies Egyptian and His inabiltiy to translate it. We could make this a whole new topic good buddy...
Markk said:
It did, it allowed folks to understand Egyptian, and in turn, show Joseph could not read Egyptian. It is really that simple.

Are you saying that is not true? Please do make it a topic.

Explore the Rosetta Stone

Get closer to the Rosetta Stone, the key that unlocked the mysterious hieroglyphic script of ancient Egypt.

www.britishmuseum.org

 

[Markk]

Of course not, you were not very clear..

This is what you wrote below. What did you mean by conflating Chandler with Reformed Egyptian?

What Egyptian? this was a language nobody had ever talked about, Reformed Egyptian...