Did Jesus teach TULIP

[Matt Slick]

TOTAL DEPRAVITY - Mark 7:20-23, "And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man." Matt. 7:17, "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit."

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - Matt. 4:19, "And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." 20 And they immediately left the nets and followed Him." John 6:44, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:65, "And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father." Mark 4:10-12, "And as soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven." Matt. 11:27, "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him." John 6:38-40, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

LIMITED ATONEMENT - John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." John 10:26, "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep." Matt. 25:32, "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left."

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE - Matt. 9:9, "And as Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man, called Matthew, sitting in the tax office; and He said to him, 'Follow Me!' And he rose, and followed Him." John 6:37, "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out." John 6:65, "And He was saying, 'For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - John 6:38-40, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day." John 10:27-28, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

 

[Synergy]

Thank you for presenting your set of verses. My intentions are to present verses that counterbalance what you're implying by the verses you forwarded for the purpose of fostering a more Biblical expansive view that results in nullifying the TULIP topic that your verse finds itself under. All of my verses are from the NKJV Bible.

TOTAL DEPRAVITY - Mark 7:20-23, "And He was saying, "That which proceeds out of the man, that is what defiles the man. 21 "For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 "All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man."

(Matt 5:8) "Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God."
(Matt 6:19-21) “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
(Matt 22:37) Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
(Acts 2:37) Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

Matt. 7:17, "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit."

(Rom 2:14-16) for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - Matt. 4:19, "And He said to them, "Follow Me, and I will make you fishers of men." 20 And they immediately left the nets and followed Him."

(Matt 19:21-22) Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
(Acts 7:51) You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
(Matt 13:15) For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’

John 6:44, "No one can come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day."

(John 6:45) It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
(Rom 10:8-13) But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

John 6:65, "And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

(2 Pet 1:10) Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

Mark 4:10-12, "And as soon as He was alone, His followers, along with the twelve, began asking Him about the parables. 11 And He was saying to them, "To you has been given the mystery of the kingdom of God; but those who are outside get everything in parables, 12 in order that while seeing, they may see and not perceive; and while hearing, they may hear and not understand lest they return and be forgiven."

(John 6:70) Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

Matt. 11:27, "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son, except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father, except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him."

(Eph 1:3-6) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
(Eph 2:11-13) Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

John 6:38-40, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

(1 Tim 2:3-4) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(2 Th 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

<continued to next page>

 

[Synergy]

LIMITED ATONEMENT - John 10:11, "I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."

(John 10:16) And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
(John 1:29) The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
(1 Tim 2:5-6) For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

John 10:26, "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep."

(John 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(Acts 2:21) And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Matt. 25:32, "And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left."

(1 John 2:2) And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
(Rom 5:18) Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE - Matt. 9:9, "And as Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man, called Matthew, sitting in the tax office; and He said to him, 'Follow Me!' And he rose, and followed Him."

(Acts 7:51) You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
(Matt 19:21-22) Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

John 6:37, "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

(Heb 6:4-6) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

John 6:65, "And He was saying, 'For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me, unless it has been granted him from the Father."

(2 Pet 1:10) Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS - John 6:38-40, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."

(Heb 6:4-6) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

John 10:27-28, "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

(John 15:6) If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[Matt Slick]

I'm glad you affirm the five points.

 

[Theo1689]

(John 10:16) And other sheep I have which are not of this fold; them also I must bring, and they will hear My voice; and there will be one flock and one shepherd.
(John 1:29) The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!
(1 Tim 2:5-6) For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

(John 3:16) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
(Acts 2:21) And it shall come to pass that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

(1 John 2:2) And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
(Rom 5:18) Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.


(Acts 7:51) You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
(Matt 19:21-22) Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.

(Heb 6:4-6) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

(2 Pet 1:10) Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;


(Heb 6:4-6) For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

(John 15:6) If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.

Well, if you're simply going to quote a bunch of random verses, NONE of which do any damage to the "five points"...

 

[American Gothic]

the Savior is promised to mankind in Genesis 3

Bible Gateway passage: Genesis 3 - New King James Version

The Temptation and Fall of Man - Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?” And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat the fruit of the trees of...

www.biblegateway.com

-
"Adam represented all people.
The phrase “in Adam” is a term of federal headship which designates that he was our representative.
This is why the Bible says that sin entered the world through one man. Furthermore, the Bible tells us that “in Adam all die…”.
Therefore, the...covenant was not just with Adam but is also representative of those who were in him, his descendants.

What is the Edenic Covenant?

The Edenic Covenant is the covenant God made with Adam to take care of the Garden of Eden, subdue the earth, and to not eat from the tree of the knowledge

carm.org

What is the Adamic Covenant?

The Adamic covenant is where Adam was to take care of the garden and refrain from eating the tree the knowledge of good and evil.

carm.org

points.

by L point logic, was the Savior promised only to Israel?

"From this man’s seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus" Acts 13


-

Israel are called sheep in book of Enoch
Enoch prophecy of the Exodus -

"I then looked at them, until they departed from the wolves. The eyes of the wolves were blind, who went out and followed them with all their might. But the Lord of the sheep proceeded with them, and conducted them.
All his sheep followed him.
His countenance was terrific and splendid, and glorious was his aspect. Yet the wolves began to follow the sheep, until they overtook them in a certain lake of water.
Then that lake became divided; the water standing up on both sides before their face.
And while their Lord was conducting them, he placed himself between them and the wolves.
The wolves however perceived not the sheep, but went into the midst of the lake, following them, and running after them into the lake of water.
But when they saw the Lord of the sheep, they turned to fly from before his face.
Then the water of the lake returned, and that suddenly, according to its nature. It became full, and was raised up, until it covered the wolves. And I saw that all of them which had followed the sheep perished, and were drowned.
But the sheep passed over this water, proceeding to a wilderness, which was without both water and grass. And they began to open their eves and to see.
Then I beheld the Lord of the sheep inspecting them, and giving them water and grass."

"And when he had ascended the top of a lofty rock, the Lord of the sheep sent him to them.
Afterwards I perceived their Lord standing before them, with an aspect terrific and severe.
And when they all beheld him, they were frightened at his countenance.
All of them were alarmed, and trembled. They cried out after that sheep; and to the other sheep who had been with him,
and who was in the midst of them, saying, We are not able to stand before our Lord, or to look upon him."

 

[Roger Thornhill]

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION - Matt. 4:19, "And He said ." John 6:38-40, "For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes in Him, may have eternal life; and I Myself will raise him up on the last day."
."

John 6:40 has the subjunctive of έχω (should have). On page 465 footnote 48 in Wallace's exegetical grammar he discusses this form of the word.

He says that in none of the 44 occurrences in the GNT does it mean "the enjoyment of something already possessed." He lists John 6:40 as something that is acquired.

In context the acquiring is by looking on the Son and believing in him.

Thus it's conditional and not unconditional. It happens after the believing and not before as in an unconditional election before they were born.

 

[Theo1689]

John 6:40 has the subjunctive of έχω (should have). On page 465 footnote 48 in Wallace's exegetical grammar he discusses this form of the word.

He says that in none of the 44 occurrences in the GNT does it mean "the enjoyment of something already possessed."

You seem confused. The CONTEXT of this is an exegesis of a textual variant of Rom. 5:1, "let us have peace with God". This has absolutely NOTHING to do with John 6:40.

But the most significant point (that you seem to be missing) is that what we find in John 6:40 is what is called a "purpose" clause

40 τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πατρός μου, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ θεωρῶν τὸν υἱὸν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον, καὶ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐγὼ [ἐν] τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ.​

​

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”​

Now, when one has a "hina" clause, it REQUIRES the accompanying verb to be in the subjunctive mood. And the subjunctive mood in a "hina" clause does NOT indicate any level of "certainty" or "uncertainty", as the subjunctive might suggest in a different context. Wallace asserts both of these truths in his grammar as well.

Other than that, I'm not quite sure what your point is.

He lists John 6:40 as something that is acquired.

Um, yes.
Eternal ilfe is something given to us by God, upon looking upon the Son and believing.

Thus it's conditional and not unconditional.

You're going to have to explain that to us, because I'm not seeing it. Are you saying we have to look upon Christ physically, and visually? Because I've never seen Christ with my eyes.

And this opens up a whole can of worms about where our "beileving" comes from, until we study Scripture find find that faith/believing is given to us as a gift of God (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7).

And when you read four more verses ahead (v.44), you will find that the "condition" is the Father giving us to the Son.

It happens after the believing and not before as in an unconditional election before they were born.

So you reject all the Scriptures which teach, "chosen before the foundation of the world"?
Good to know.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

You seem confused. The CONTEXT of this is an exegesis of a textual variant of Rom. 5:1, "let us have peace with God". This has absolutely NOTHING to do with John 6:40.

But the most significant point (that you seem to be missing) is that what we find in John 6:40 is what is called a "purpose" clause

40 τοῦτο γάρ ἐστιν τὸ θέλημα τοῦ πατρός μου, ἵνα πᾶς ὁ θεωρῶν τὸν υἱὸν καὶ πιστεύων εἰς αὐτὸν ἔχῃ ζωὴν αἰώνιον, καὶ ἀναστήσω αὐτὸν ἐγὼ [ἐν] τῇ ἐσχάτῃ ἡμέρᾳ.​

​

40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”​

Now, when one has a "hina" clause, it REQUIRES the accompanying verb to be in the subjunctive mood. And the subjunctive mood in a "hina" clause does NOT indicate any level of "certainty" or "uncertainty", as the subjunctive might suggest in a different context. Wallace asserts both of these truths in his grammar as well.

Other than that, I'm not quite sure what your point is.



Um, yes.
Eternal ilfe is something given to us by God, upon looking upon the Son and believing.



You're going to have to explain that to us, because I'm not seeing it. Are you saying we have to look upon Christ physically, and visually? Because I've never seen Christ with my eyes.

And this opens up a whole can of worms about where our "beileving" comes from, until we study Scripture find find that faith/believing is given to us as a gift of God (Eph. 2:8, Phil. 1:29, Rom. 12:3, 2 Pet. 1:1, 1 Cor. 4:7).

And when you read four more verses ahead (v.44), you will find that the "condition" is the Father giving us to the Son.



So you reject all the Scriptures which teach, "chosen before the foundation of the world"?
Good to know.

I was speaking of the immediate context. That eternal life is contingent upon looking and believing. I'm making a grammatical argument not a contextual one.

The subjunctive form of the verb also always refers to something one acquires not something one already had. Wallace gives that commentary in the footnote gave.

It is my understanding that unconditional election happened before the world was created and is not contingent on anything.

The grammar is not consistent with unconditional election and that's my point.


I'll add Wallace's comments to make the concept clearer to you:


American Standard VersionJohn 6:40
For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should then have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day

It's a poor choice to use in support of that doctrine and in fact can be used against it.

 

[Synergy]

I'm glad you affirm the five points.

I said the exact opposite when I wrote that my verses "result in nullifying the TULIP topic that your verse finds itself under". I'll leave it up to you however you want this discussion to proceed, if at all.

 

[Synergy]

Well, if you're simply going to quote a bunch of random verses,

I'm simply following the same presentation format that Mr. Slick employed except that I declared that my verses nullify the TULIP category that I placed my verses under.

NONE of which do any damage to the "five points"...

Your pontifications are duly noted.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE ." John 6:37, "All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out."

It's true. Jesus will not cast out those who the Father gives him.

However the Father can take away those not bearing fruit as seen at John 15:1-2.

John 6:37 needs to be removed as a proof-text for irrestible grace.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

I said the exact opposite when I wrote that my verses "result in nullifying the TULIP topic that your verse finds itself under". I'll leave it up to you however you want this discussion to proceed, if at all.

That's his way of saying that he does not see the verses as you do.

 

[Roger Thornhill]

I'm simply following the same presentation format that Mr. Slick employed except that I declared that my verses nullify the TULIP category that I placed my verses under.

Your pontifications are duly noted.

I agree you don't need to give more back than you received.

The OP was a skeleton that needs flesh to make sense. Also very presuppositional.

 

[preacher4truth]

Thank you for presenting your set of verses. My intentions are to present verses that counterbalance what you're implying by the verses you forwarded for the purpose of fostering a more Biblical expansive view that results in nullifying the TULIP topic that your verse finds itself under. All of my verses are from the NKJV Bible.


(Matt 5:8) "Blessed are the pure in heart, For they shall see God."
(Matt 6:19-21) “Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20 but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21 For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
(Matt 22:37) Jesus said to him, “‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’
(Acts 2:37) Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Men and brethren, what shall we do?”

(Rom 2:14-16) for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, 15 who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them) 16 in the day when God will judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ, according to my gospel.


(Matt 19:21-22) Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.” 22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
(Acts 7:51) You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you.
(Matt 13:15) For the hearts of this people have grown dull. Their ears are hard of hearing, And their eyes they have closed, Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn, So that I should heal them.’

(John 6:45) It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.
(Rom 10:8-13) But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

(2 Pet 1:10) Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble;

(John 6:70) Jesus answered them, “Did I not choose you, the twelve, and one of you is a devil?”

(Eph 1:3-6) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.
(Eph 2:11-13) Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

(1 Tim 2:3-4) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
(2 Th 2:13) But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,

<continued to next page>

(emphasis mine)

Nothing in your opening statement, nor in "your" supplied texts begin to refute TULIP, including your "continued" list. Years have been spent in such an attempt, but to no avail.

Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[cjab]

John 6:40 has the subjunctive of έχω (should have). On page 465 footnote 48 in Wallace's exegetical grammar he discusses this form of the word.

He says that in none of the 44 occurrences in the GNT does it mean "the enjoyment of something already possessed." He lists John 6:40 as something that is acquired.

In context the acquiring is by looking on the Son and believing in him.

Thus it's conditional and not unconditional. It happens after the believing and not before as in an unconditional election before they were born.

Election is not "acquired," but before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4. It cannot be subject to any conditions, apart from what God himself conditions in election, in accordance with his foreknowledge, and which relate to his purposes. The term "unconditional election" isn't at all synonymous with "a priori conditions fulfilled, or something needing to be acquired, in order to construe oneself as elect". I find the term "unconditional election" too confusing to be in any way useful. In Jhn 15:16 is the idea that election is by not arbitrary, but mandated to fulfil God's purposes. Paul infers election creates obligations to God (1 Cor 9:16,17 etc) by imposing on the elect the discharge of a debt or trust.

 

[Synergy]

I agree you don't need to give more back than you received.

The OP was a skeleton that needs flesh to make sense. Also very presuppositional.

I mirrored Mr. Slick's presentation format because had I entered anything of my wording he could have easily accused my position of needing my presuppositional support whereas he did not offer any of his presuppositions, excepting his TULIP titles.

 

[Synergy]

(emphasis mine)

Nothing in your opening statement, nor in "your" supplied texts begin to refute TULIP, including your "continued" list.

As I mentioned to Roger already, had I entered anything of my wording to support my position, Mr. Slick could have easily accused my position of needing my presuppositional support whereas he did not offer any of his presuppositions.

Years have been spent in such an attempt, but to no avail.

Soli Deo Gloria!

I believe that the Bible must be harmonious in all it says. For all Calvinists who believe the same way, would anyone of you be interested in the explaining how Mr. Slick's list of verses and my list are harmonious? Any category (T,U,L,I, and/or P) would be fine with me.

 

[CookedGoose]

It's true. Jesus will not cast out those who the Father gives him.

Which would mean the 2nd person of the Trinity is immutable and His gifts are irrevocable.

However the Father can take away those not bearing fruit as seen at John 15:1-2.

Romans 11/29
For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

You seem to be suggesting the gifts and calling of the 1st person of the Trinity are both mutable and revocable.
Before you claim this calling is referring to groups only, or Jews only, (as Swordman would likely claim) I would suggest this......

Romans 9/24 Even us whom He called, not of the Jews only but also of the Gentiles.

So the "calling" Paul refers to in Romans 9-11 is referencing a calling on an individual basis and is not referring to the calling of Israel.

John 6:37 needs to be removed as a proof-text for irrestible grace.

 

[CookedGoose]

(emphasis mine)

Nothing in your opening statement, nor in "your" supplied texts begin to refute TULIP, including your "continued" list. Years have been spent in such an attempt, but to no avail.

Soli Deo Gloria!

"You will say to me then, why does He still find fault for who has resisted His will".

At least 2000 years now, yet Romans 9 has never changed.