Where does Scripture teach salvation comes through submission to the RC pope as claimed in the Unam Sanctum bull of pope Boniface VIII...

[Mike McK]

Everything Jesus said was said for the purpose of evangelism.

Not everything.

And the main purpose of his evangelization was and is salvation.

Catholic Jesus sounds confused.

You implied that evangelization could be conducted without mentioning salvation

Nope. I never stated nor implied any such thing.

, since you seem to see a strict separation between evangelization and soteriology.

Yep. Two different things.

You did, as I explained above.

No, I didnt. And you didn't "explain". You just claimed.

 

[Mike McK]

Here is the biblical support for repentance and therefore salvation being open to all:

2 Peter 3:9. John 3:16. John 3:36. Romans 10:9. John 5:24. Acts 16:31. Each of these six verses say that whoever believes in Jesus and his word will be saved.

No one here has argued otherwise.

As we keep trying to explain to you, it isn't that only some who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. The Bible is very clear that ALL who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

The issue is that the Bible also says carnal man cannot and will not call on the name of the Lord under his own carnal power, but must be regenerated and given the ability and will.

There is no qualification in the text or the context that shows that all of these verses were directed only at some. If anyone assumes that these texts refer only to some, they are inventing an interpretation purely to maintain their believe that salvation is not an option for everyone. In a little bit different vein, this passage is particularly relevant:

1 Timothy 2:3-4: "This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth."

Scripture says as plain as day that God our savior wills everyone to be saved. Does this mean everyone will be saved? Of course not! Just because someone can be saved and just because God desires that they be saved does not mean they will believe and be saved. If this seems puzzling that God, who is all powerful, can will something and that thing not come to pass, then consider a parent helping their child write a book report. The parent can will that the child write and excellent book report, and the parent (if they know the book very well) have the power to write the book report for their child and so get a good grade. But a good parent will not do that, even if they have the power to do it, because they want something even more. They want their child to learn good study habits and writing skills. They want the child to choose the words. And even if the child does not choose the best words, or even if the child hands in the assignment late, the good parent would rather allow the child to succeed or fail on his own than to cheat on his behalf.

Except that the u regenerate are not God's children. God is not their father.

God does want everyone to be saved.

If God wanted everyone to be saved, everyone would be saved.

But even more, He wants His creations to choose Him and love Him.

And some of them, He makes possible to choose and love Him.

 

[LifeIn]

Jesus was establishing a memorial for His coming beating and death.

He did say to do this in memory of him, but he also said first "this is my body" - the words you just cannot accept from the mouth of the savior.

You RC's make it more than it was

We take Jesus at his literal word here. You don't. It is that simple.

Your ideology singles out one scripture...

The typical excuse when faced with a Scripture passage that you find uncomfortable.

Your premise is not what RCism teaches.

No, it is what the Catholic Church teaches, because accepting Jesus and his teachings means accepting his institution of that very magisterium that you deride.

I do not claim "unqualified assurance".

That is good. I have encountered several NC's here that do claim they are absolutely assured they are saved with no ifs ands or buts (that's unqualified assurance).

God's promises are clear assurances concerning my salvation and the salvation of all of His children in His scriptures.

Yes, they are clear, and they are qualified on what people do to become His children. James gives some of those qualifications.

Your ideology though, you're right. There is no assurance. Just spray and pray and hope you don't have to spend too long in purgatory or avoid hell because of all your good works. What you believe is wrought from the very pits of hell and the father of all lies.

Name calling does not prove your point.

That is why not one of you RC's can prove RCism is the one true church...

It is impossible to prove anything to one who refuses to listen.

 

[LifeIn]

Nope. I never stated nor implied any such thing.

(this was regarding: "You implied that evangelization could be conducted without mentioning salvation")

And then we see this implication reaffirmed right here in your post when you write:

Yep. Two different things.

(regarding: "since you seem to see a strict separation between evangelization and soteriology (i.e. salvation).")

 

[LifeIn]

As we keep trying to explain to you, it isn't that only some who call on the name of the Lord will be saved. The Bible is very clear that ALL who call on the name of the Lord will be saved.

The issue is that the Bible also says carnal man cannot and will not call on the name of the Lord under his own carnal power, but must be regenerated and given the ability and will.

The Bible does not say that one must be regenerated and given the ability and will to call upon the name of the Lord. That is your invention. It is true that man can do nothing except what God has made him able to do. But it is also true that God made everyone so they ALL have the ability to turn from their carnal nature and call upon the name of the Lord. The Bible does not say that only some people have this ability. And the seven readings that I quoted confirm that. But you need to find ways to discount them, so you invent this extra-biblical qualification that only some people have.

If God wanted everyone to be saved, everyone would be saved.

You cannot prove that. God does want everyone to be saved, but only by our choice. That is why he allows us to reject Him, even though He would rather we didn't.

And some of them, He makes possible to choose and love Him.

All of them.

 

[balshan]

And I believe the verses we've provided you with show that it does.



And we have shown you from scripture that carnal man is both incapable and unwilling to do this until he is regenerated.



You're right. It says nobody has this ability.


Actually, none of the verses you cited say that.



First, you're lying. I never said some people have that ability. I said NO ONE has that ability, that it is something God has to do.

I've explained this to you several times now. I don't know of you're that dishonest, or just that dumb.

Second, that several of us have shown you these things from scripture means it is not extra-Biblical.

The Bible verses we've already provided for you prove it.

The Bible says otherwise.

Oh, poor pathetic Catholic god.

Well, clearly your religion believes that.

But we're Christians, so we don't care what your religion believes.

Nope. You're still a liar. Stating that evangelism and so terminology are two different things in no way implies that we don't talk about salvation in evangelism.

Oh how RCs like to make up what they wished we had said and never did. They do the same with scripture.

 

[David1701]

Well, your idea of a "biblical teaching" may be different from mine, even when we reference the same Bible. But for one example, I cite the most famous NT passage in Scripture - the one that often appears behind home plate at baseball games - John 3:16: "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life." I already know what your arguments are against it, so I will save you the trouble of make them. You may say that John is not referring the the everyone in the world, but only to the elect, and that "whoever" also refers only to the elect. My response is that such an argument is "begging the question" or "circular logic." That's where you assume what you are trying to prove in order to prove it. Of course that logic is false because when proving something you have to start out assuming the possibility that what you are trying to prove is not true. The most straightforward way to understand John 3:16 is that it applies to everyone. "Whoever" means "whoever", without qualification. It does not whoever among the elect believes in him. That would not make sense, for if they are among the elect, they have already been assured eternal life and they will not perish. There would be no need for John 3:16 if it only applied to the elect. But my main reason for believing that anyone can repent is the absence of any Biblical teaching to the contrary. Nowhere in the Bible is it taught that the option for repentance is denied by God to anyone that He created. This is why we evangelize. It is because anyone we speak to has the potential to repent, and we can confidently tell that person that he can repent. We could not say that if we thought that perhaps the way to repentance is closed to him.

You obviously don't know my arguments against your misuse of John 3:16, the main one of which is that it doesn't even address the issue of man's innate unwillingness, and, therefore, inability, to turn from sin to faith in Jesus Christ. In other words, John 3:16 is completely irrelevant to our discussion.

You have also made several other crass errors:

1) You have assumed that I believe that "whoever" refers only to the elect. I don't believe that, nor do I know anyone who does. It refers to those to whom it says it refers - " whoever believes". The question of election is not addressed in this verse at all.

2) You have claimed that the "most straightforward" way to understand John 3:16 is that it applies to everyone; but the verse itself states that this is not the case! It refers to the subset of humanity who believe, not to everyone without exception.

3) You have claimed that "whoever" means "whoever", without qualification. This is either an incredibly stupid statement, or it is disingenuous, I'm unsure which. The verse itself provides a qualifier, immediately following the word "whoever"; that qualifier is "believes".

It gets worse, since "whoever" is itself a limiting word, especially when accompanied by a qualifier like "believes". The expression "whoever believes", clearly and obviously, refers to the relatively small subset of humanity who come to believe in Jesus Christ. By definition, it does not refer to every single person in the world.

4) You have claimed that there is no biblical teaching that not everyone can repent. This is untrue (have you ever done a search for "repent" and "repentance", in the Bible; if so, you will find that repentance is a gift from God, and, obviously, not everyone has it).

5) You have claimed that the "option" to repent is not denied to anyone; but, this is irrelevant, since the existence of an option does not mean that one has the willingness and/or ability to take that option.

6) You have claimed that the reason why we evangelise is that everyone has the option to repent. This is also untrue. Do a search for the biblical reasons for evangelism and you will find that there are several; but, having the option to repent is not one of them.

Here are some of the biblical reasons to evangelise:

A) The Lord commands it.
B) Preaching the gospel honours the Lord.
C) It is the main means that God uses to save people.
D) We should want to spread the gospel.

Your post is a prime example of what often happens, when trying to discuss biblical issues with Roman Catholics: they don't know enough about the Bible to be able to discuss it properly, because it's not the focus of that organisation, nor most individuals within it.

 

[Mike McK]

Oh how RCs like to make up what they wished we had said and never did. They do the same with scripture.

Yeah, he's clearly just trolling. I don't know why trolling is allowed here, but we're clearly just casting pearls before swine now.

 

[LifeIn]

You obviously don't know my arguments against your misuse of John 3:16, the main one of which is that it doesn't even address the issue of man's innate unwillingness, and, therefore, inability, to turn from sin to faith in Jesus Christ.

That is not Biblical. Man does have an innate inclination to sin, but God made everyone with the ability to overcome this innate inclination and repent. That's Catholic teaching and that's Biblical. John 3:16 proves you wrong, as do the other Scriptures I cited.

You have also made several other crass errors:

1) You have assumed that I believe that "whoever" refers only to the elect. I don't believe that, nor do I know anyone who does. It refers to those to whom it says it refers - " whoever believes". The question of election is not addressed in this verse at all.

Regardless of what you believe, "whoever" refers to anyone.

2) You have claimed that the "most straightforward" way to understand John 3:16 is that it applies to everyone; but the verse itself states that this is not the case! It refers to the subset of humanity who believe, not to everyone without exception.

No, it does refer to everyone, but the subset referred to are those that do choose to believe in Jesus. No one is prevented from believing in Jesus. The Bible does not say otherwise.

3) You have claimed that "whoever" means "whoever", without qualification.

The qualification is what follows the "whoever". "whoever believes".

This is either an incredibly stupid statement, or it is disingenuous, I'm unsure which. The verse itself provides a qualifier, immediately following the word "whoever"; that qualifier is "believes".

Of course. I never said that everyone was saved!

It gets worse, since "whoever" is itself a limiting word, especially when accompanied by a qualifier like "believes". The expression "whoever believes", clearly and obviously, refers to the relatively small subset of humanity who come to believe in Jesus Christ. By definition, it does not refer to every single person in the world.

You are belaboring the obvious. I understand this, and I never said otherwise.

4) You have claimed that there is no biblical teaching that not everyone can repent. This is untrue (have you ever done a search for "repent" and "repentance", in the Bible; if so, you will find that repentance is a gift from God, and, obviously, not everyone has it).

It is a gift from God, and everyone has it by the way God made us. This is Catholic teaching, and it is Biblical.

5) You have claimed that the "option" to repent is not denied to anyone; but, this is irrelevant, since the existence of an option does not mean that one has the willingness and/or ability to take that option.

Perhaps they don't have the willingness. That would be their fault for not being willing. But if they don't have the ability, then they don't really have the option, do they? So if they really do have the option, then by definition they have the ability.

6) You have claimed that the reason why we evangelise is that everyone has the option to repent.

I have claimed that everyone has the option to repent, but I have not stated that this is the reason why we evangelize.

Here are some of the biblical reasons to evangelise:

A) The Lord commands it.
B) Preaching the gospel honours the Lord.
C) It is the main means that God uses to save people.
D) We should want to spread the gospel.

How about adding this one:

E) Evangelism is an act of love. Love must be the defining characteristic of every follower of Jesus Christ. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, so anyone who walks in the Spirit will demonstrate love in dealing with people. We possess the best news in the world, and love propels us to share it with those who haven’t heard. Love wants everyone to have a chance to respond to God’s offer of salvation.

 

[balshan]

That is not Biblical. Man does have an innate inclination to sin, but God made everyone with the ability to overcome this innate inclination and repent. That's Catholic teaching and that's Biblical. John 3:16 proves you wrong, as do the other Scriptures I cited.



Regardless of what you believe, "whoever" refers to anyone.


No, it does refer to everyone, but the subset referred to are those that do choose to believe in Jesus. No one is prevented from believing in Jesus. The Bible does not say otherwise.


The qualification is what follows the "whoever". "whoever believes".



Of course. I never said that everyone was saved!



You are belaboring the obvious. I understand this, and I never said otherwise.



It is a gift from God, and everyone has it by the way God made us. This is Catholic teaching, and it is Biblical.


Perhaps they don't have the willingness. That would be their fault for not being willing. But if they don't have the ability, then they don't really have the option, do they? So if they really do have the option, then by definition they have the ability.


I have claimed that everyone has the option to repent, but I have not stated that this is the reason why we evangelize.


How about adding this one:

E) Evangelism is an act of love. Love must be the defining characteristic of every follower of Jesus Christ. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, so anyone who walks in the Spirit will demonstrate love in dealing with people. We possess the best news in the world, and love propels us to share it with those who haven’t heard. Love wants everyone to have a chance to respond to God’s offer of salvation.

There is only one way to overcome sin. RCs do the so called RC repentance, then they go out and repeat. So that way s not the RC way. We have all seen how RCs love on these threads.

 

[Buzzard]

//
.

It is impossible to prove anything to one who refuses to listen.

LifeIn says
It is impossible to prove anything to one who refuses to listen.
.
Arch says
**Clement speaks of Rome "turning its attention" to the problems of Corinth,
=========================================end quote
.
as we all know; amongest that 1st day Church,
there were False Apostles, deceitful workers
teaching "Damable Heresies"
"and Peter was to be blamed"
men of your ownselves to draw away disciple after themselves
I shouldn't have to do a 100,000 character post
to show you these things
But; I will say this
.
Posters;
Moses and the Prophets
is your Wall built with tempered mortor
so tightly fit togather
that there can not be found,
even One ( 1 ) Breach in it
a Hedge of thorns,
that even the Wolves cannot get through;
.

because of all the things I just said​

"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine,​

and doeth them,​

(because of all the things Christ just said)​

I will liken him unto a wise man,​

which built his house upon a rock:"​

.
your house build on the words of Christ
.
Memorize the Sermon on the Mount
==================================================

Moses; Gen. ch.24
Paul, sent to get the Bride
.

the servant​

"that ruled over all that he had, "​

Gen. ch. 24​

.
we have gone thru this before
.
"And Rebekah arose, and her damsels,
and they rode upon the camels,
and followed the man: and the servant took Rebekah,
and went his way."
.
And Rebekah lifted up her eyes, and when she saw Isaac,
(she asks, who is this Man; it your husband Rebekah))
And the servant told Isaac all things that he had done.
And Isaac brought her into his mother Sarah's tent,
and took Rebekah, and she became his wife;

--------The Corinthians / The Bride -------​

​

2Cor.11:2​

I have espoused you to one husband,​

that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.​

.​

But I fear, lest by any means,​

as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty,​

-----Yea; hath God said----​

so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.​

​

..​

Paul tells them of these men that​

"Exalt themselves"​

.​

[indent]​

For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,​

transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.​

And no marvel;​

for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.​

​

Therefore it is no great thing​

if his (Satan and his minions) ministers also be​

transformed as the ministers of righteousness;​

whose end shall be according to their works.[/indent]​

.​

as we all know;​

Paul warned them of the old serpent,​

and his seed​

"Yea; Hath God said"​

and Rome is always telling us​

They are as God​

"knowing good from evil"​

.​

The First Epistle of Clement​

The letter is a response to events in Corinth,​

where the congregation had deposed certain elders ​

​

and I partly beleive it to be so​

for it came at the correct time​

approx 130 +/- AD when the Nic's were everywhere in the church​

.​

Rev.2​

But this thou hast, that thou hatest the deeds of the Nicolaitanes,​

which I also hate..​

....​

I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty,​

(but thou art rich)​

and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews,​

and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.​

..​

also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitanes,​

which thing I hate.​

​

it seems the Corinthians had kicked out a few of these​

minions of Satan's sent from Rome​

and these minions of Satan's screemed​

to the Seat of Satan for help​

​

help us;​

the Bride won't listen to us​

Hellllppppppppppp,​

they won't here us​

in fact they booted us out of the church​

​

so Clement writes​

​

Arch says

**Clement speaks of Rome "turning its attention" to the problems of Corinth, thus implying that Rome routinely instructed the other churches. And he also praises the faith of the Corinthians in a universal context -- a context he could only invoke if Rome had universal jurisdiction. And, Clement continues:​

​

"Your schism has subverted [the faith of] many, has discouraged many, has given rise to doubt in many, and has caused grief to us all. And still your sedition continueth." (First Clement, Chapter 46)​

​

Here, Clement speaks on behalf of the universal Church in condemning the Corinthian schism. And, he goes on:​

​

"Ye, therefore, who laid the foundation of this sedition, submit yourselves to the presbyters, and receive correction so as to repent, bending the knees of your hearts. Learn to be subject, laying aside the proud and arrogant self-confidence of your tongue." (First Clement, Chapter 57)​

=========================================end quote​

LifeIn says​

It is impossible to prove anything to one who refuses to listen.

LifeIn said:
It is impossible to prove anything to one who refuses to listen.

.​

Ahhhh Lifein,​

the bride hears the Voice of the Bridegroom​

she won't / doesn't listen to those Satan speaks thru​

 

[David1701]

That is not Biblical. Man does have an innate inclination to sin, but God made everyone with the ability to overcome this innate inclination and repent. That's Catholic teaching and that's Biblical. John 3:16 proves you wrong, as do the other Scriptures I cited.

What you say might be RC teaching, but it is certainly not biblical!

The Bible's description of fallen man shows that there is nothing within him that wants to turn from sin to God; not only that, but the Bible clearly teaches that repentance is a gift from God that not everyone is given.

2 Tim. 2:24-26 (VW)
24 Besides, a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance unto a full true knowledge of the truth,
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Regardless of what you believe, "whoever" refers to anyone.

But it's not "whoever", is it? It's "whoever believes", as any child could tell you. I simply do not believe that you lack the intelligence to understand this. The implication is clear - you are being disingenuous.

There's more: a literal translation would not be "whoever believes"; rather, it would read, "...everyone believing into him...", which completely knocks out your misinterpretation.

No, it does refer to everyone, but the subset referred to are those that do choose to believe in Jesus. No one is prevented from believing in Jesus. The Bible does not say otherwise.

The Bible never says that believing in Jesus is caused by fallen man's choice!

The Bible does say that the world hates Jesus, hates the Light and will not come to it, does not fear God, is hostile towards God and cannot please him, etc.. In other words, the Bible clearly states that fallen man's innate proclivities prevent him from believing in Jesus; hence the need to be born again, to perceive and enter the Kingdom of God through faith in Jesus Christ (John 3 - Jesus to Nicodemus).

Of course. I never said that everyone was saved!

That, of course, was not the issue. The issue was that you claimed that "whoever" only means "anyone", without qualification. I simply proved you wrong, since there is a qualifying word immediately after "whoever", in Jn. 3:16.

You are belaboring the obvious. I understand this, and I never said otherwise.

LOL! Desperate backpedalling...

It is a gift from God, and everyone has it by the way God made us. This is Catholic teaching, and it is Biblical.

It might be RC teaching that everyone naturally has repentance; but, the Bible (and observation) say otherwise. Notice that the gift is repentance itself, not some mere ability to repent.

2 Tim. 2:24-26 (VW)
24 Besides, a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance unto a full true knowledge of the truth,
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

Perhaps they don't have the willingness. That would be their fault for not being willing. But if they don't have the ability, then they don't really have the option, do they? So if they really do have the option, then by definition they have the ability.

Two points:

1) If someone is intrinsically unwilling to do something, then that unwillingness renders him unable (moral inability, rather than physical or mental inability).

2) Options are objective, and irrespective of a person's ability. There might be a diverging path, with options to walk in various directions, but although those options exist, a person without legs cannot walk along the paths.

I have claimed that everyone has the option to repent, but I have not stated that this is the reason why we evangelize.

Please tell the truth.

Here is what you posted.

"This is why we evangelize. It is because anyone we speak to has the potential to repent, and we can confidently tell that person that he can repent. We could not say that if we thought that perhaps the way to repentance is closed to him."

- Where does Scripture teach salvation comes through submission to the RC pope as claimed in the Unam Sanctum bull of pope Boniface VIII...

You clearly have no clue what regeneration even is and are just talking to hear the sound of your own voice. I never brought up regeneration. You did. So whether is understand what you mean by that word or not, it does not change the fact that repentance is possible for anyone.

forums.carm.org

How about adding this one:

E) Evangelism is an act of love. Love must be the defining characteristic of every follower of Jesus Christ. It is a fruit of the Holy Spirit, so anyone who walks in the Spirit will demonstrate love in dealing with people. We possess the best news in the world, and love propels us to share it with those who haven’t heard. Love wants everyone to have a chance to respond to God’s offer of salvation.

Finally, something I can agree with!

 

[David1701]

Here is the biblical support for repentance and therefore salvation being open to all:

2 Peter 3:9. John 3:16. John 3:36. Romans 10:9. John 5:24. Acts 16:31. Each of these six verses say that whoever believes in Jesus and his word will be saved. There is no qualification in the text or the context that shows that all of these verses were directed only at some. If anyone assumes that these texts refer only to some, they are inventing an interpretation purely to maintain their believe that salvation is not an option for everyone. In a little bit different vein, this passage is particularly relevant:

1 Timothy 2:3-4: "This is good and pleasing to God our savior, who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth."

Scripture says as plain as day that God our savior wills everyone to be saved. Does this mean everyone will be saved? Of course not! Just because someone can be saved and just because God desires that they be saved does not mean they will believe and be saved. If this seems puzzling that God, who is all powerful, can will something and that thing not come to pass, then consider a parent helping their child write a book report. The parent can will that the child write and excellent book report, and the parent (if they know the book very well) have the power to write the book report for their child and so get a good grade. But a good parent will not do that, even if they have the power to do it, because they want something even more. They want their child to learn good study habits and writing skills. They want the child to choose the words. And even if the child does not choose the best words, or even if the child hands in the assignment late, the good parent would rather allow the child to succeed or fail on his own than to cheat on his behalf. God does want everyone to be saved. But even more, He wants His creations to choose Him and love Him. This is the only way to reconcile 1 Timothy 2:3-4 with the fact that not everyone will be saved.

Everyone who believes in Jesus will be saved; BUT, not everyone is given the gift of faith (Eph. 2:8-10; 2 Thess. 3:2, etc.).

Regarding 1 Tim. 2: below is the context.

1 Tim. 2:1-6 (Webster)
1 I exhort therefore, that first of all supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

From verses 1 and 2, it is clear that the "all men" are all categories of men, not every individual.

 

[WilliamC]

There is only one way to overcome sin. RCs do the so called RC repentance, then they go out and repeat. So that way s not the RC way. We have all seen how RCs love on these threads.

They love you to DEATH!

 

[Lastdaysbeliever]

He did say to do this in memory of him, but he also said first "this is my body" - the words you just cannot accept from the mouth of the savior.

That is why I reject RCism's communion and "transubstantiation". The last supper and communion is to be a memorial, just as Passover was a memorial for all Jews as a remembrance of their flight from Egypt, and communion is just that, a remembrance, a memorial of what Jesus accomplished on the cross and communion does not impart grace. No grace was imparted at the last supper and no grace is imparted at communion except in the minds of RC's who eat the living flesh of their god and drink their god's blood.

We take Jesus at his literal word here. You don't. It is that simple.

This is not true. You take your leaders, not Jesus, at their literal word because you are not allowed to read and understand Scripture, outside of what you are told. That is evidence of the lack of the Holy Spirit in the hearts of RC's.

The typical excuse when faced with a Scripture passage that you find uncomfortable.

And here you go again making a claim about my "feelings". I read the whole of Scripture and look to other Scripture as support for theological claims. Testing what I'm told by His written word. That is why James' comment, when illuminated by other Scripture, is clearly NOT what RCism teaches, that works are required for salvation. Works are a testament to our faith, that before we were born again we were about nothing but evil but now, after repenting of our sin, accepting Jesus as our Lord and Savior (grace and faith) and being baptized in the Holy Spirit who leads us into all truth, we pursue good works to the glory of God, not ourselves. Remember, we are saved by grace, through faith and not by works lest we boast. RC's boast of their works on a continuum, ad infinitum, ad nauseum which is a direct contradiction of Scripture using James as justification for ignoring the whole of Scripture and God's offering of His unmerited favor, His grace, for their own efforts to earn their way to heaven. Well, after believing all those works you do ends up with you in a no-one-knows how long stay in purgatory if not hell.

No, it is what the Catholic Church teaches,

RCism teaches heretical theology.

because accepting Jesus and his teachings means accepting his institution of that very magisterium that you deride.

But the thing is RC's don't accept Jesus' teachings but believe a system of theology the children of God are warned about. You are yoked to a false religion.

That is good. I have encountered several NC's here that do claim they are absolutely assured they are saved with no ifs ands or buts (that's unqualified assurance).

You are purposefully misrepresenting what I wrote. Visitors and lurkers, beware of what this quoted poster is attempting to do.

Yes, they are clear, and they are qualified on what people do to become His children. James gives some of those qualifications.

I do not advocate any works for salvation. There is nothing, no thing, we can do to earn our salvation. Gods' grace, through faith saves. That and that alone.

Name calling does not prove your point.

Calling out satan and the RC institution is not name calling. It is exposing who created your religious belief system and its purveyors, false teachers, like you.

It is impossible to prove anything to one who refuses to listen.

Your words are nothing more then attempts at confusion and division for the uneducated and ignorant of Scripture. Read Scripture. Within those pages of God's inspired writing you will find all the truth you need for salvation which is grace, through faith and not of works, lest we boast. Not in a 3 legged false religious, works required, heterodoxic belief system that is Roman Catholicism.

 

[LifeIn]

The Bible's description of fallen man shows that there is nothing within him that wants to turn from sin to God; not only that, but the Bible clearly teaches that repentance is a gift from God that not everyone is given.

2 Tim. 2:24-26 (VW)
24 Besides, a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient,
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance unto a full true knowledge of the truth,
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

If you think this passage shows that repentance is not the result of man's choice you are drawing more from it than is actually there. Here Timothy is expressing a prayer to God someone come to their senses. That does not mean the choice is not theirs to make. Don't we make prayers like that too? A mother may pray that her daughter choose to stop using drugs. Does that mean she expects God to take control of the daughter and force her to come to that decision? No. The mother is just pouring out her heart to God about what she hopes will happen. The mother still understands that the daughter will have to make this decision of her own free will. So it is with Timothy in this passage. He is pouring out his heart to God, expressing the hope that those who quarrel will see the error of their ways and repent - of their own free will.

But it's not "whoever", is it? It's "whoever believes",

Of course, but the implication is still that the person chooses to believe or not believe. And before he has made that choice (which is open to everyone) he could be anyone whatsoever.

The Bible never says that believing in Jesus is caused by fallen man's choice!

The act of believing is an act of will, therefore by definition, man's choice.

The Bible does say that the world hates Jesus, hates the Light and will not come to it, does not fear God, is hostile towards God and cannot please him, etc.. In other words, the Bible clearly states that fallen man's innate proclivities prevent him from believing in Jesus;

You are confusing the general tendency of the world ("the world hates Jesus") with the choices of individuals in that world.

It might be RC teaching that everyone naturally has repentance; but, the Bible (and observation) say otherwise. Notice that the gift is repentance itself, not some mere ability to repent.

I never said the ability to repent was "mere", and I never said it was not also a gift from God. My claim was that this gift is offered to all.

Two points:

1) If someone is intrinsically unwilling to do something, then that unwillingness renders him unable (moral inability, rather than physical or mental inability).

But you have not established that man is intrinsically unwilling to love God. You are just assuming that some men (or maybe all men?) are unable.

2) Options are objective, and irrespective of a person's ability.

If that ability is granted or not granted by factors external to that man, then denying the man the ability is the same as denying him the option. For example, I place you on a desert island and give you the option of escaping by a rowboat that I have anchored 100 feet off shore. So you have that objective option to escape. But I also chain you to a palm tree so that you do not have the ability to reach the boat. Did I really give you an option? Of course not.

There might be a diverging path, with options to walk in various directions, but although those options exist, a person without legs cannot walk along the paths.

That example is just my my example above. I would say that if God made me without legs, then He didn't really give me the option.

Please tell the truth.

Here is what you posted.

"This is why we evangelize. It is because anyone we speak to has the potential to repent, and we can confidently tell that person that he can repent. We could not say that if we thought that perhaps the way to repentance is closed to him."

It is an enabling reason why we evangelize, but it is not the only reason.

Finally, something I can agree with!

Even the part I bolded? "Love wants everyone to have a chance to respond to God’s offer of salvation." That sounds again like an invitation from God, which is why I posted it.

 

[Atemi]

He did say to do this in memory of him, but he also said first "this is my body" - the words you just cannot accept from the mouth of the savior

Christ followers indeed accept them, just as they accept all of Christ's figurative language.

We take Jesus at his literal word here. You don't. It is that simple.

No you don't. Christ said the contents of the cup was wine. You do not take Him literally.

He also said the body and blood are different elements. Catholics often skip the wine, and for a time, it was not even offered by your priests. You do not take Him literally.

He says eating His body guarantees eternal life. You do not take Him literally.

Christ Himself....at the Table....says He has been speaking to them figuratively. You do not take Him literally.

accepting Jesus and his teachings means accepting his institution of that very magisterium that you deride.

Our Lord nowhere endorsed your sect leaders anywhere in Scripture. Christ emphatically condemned any of His people being called a Magisterium. You do not take Him literally and you disobey Him.

Telling us that He wants us to do what He explicitly prohibited is devilish.

Yes, they are clear

Like where God says everyone who consumes Him is guaranteed eternal life.

Catholics think they have better ideas....like doing works and sacraments and pretending they deserve it.

 

[LifeIn]

No you don't. Christ said the contents of the cup was wine. You do not take Him literally.

I assume you are referring to Mark 14:25 where Jesus says "Amen, I say to you, I shall not drink again the fruit of the vine until the day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God." This does not say the wine that he declared was his blood was still wine. He was referring to what he was NOT going to do, which is to drink of the fruit of vine until he drinks it in the Kingdom of heaven. In fact the Gospel doesn't even say that Jesus drank from this cup at the last supper either. It just says he "..took a cup, gave thanks, and gave it to them, and they all drank from it."

He also said the body and blood are different elements. Catholics often skip the wine, and for a time, it was not even offered by your priests. You do not take Him literally.

How is taking communion in only one species indicative of not taking him literally?

He says eating His body guarantees eternal life. You do not take Him literally.

He did not say eating his body (or drinking his blood) guarantees eternal life. He said "for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins." He is saying that the purpose of his shedding his blood was for the forgiveness of sins, but he did not say that forgiveness and subsequent salvation was automatic after that.

 

[LifeIn]

Christ Himself....at the Table....says He has been speaking to them figuratively. You do not take Him literally.

If you are still speaking of the Last Supper, I truly don't know what you are referring to when you say Jesus tells his friends he has been speaking figuratively.

Our Lord nowhere endorsed your sect leaders anywhere in Scripture.

Our Lord selected those very leaders when he chose the Apostles to speak for him, just as he chose profits in the OT to speak for him then.

Christ emphatically condemned any of His people being called a Magisterium.

I don't think that word existed, so I doubt that he would condemn anyone for being called that.

Telling us that He wants us to do what He explicitly prohibited is devilish.

We must be careful how we pass judgement on God. You must admit that child sacrifice is devilish, right? Stop and think about that for a minute to make sure you agree. OK? Done considering that? Now tell me how you judge God who commanded a child sacrifice when He told Abraham to sacrifice his only son, Isaac? If Abraham were thinking like you, he might have thought "That couldn't God telling me to do that because it is devilish! No way am I going through with this!".

 

[Mike McK]

There is only one way to overcome sin. RCs do the so called RC repentance, then they go out and repeat. So that way s not the RC way. We have all seen how RCs love on these threads.

Catholics love Jesus like O.J. loved Nicole.